Proceedings open against Ullrich

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Dr. Maserati

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Cobblestones said:
Different opponents. He never settled anything with the Swiss.
The Swiss are who Jan had his racing licence with.
I don't feel sorry for him - he earned lots of money from his career, a career fueled on doping.
But to just go after Ullrich on his own would certainly be unjust. He was part of a doping regime - aided and abetted by his team and others who are still involved in cycling today who have escaped punishment.

If we are to try and clean up cycling then we cannot just simply shrug our collective shoulders or sweep it under the rug.
If riders who obviously doped are not punished and have their earnings and titles stripped than it sends a message to others that doping pays.
 
Jul 7, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
The Swiss are who Jan had his racing licence with.
I don't feel sorry for him - he earned lots of money from his career, a career fueled on doping.
But to just go after Ullrich on his own would certainly be unjust. He was part of a doping regime - aided and abetted by his team and others who are still involved in cycling today who have escaped punishment.

If we are to try and clean up cycling then we cannot just simply shrug our collective shoulders or sweep it under the rug.
If riders who obviously doped are not punished and have their earnings and titles stripped than it sends a message to others that doping pays.
I agree with you, Although I do feel sorry for Jan. I believe that he has been treated much more harshly than others. All dopers and cheats should be treated the same, and it is pretty obvious that this is not the case, until all are treated equally there will not be justice.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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workingclasshero said:
no?

does it seem like he does?
To be honest, it seemed like. So i have to apologize.

Anyway, until not all convicted dopers are out of cycling (Epo-Lance, Piti, AC), there is no reason to waste any effort on past riders. Its better used on active dopers.The prosecutor of Ullrich just want to make a name out of him, coz on every grand tour he comes out with that crap, since 3 years now.

So, to be honest, he gets my sympathy, coz many pipo here in germany dont understand that Ullrich is the scapegoat, while Epo-Lance is the saint and allowed to bring back all his stuff to the tour.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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workingclasshero said:
when have i ever come across as one of the armstrong clan? tell me and i'll go back and correct it :eek:
Sorry again. I am not that long here in the forum. I come from other forums where Lance ist the true clean champion, so my "madness" against those pipo carried over here.
 
Jun 21, 2009
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Sorry again. I am not that long here in the forum. I come from other forums where Lance ist the true clean champion, so my "madness" against those pipo carried over here.
you can stop apologising mate it's not like you've insulted me in any way. i don't tend to take things said on t'interweb very seriously anyway.
 
I think BroDeal brings up something interesting, but Jan would would have to swing the tide in the court of public opinion at the same time. He would have to put on just the right face, hold his hands up and say to the world, "Look, my entire career has been ruined. I screwed up and lost everything and everyone only remembers me as a cheat, when everyone knows the whole sport is dirty and filled with cheats. What more would you have me do?" But labor court, and trying to associate himself with the common worker won't be easy, but could be effective if he made it work.

A friend was in Germany a couple years ago and said Jan had become a pariah and some people treated him like he represented all that was wrong with the sport. The Germans are indeed very tough and strict in this regard (and why Sylvia Shenk should be the head of UCI).

Foxy - What would you say Jan's "approval rating" is in Germany about now? Do people still want to crucify the guy? Or are they starting to realize he was merely one of the many?
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
I think BroDeal brings up something interesting, but Jan would would have to swing the tide in the court of public opinion at the same time. He would have to put on just the right face, hold his hands up and say to the world, "Look, my entire career has been ruined. I screwed up and lost everything and everyone only remembers me as a cheat, when everyone knows the whole sport is dirty and filled with cheats. What more would you have me do?" But labor court, and trying to associate himself with the common worker won't be easy, but could be effective if he made it work.

A friend was in Germany a couple years ago and said Jan had become a pariah and some people treated him like he represented all that was wrong with the sport. The Germans are indeed very tough and strict in this regard (and why Sylvia Shenk should be the head of UCI).

Foxy - What would you say Jan's "approval rating" is in Germany about now? Do people still want to crucify the guy? Or are they starting to realize he was merely one of the many?
As far as i know he has 3 Fan-Pages, his own Page (were many pipo wish him all the best), a new (but small) TV-Spot at eurosport. I e-mailed the company and they say many pipo wonder why he is not seen. Many of us want him back, in some forums he is still the hero... on the other side, many think he is the biggest cheat in history. Its extrem, it seems pipo are with him or against him, no grey to say it in your words. But sure is: the way the german-media and Werner Franke destroyed him, its not the way pipo think of Jan Ullrich. I would estimate for 1/3 of fans he is still the (kind of) hero. 1/3 dont care about cycling anymore (coz they know almost everybody doped) and 1/3 really hate him (& of course dont care about cycling anymore). I am in the 1st group. We all wait for his book to come out. But that may take 8 years to be safe for him not to be sued.

Now we have to "suffer" with Gerdemann at a much smaller "rate" :) If he ever will be positiv, i think cycling is real dead in germany, he is the last hope here.
 
I'm sure Jan has to be ripe to crack.

It's just inevitable that this house of cards is going to collapse under the tremendous weight put on it and the fallout could be huge.

Ullrich, Hamilton, Landis, Rasmussen. Several others have to be on the verge of completely spilling their guts. And I'm not talking like Paul Kimmage, or Joe Papp. I'm talking big names, big time admissions with serious accusations that are so detailed they can't be easily denied. It would be as if Barry Bonds wrote "Game of Shadows" himself. These guys f'd up, but they just about had their entire lives destroyed, while others completely got away with doing the same thing, prospering from it and basking in glory. These guys can only stay silent for so long, the pressure has to be killing, and I honestly think a large source of Hamilton's personal depression. He's even hinted at a book, and spoke of cycling's "mafia" late last year in an interview saying it ruled the sport and people know little about it, before clamming up.
 
Alpe d'Huez said:
I'm sure Jan has to be ripe to crack.

It's just inevitable that this house of cards is going to collapse under the tremendous weight put on it and the fallout could be huge.

Ullrich, Hamilton, Landis, Rasmussen. Several others have to be on the verge of completely spilling their guts. And I'm not talking like Paul Kimmage, or Joe Papp. I'm talking big names, big time admissions with serious accusations that are so detailed they can't be easily denied. It would be as if Barry Bonds wrote "Game of Shadows" himself. These guys f'd up, but they just about had their entire lives destroyed, while others completely got away with doing the same thing, prospering from it and basking in glory. These guys can only stay silent for so long, the pressure has to be killing, and I honestly think a large source of Hamilton's personal depression. He's even hinted at a book, and spoke of cycling's "mafia" late last year in an interview saying it ruled the sport and people know little about it, before clamming up.
At some point we will get the juicy inside info. It could be in a form like Fignon's recalling the wild times when he was racing. It will make Armstrong's denials ever more ludicrous--as if they are not so already.

I think Hamilton will open up after his Olympic medal is safe. He has got to be a bit angry. Rumor is that Armstrong slept with Haven, and she is still hanging around Armstrong.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
I'm sure Jan has to be ripe to crack.

It's just inevitable that this house of cards is going to collapse under the tremendous weight put on it and the fallout could be huge.

Ullrich, Hamilton, Landis, Rasmussen. Several others have to be on the verge of completely spilling their guts. And I'm not talking like Paul Kimmage, or Joe Papp. I'm talking big names, big time admissions with serious accusations that are so detailed they can't be easily denied. It would be as if Barry Bonds wrote "Game of Shadows" himself. These guys f'd up, but they just about had their entire lives destroyed, while others completely got away with doing the same thing, prospering from it and basking in glory. These guys can only stay silent for so long, the pressure has to be killing, and I honestly think a large source of Hamilton's personal depression. He's even hinted at a book, and spoke of cycling's "mafia" late last year in an interview saying it ruled the sport and people know little about it, before clamming up.
I dont think Ullrich would break, coz if he accuses Armstrong he would loose the rest of his life, he was not on Disco/USPS, so he has no hard evidence.

Look, he has a family now and a kid. He will not risk that. I think we have to live with what we got (thanks to that french journalist of léquipe) in the 6 positiv Epo tests, the cortico-positiv and the affidavit of the Andreus. If we get real lucky we get him on the new synacthen Test, unless he is allowed to use:). Maybe, only maybe, we get something from Hamilton.

Oh yes all the riders you named must be real annoyed, to see how the others got lucky and their own lives are destroyed. What would i do? If i had some hard evidence (but only if; coz Lance dont care of affidavits), i would speak out, but just before i die or lost my living completley. So we still have to wait a long time.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
I'm sure Jan has to be ripe to crack.

It's just inevitable that this house of cards is going to collapse under the tremendous weight put on it and the fallout could be huge.

Ullrich, Hamilton, Landis, Rasmussen. Several others have to be on the verge of completely spilling their guts. And I'm not talking like Paul Kimmage, or Joe Papp. I'm talking big names, big time admissions with serious accusations that are so detailed they can't be easily denied. It would be as if Barry Bonds wrote "Game of Shadows" himself. These guys f'd up, but they just about had their entire lives destroyed, while others completely got away with doing the same thing, prospering from it and basking in glory. These guys can only stay silent for so long, the pressure has to be killing, and I honestly think a large source of Hamilton's personal depression. He's even hinted at a book, and spoke of cycling's "mafia" late last year in an interview saying it ruled the sport and people know little about it, before clamming up.
This is pretty much the problem right here - the riders are pawns in the big game. Easily moved aside to avoid capture of the King.
In that sense I feel some sympathy with the riders who are caught as the system that encouraged and accepted they doped remains largely the same.

However if there was no doping would Ullrich - or indeed other riders have been so successful? Not doubting his class but other riders that were clean and never made it past the first few years in the pro ranks could have been successful- so they were robbed by those who cheated.

In a clean world could Bassons have been a champion of the 90's - driving around in a Ferrari while his loyal domestique Virenque goes around in a Punto.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
This is pretty much the problem right here - the riders are pawns in the big game. Easily moved aside to avoid capture of the King.
In that sense I feel some sympathy with the riders who are caught as the system that encouraged and accepted they doped remains largely the same.

However if there was no doping would Ullrich - or indeed other riders have been so successful? Not doubting his class but other riders that were clean and never made it past the first few years in the pro ranks could have been successful- so they were robbed by those who cheated.

In a clean world could Bassons have been a champion of the 90's - driving around in a Ferrari while his loyal domestique Virenque goes around in a Punto.
Possible so, but you forget Ullrich was 22 in his 1st TdF, finishing 2nd. Like all those great riders, talent showed early. Now look at Indurain (ab., 97th, 47th in 1st three TdF), Epo-Lance (ab. many times, 36th in his first 5 or 6 TdF, i cant recall now, but have the documents somewhere) and Riis (in one TdF he finished 86th, right next to domestique Kimmage!!).

So if the 90s were in the 80s, it would be Ullrich and maybe Bassons. I dont say that coz am german, but coz he was a boy when beeing on top. Performance is best at the age of 28. So i could safely say its Ullrich who got robbed big time.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Clean riders like Lance Armstrong, Tony Martin, fabian Cancellara need to be protected from blood dopers like Vinogourv and this discusting criminal Jan Ullrich. He needs to be fined ALTEAST another 500,000 euros unless he comes out and admits to being the evil doped cheater we already know he is.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Possible so, but you forget Ullrich was 22 in his 1st TdF, finishing 2nd. Like all those great riders, talent showed early. Now look at Indurain (ab., 97th, 47th in 1st three TdF), Epo-Lance (ab. many times, 36th in his first 5 or 6 TdF, i cant recall now, but have the documents somewhere) and Riis (in one TdF he finished 86th, right next to domestique Kimmage!!).

So if the 90s were in the 80s, it would be Ullrich and maybe Bassons. I dont say that coz am german, but coz he was a boy when beeing on top. Performance is best at the age of 28. So i could safely say its Ullrich who got robbed big time.
Hardly. Jan came up through the East German academy, and we all know the crystal clean image they have. Was more likely than not already juiced up heavily as a young junior which obviously intensified as a pro.

Personally, I hold no grudges against Jan, but there was systematic doping at Telekom/T-Mobile which has already been shown through the Aldag, Vino and Sinkerwitz positives. Any proceedings that uncovers the networks, people and logistics behind the operation which has been touched on by Sinkerwitz, can only be a good thing. If Jan gets casts aside, so be it. You live by the sword, die by the sword. I bet Kloden, Rogers and co woke up with a bad headache this morning.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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unsheath said:
Hardly. Jan came up through the East German academy, and we all know the crystal clean image they have. Was more likely than not already juiced up heavily as a young junior which obviously intensified as a pro.

Personally, I hold no grudges against Jan, but there was systematic doping at Telekom/T-Mobile which has already been shown through the Aldag, Vino and Sinkerwitz positives. Any proceedings that uncovers the networks, people and logistics behind the operation which has been touched on by Sinkerwitz, can only be a good thing. If Jan gets casts aside, so be it. You live by the sword, die by the sword. I bet Kloden, Rogers and co woke up with a bad headache this morning.
Dont get me wrong, i dont wanna defend Ullrichs wrongdoings. But look for example at the JV/FA-Chat: Ullrich never more then 42 Hematokrit at the TdF. I think D´hont wrote/said that Riis was Mr.60%, while Ulrich didnt overdose. So it seems Ullrich wanted to come out of cycling alive. As "Mr. Alpe d Huez" pointed out there is white, grey and black. I would say Ulrich was on the dark grey side. So he was "loaded" but for example Virenque too (see Festina case, Voets book: "the greatest frider he ever was with"). Still Ulrich made 3 mins. on Virenque on 97-TT. And the east german times were long gone (he came up to pro cycling in 96, the wall came down 6 years earlier). So on the high doping era, Ullrich wins the TdF by 9 mins.! Now Lance at "old age" comes out of nowhere in 1999, and dominates Ullrich every year. That shows me Ullrich wasnt black but dark grey. So its still possible he wud have dominated in a perfect world, ok lets say togther with Bassons. Imagine he won his first race on too big street-shoes on a heavy bike. He was truly talented, but a doper too. Thats correct.
 
Foxy. Not saying Kevin didn't say what he said, but my guess is that he was on T-Mob when they were at a doping lull, and he was left out of the inner circle. His version of "never" should be interpreted to mean "not that I am aware of from my inside view".

BroDeal said:
I think Hamilton will open up after his Olympic medal is safe. He has got to be a bit angry. Rumor is that Armstrong slept with Haven, and she is still hanging around Armstrong.
Holy shjt!!!! I hadn't heard that rumor about Haven. But in an awful way it's believable. That's just fugly!

Good point on the Olympic medal. This means the book comes out in 2012.

When the dust settles (as in a couple of years), I'm going to see if I can track Hamilton down and talk to him. He was one of my favorites early on. His 2002 Giro performance, and heading into 2003 seemed too good to be true (and it was), and his denials post + were insulting. I'm still piissed at the guy about it. But damn if the entire 1000 ton anvil didn't hit him square in the back.
Dr. Maserati said:
In a clean world could Bassons have been a champion of the 90's - driving around in a Ferrari while his loyal domestique Virenque goes around in a Punto.
Willy Voet said that had everyone been clean, Gilles Delion would have won the Tour. But Gilles refused to dope and was a health nut. This once promising rider, like Bassons, couldn't keep up after a few years, and was forced to retire, at 27.

When I said Jan might crack, it had nothing to do with LA or getting inside info to USPS. I never mentioned Armstrong. Having someone like Jan spill his guts about the dirty world would "hurt" LA, sure, but that wasn't my point.

I'd venture to guess that Floyd and Rasmussen have to be the most angry. Floyd because he had to have known he wasn't doping much more than anyone else and rode such a magnificent race. He had the world ahead of him, endorsement deals, huge salaries, etc. All of it, gone. And from what I understand his current situation is pretty bleak. The Chicken has to feel pretty similar after he pretty much had the 2006 Tour yanked out from his grasp right on the verge of winning.
 
Jun 21, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Holy shjt!!!! I hadn't heard that rumor about Haven. But in an awful way it's believable. That's just fugly!
my respect for lance is growing

aye he is a cheat, a complete d1ckhead. but fook me, he doesn't half get some top women :cool:

haven goes in the fit as fook bucket. :cool:

also ashley and mary-kate together is a good nine :D well done lance. :D
 

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