As for taking 40mins to inspect and weight 6 bikes, that's 6.6 minutes per bike which seems about right for just a weigh-in? Could you call 6 riders bikes over, weight each bike, record the weight, return the bike in less than 6.6 minutes or want to?
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I dont know why you think the wheels are weighed.
Verdy and the French police where not allowed to weight the wheels of the team sky tt bikes in 2015.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-investigates-hidden-motors-and-pro-cycling/
A heavy bike doesn’t prove anything on its own but to Greg LeMond the weight difference should have set off alarm bells. In this case, sources told us, the sport’s governing body would not allow French investigators to remove the Team Sky wheels and weigh them separately to determine if the wheels were enhanced. LeMond said not enough is being done by the International Cycling Union to prevent cheating with motors.
Why would you need more than 30s per bike to weigh them? The bikes are being brought by mechanics or managers who wait for the UCI to check them.
The 60 minutes program was nonsense. They simply took Varjas telling LeMond his motor weighed a claimed 800g and then later the French Police saying UCI weight Sky's 2015 Bolide was 800g heavier than others and tried to make out the 800g was a motor. This year, the 2016 Bolide weights 350g less. What is LeMond and 60 Mins going to say this year? That the Varjas's motor has gone on a 350g diet? It's complete nonsense, especially for massively aero TT bikes. Prove the fact on a mountain stage set of Sky bikes and it might be worth looking into 800g heavier bikes for Sky.
As for less inspection time being more credible, if you think weights are being added in that time, why not simply wrote 6.8kg on a riders record which would take even less time? The amount of effort UCI goes to, it just seems a very good act when you see it in the flesh. Too slick and realistic for me to think it's all pretend and a cover-up anyway.
As for less inspection time being more credible, if you think weights are being added in that time, why not simply wrote 6.8kg on a riders record which would take even less time? The amount of effort UCI goes to, it just seems a very good act when you see it in the flesh. Too slick and realistic for me to think it's all pretend and a cover-up anyway.
I was not talking about Lemond but about Jean Piere Verdy.
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/01/french-anti-doping-expert-says-he-was-told-a-dozen-riders-used-motors-during-the-2015-tour-de-france/
I guess the Barfield emails are also nonsense .
https://cyclingtips.com/2016/06/hidden-motors-uci-technical-manager-accused-of-alerting-others-to-police-operations/
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/01/french-anti-doping-expert-says-he-was-told-a-dozen-riders-used-motors-during-the-2015-tour-de-france/
I guess the Barfield emails are also nonsense .
https://cyclingtips.com/2016/06/hidden-motors-uci-technical-manager-accused-of-alerting-others-to-police-operations/
Re: Re:
What I take issue with, however, is the claim that Slovenia is a country with no cycling tradition. That's simply a falsehood, I'm afraid. Throughout the history of Yugoslavia, the majority of its cycling interest was in Slovenia and northern Croatia, and indeed that's where most of the country's best cyclists come from, dating back to August Prosinek, a pre-war winner of the Tour de Yugoslavie whose career was interrupted by conflict before returning to win the first Peace Race. The national race often had its most selective stages in Slovenia for obvious reasons and was regarded as one of the toughest races in the Eastern Bloc for that reason. Yugoslavia's non-aligned status in the Warsaw Pact days meant that you'd sometimes get Yugoslav riders - mostly Slovenes - get to do a few races not available to the other Ostbloc nations, such as myriad Italian one-day races. The likes of Primož Čerin (top 20 in the Giro in the mid 80s), Bojan Ropret, the Valenčič family and Jure Pavlić had some success in the pre-Wende days, but even since then, there's plenty of evidence of Slovenia's presence as a cycling nation, with plenty of incursions into the Italian scene as well as a number of riders who've top 10ed GTs, won major stage races and stages of GTs and performed well in Classics once the cycling world of western Europe was opened up to them for the first time - Brajkovič, Bole, Špilak, Hauptman, Mezgeč, Božič, Hvastija, Štangelj.
Don't mistake a lack of major successes in races they by and large weren't able to access for a lack of cycling tradition.
Ski jumping requires good aerodynamics and strong leg muscles - the real surprise is that the type of use of leg muscles is so different for the type of rider that Rogla is, because the effort in ski jumping is so explosive.sniper said:
What I take issue with, however, is the claim that Slovenia is a country with no cycling tradition. That's simply a falsehood, I'm afraid. Throughout the history of Yugoslavia, the majority of its cycling interest was in Slovenia and northern Croatia, and indeed that's where most of the country's best cyclists come from, dating back to August Prosinek, a pre-war winner of the Tour de Yugoslavie whose career was interrupted by conflict before returning to win the first Peace Race. The national race often had its most selective stages in Slovenia for obvious reasons and was regarded as one of the toughest races in the Eastern Bloc for that reason. Yugoslavia's non-aligned status in the Warsaw Pact days meant that you'd sometimes get Yugoslav riders - mostly Slovenes - get to do a few races not available to the other Ostbloc nations, such as myriad Italian one-day races. The likes of Primož Čerin (top 20 in the Giro in the mid 80s), Bojan Ropret, the Valenčič family and Jure Pavlić had some success in the pre-Wende days, but even since then, there's plenty of evidence of Slovenia's presence as a cycling nation, with plenty of incursions into the Italian scene as well as a number of riders who've top 10ed GTs, won major stage races and stages of GTs and performed well in Classics once the cycling world of western Europe was opened up to them for the first time - Brajkovič, Bole, Špilak, Hauptman, Mezgeč, Božič, Hvastija, Štangelj.
Don't mistake a lack of major successes in races they by and large weren't able to access for a lack of cycling tradition.
Greg Lemond was a freestyle skier before he became a cyclist. Also from (at the time) a non-cycling nation. *Shrug*. No argument can be made he wasn't a talent. Won the first 11 races he entered, etc. There are plenty of examples. Some people are just really good athletes. What someone did before they started cycling doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what they are capable of as a cyclist.
Now if Roglič had been a cyclist for years and never shown the ability to climb or TT, that would in fact be particularly suspicious. I don't see where's he's any more or less suspicious because he used to be a ski jumper or that he's from Slovenia.
That he was at the sharp end of this very fast race is plenty suspicious enough. I would like to see more on his climbing times, but IMO anyone at the sharp end warrants suspicion. His progression within the context of a doped sport is "reasonable".
Now if Roglič had been a cyclist for years and never shown the ability to climb or TT, that would in fact be particularly suspicious. I don't see where's he's any more or less suspicious because he used to be a ski jumper or that he's from Slovenia.
That he was at the sharp end of this very fast race is plenty suspicious enough. I would like to see more on his climbing times, but IMO anyone at the sharp end warrants suspicion. His progression within the context of a doped sport is "reasonable".
Re:
I wouldn't believe a word Verdy says. His public statements make less sense than Brailsfords. He claims 'they' told me 12 riders were using motors in 2012, but then later says it's 12 riders in 2015 Tour using them and he been told 3-4 years before. Why did he keep it to himself for 3-4 years until French Police tried to weigh Sky's wheels? Even today his only input is a statement claiming 'they' told me motors exist since 2010/11 and from 2014 to 2015 'everyone' was complaining to him about motors in the peloton. Who are 'they' and who is 'everyone' and why are 'they' complaining to a retired French anti-doping official who does nothing for 4 years about it anyway up until a couple of TV shows get aired and the years corresponds to when Sky started winning Tour? It sounds like 'they' and 'everyone' are simply two main French teams, so his story is nonsense unless he can say who everyone and they are, otherwise it's just baseless accusations so far.
LeMond, Verdy & Varjas, Typhoon, Barfield etc etc - it all relates to French Police wanting to weight Sky's wheels because Varjas had told them and Kathy LeMond his special motorized hubs weight 800g. Low and behold, French police claimed their bikes weighed 800g more than all the other teams bikes, yet Verdy has already said 12 riders were using them the year before. Did the other 3 riders not bring them next year? Are less and less riders using them despite Verdy also claiming speeds up the mountains are increasing every year? Until someone comes up with something, i'd claim it's all simple nationalistic jealousy towards Sky manifesting itself in various ways. Why does it all keep meeting a dead end? Even the French Government turned down requests to make mechanical doping illegal in January this year. It's all nonsense to me until I see something not simply an accusation.
Tienus said:
I wouldn't believe a word Verdy says. His public statements make less sense than Brailsfords. He claims 'they' told me 12 riders were using motors in 2012, but then later says it's 12 riders in 2015 Tour using them and he been told 3-4 years before. Why did he keep it to himself for 3-4 years until French Police tried to weigh Sky's wheels? Even today his only input is a statement claiming 'they' told me motors exist since 2010/11 and from 2014 to 2015 'everyone' was complaining to him about motors in the peloton. Who are 'they' and who is 'everyone' and why are 'they' complaining to a retired French anti-doping official who does nothing for 4 years about it anyway up until a couple of TV shows get aired and the years corresponds to when Sky started winning Tour? It sounds like 'they' and 'everyone' are simply two main French teams, so his story is nonsense unless he can say who everyone and they are, otherwise it's just baseless accusations so far.
LeMond, Verdy & Varjas, Typhoon, Barfield etc etc - it all relates to French Police wanting to weight Sky's wheels because Varjas had told them and Kathy LeMond his special motorized hubs weight 800g. Low and behold, French police claimed their bikes weighed 800g more than all the other teams bikes, yet Verdy has already said 12 riders were using them the year before. Did the other 3 riders not bring them next year? Are less and less riders using them despite Verdy also claiming speeds up the mountains are increasing every year? Until someone comes up with something, i'd claim it's all simple nationalistic jealousy towards Sky manifesting itself in various ways. Why does it all keep meeting a dead end? Even the French Government turned down requests to make mechanical doping illegal in January this year. It's all nonsense to me until I see something not simply an accusation.
Great background information, Libertine, that's impressive knowledge, thanks for taking time to write it down, much appreciated.
And point taken of course!
Red, good post, a very appropriate parallel with Lemond.
Point taken here, too.
And point taken of course!
Red, good post, a very appropriate parallel with Lemond.
Point taken here, too.
Re: Re:
Well said, just a correction though, Yugoslavia was never an "Eastern Bloc" country. As you pointed out, it was a member of the non-alignment movement (a founding member at that), and didn't align itself with either the Soviets or the Americans. Its economy was better and the living standard was higher than the Soviet Union and its satellites. People could travel freely to and from the country. Plenty of tourists in the country, plenty of foreign exchange students, foreign workers and Yugoslavia made a few labour deals in the 50's and 60's that sent workers to Germany, Sweden, Australia, etc.
Also, I'd add Tadej Valjavec to the list of riders you mentioned.
I don't want to get this too off topic, but Slovenia has had a plethora of top talent (talent that also produced results) in many sports. Many associate their success to winter sports, but if you look at football, basketball, team handball, tennis (particularly at the time when it was part of Yugoslavia-example is Mima Jausovec who won the 1977 Roland Garros title)....there's plenty of good results.
Cycling is not the most popular sport, but I think they've really hit the jackpot these days with this current crop of stage racers: Roglic, Spilak and Polanc.
Libertine Seguros said:
Well said, just a correction though, Yugoslavia was never an "Eastern Bloc" country. As you pointed out, it was a member of the non-alignment movement (a founding member at that), and didn't align itself with either the Soviets or the Americans. Its economy was better and the living standard was higher than the Soviet Union and its satellites. People could travel freely to and from the country. Plenty of tourists in the country, plenty of foreign exchange students, foreign workers and Yugoslavia made a few labour deals in the 50's and 60's that sent workers to Germany, Sweden, Australia, etc.
Also, I'd add Tadej Valjavec to the list of riders you mentioned.
I don't want to get this too off topic, but Slovenia has had a plethora of top talent (talent that also produced results) in many sports. Many associate their success to winter sports, but if you look at football, basketball, team handball, tennis (particularly at the time when it was part of Yugoslavia-example is Mima Jausovec who won the 1977 Roland Garros title)....there's plenty of good results.
Cycling is not the most popular sport, but I think they've really hit the jackpot these days with this current crop of stage racers: Roglic, Spilak and Polanc.
Important to state that how much your muscle fibre type is determined by genetics and how much can be altered by specific training (perhaps also controlled by separate genetic biological advantage in some who can adapt from one to another) is a subject of much controversy in sports science. There’s a significant amount of overlap it seems, with many fibers having hybrid characteristics of all 3 types in continuum. On average muscle type equates to 40% of your performance. An experiment in the 70s had two sets of runners with 15% difference in muscle fibre type run exactly the same times with no difference after training for 10km events for example even though some were short and some long distance specialists.
As a ski jumper he would make his living with the muscles below the waist. So that translates to cycling. Skijumpers need to be light and skinny. This too.
They need to have good core musculature to maintain stability in the jump and in flight. This should translate to cycling, I think TT especially.
The only thing different is the explosive nature of ski jumping. Had he been a sprinter it would be perfect. But it could also be that his muscles were more suitable for cycling than ski jumping in the first place.
He earned me a huuuge amounts of points on my manager team yesterday. And I put him in just before the stage started.
They need to have good core musculature to maintain stability in the jump and in flight. This should translate to cycling, I think TT especially.
The only thing different is the explosive nature of ski jumping. Had he been a sprinter it would be perfect. But it could also be that his muscles were more suitable for cycling than ski jumping in the first place.
He earned me a huuuge amounts of points on my manager team yesterday. And I put him in just before the stage started.
Ski jumpers are known to be very detail oriented also, which I can imagine can be an advantage in cycling.
Again, especially the TT, so that might be another factor to explain why he found his strength there.
Again, especially the TT, so that might be another factor to explain why he found his strength there.
No posts for a year. He absolutely needs more Clinic attention.
Has this guy happened upon the big magic secret?
Has this guy happened upon the big magic secret?
I presume that the UCI are dissecting his bike, flashing a tablet at it and running it through the xray machine as we speak.
What's most remarkable is that a guy whose endurance talent (ie the level of performance one can reach with professional training and low-detection-chance doping) is so off the charts he can podium the Tour didn't do an endurance sport from early on, but did instead do a sport that's about being explosive
You reach 99% of your endurance talent after approximately 4 years of specific training. The rest is just marginal efficiency gains and the experience. Bike handling is something he seems naturally good at, unlike Zakarin who’s been a cyclist for much longer. Amazing rider overal!
Don't see much strange here. He didn't have good legs in the Alps for instance and was distanced there. He was slightly better in the pyrenees and only took advantage in a downhill in the end.
Fair play.
Fair play.
I don't see any reason to be more alarmed about 28 year old Roglic compared to ex track riders blossoming to be not simply competitive but untouchable in the mountains at 32.
Re:
Yep, most sports science experts suggest ~3 years for full adaptation for endurance and muscles to occur in the body from one sport to another to reach that sports physiological potential. I'd argue there's perhaps a couple of years ontop for that for cycling and riders like Roglic not even racing a bike for the first time until 5-6 years ago to learn the race craft at the pointy end of a race, which you can only learn, once you are first fit enough to get to the pointy end of the race. ie you need to experience various race scenarios and work out the race craft required to handle it and that simply take a couple of seasons.
I'd say 4-5 years for anyone on the street to get to winning Tour stages is easily possible.
We've had a guy in our local club who was overweight and new to cycling and is now professional within 5 years. You could tell from the day you first met him, he had it even though he would be dropped on all the climbs initially,
Oude Geuze said:
Yep, most sports science experts suggest ~3 years for full adaptation for endurance and muscles to occur in the body from one sport to another to reach that sports physiological potential. I'd argue there's perhaps a couple of years ontop for that for cycling and riders like Roglic not even racing a bike for the first time until 5-6 years ago to learn the race craft at the pointy end of a race, which you can only learn, once you are first fit enough to get to the pointy end of the race. ie you need to experience various race scenarios and work out the race craft required to handle it and that simply take a couple of seasons.
I'd say 4-5 years for anyone on the street to get to winning Tour stages is easily possible.
We've had a guy in our local club who was overweight and new to cycling and is now professional within 5 years. You could tell from the day you first met him, he had it even though he would be dropped on all the climbs initially,
Re: Re:
I've also seen runners go from literally zero to international standard in a similar timeframe.
Bloody annoying if you've flogged yourself for years and never got there but unfortunately talent is talent!
samhocking said:
I've also seen runners go from literally zero to international standard in a similar timeframe.
Bloody annoying if you've flogged yourself for years and never got there but unfortunately talent is talent!
Yep, you see it in many endurance sports, people going from new to the sport to the best in similar time frames. I think in cycling especially, now with power and file analysis and more focused training possible, if you have the required physiology and dedicated to the hard work required to reach your physiology potential it's not surprising anymore and Roglic is a perfect example of getting from zero to podium in Tour de France in 5-6 years. Traditionally in cycling, it was your palamares that decided who was GC leader, today it's more about who's numbers are better. Why would you give GC leadership to a rider that won the race 3 years ago, today with low numbers, but a new kid who hasn't with higher numbers? That's basically how Sky works and BC works. Pretty ruthless, not much emotion or traditional respect though.
Re:
More fairy tales. BC on track anyway has the same core of riders from years and years ago. They even brought Wiggins back for the last Olympics. Actually it's the Australians who bring in new talent and who have all the depth in the world but they just cannot measure up to GB at the Olympics even when GB bring back old people.
GB track has got similar marginal gains to Sky.
samhocking said:
More fairy tales. BC on track anyway has the same core of riders from years and years ago. They even brought Wiggins back for the last Olympics. Actually it's the Australians who bring in new talent and who have all the depth in the world but they just cannot measure up to GB at the Olympics even when GB bring back old people.
GB track has got similar marginal gains to Sky.
Re:
Agreed. His TT performance today was human -- a good effort after stage 19, but not superhuman, and not as strong as we might expect of a fresh Roglic. Now Froome on the other hand . . .
Dekker_Tifosi said:
Agreed. His TT performance today was human -- a good effort after stage 19, but not superhuman, and not as strong as we might expect of a fresh Roglic. Now Froome on the other hand . . .
Re: Re:
Yes Rogliic showed he was human today. Other than Luke Rowe, the lowest Sky finisher was Bernal (25h), ahead of him were Poels (49th @ 1:49), Castroviejo (14th @ 1:31) then Froome thru Kwiat finishing 2nd thru 4th. This after riding in support of Thomas for three weeks. Marginal gains apparently. Not human.
JosephK said:Dekker_Tifosi said:
Agreed. His TT performance today was human -- a good effort after stage 19, but not superhuman, and not as strong as we might expect of a fresh Roglic. Now Froome on the other hand . . .
Yes Rogliic showed he was human today. Other than Luke Rowe, the lowest Sky finisher was Bernal (25h), ahead of him were Poels (49th @ 1:49), Castroviejo (14th @ 1:31) then Froome thru Kwiat finishing 2nd thru 4th. This after riding in support of Thomas for three weeks. Marginal gains apparently. Not human.
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