Pulling a Wiggins

[martinvickers]

for argument sake we go along with his...not saying I agree, but what about the other GT's he rode prior to 2009? The ones where he is telling Kimmage he will be struggling to finish inside time limits.

Well, the obvious answer, annoying as it is, is he's a world class trackie, probably the best in the world after McGhee at his events, and he's maintaining upper body weight for those events which are his bread and butter, and which would, presumably completely undermine him as soon as the road slants upwards.

In the 2007 tour, despite still being a trackie, he gets top 4 in both the short and long TT. The latter, despite starting early in the rain, and beating one alberto contador. in 2008 Giro, just on the verge of the Games, he gets another top 4 in the final time trial, despite having done nothing of note all giro. and in the 2009 giro? 7th and 2nd in the TTs, despite, as you rightly pointed out, doing nothing in GC.

so that's a series of excellent TT results, while still a trackie, before his 2009 breakthrough.

He could always TT, digger. He improved when he went road only, as you might expect, but he could always TT with the best from 2007 onwards.

Again, I'm not saying he's clean, honestly. But his results are at least tolerably consistent with what he was at that time - a Track rider with some very decent TT skills.

 

[martinvickers]

Just so we are both clear here Martin going forward, as it would probably save us both time and energy going forward, do you think it's possible to be clean and beat riders who dope with oxygen vector doping methods, such as EPO or blood doping, over a three week GT?

It's possible to beat some of them, onc ertain occasions. I'm pretty sure Lemond, for obvious example, at his worst still had people behind him who were doping.

But not the best of them, on a proper program, no. I find it hard to believe you'd win any major races in such circumstances.

But, for sake of argument if there were five top class cleans riders, and 5 vector dopers, I don't think it's an absolute given that the result is Doped, doped, doped, doped, doped, clean, clean, clean, clean, clean. At very least, that ignores tactics, luck never mind natual talent

A result of doped, doped, doped, clean, doped, clean, doped, clean, clean, clean is not beyond possibility, if you understand me.

But clean, clean, clean, doped, doped, doped, doped, doped, clean, clean would be hard to imagine.

So, yes if there are 100 hardcore dopers in the peleton on vector products - no cleans can win.

If there's 10 , a cleans might, might conceivably win, but it would be very very unlikely

if there's 2 or 3. Yep, a cleans might well win, on the right day and with some luck. but the dopers will be there or there abouts.

 

[the sceptic]

Not flat. 7.5% average gradient

That is hillarious. the clip is a total smackdown to 2 of the biggest defenses of wiggins - that he only emerged when cycling became clean, and that he only did well when he put his head to the 2012 course after he saw it was all tts.
Wait a minute, that's 2009 its dirty as hell, and Wiggins has just come off a brutal giro and suddenly decided he wants to come top 20 in the tour, having 0 experience with climbing and there he is climbing in an elite group with the best 4 climbers in the world, 3 of them who we now know were heavily doped, 1 who even Wiggins fans wouldn't argue, wasn't.

I've taken a screenshot

Nice picture. Looks like Wiggins was robbed of another grand tour win, and would have won that tour by about 6 minutes as well.

I have yet to see a skybot making a logical explanation for how Wiggins could go from track sprinter and lead out man for Cav to by far best climber in the world. (if you remove all the dopers)

And now, suddenly the best climber in the world cant finish races anymore. Makes total sense of course.

 

[Benotti69]

.....I'm pretty sure Lemond, for obvious example, at his worst still had people behind him who were doping.
.........

To compare Wiggins with LeMond, hahaha!

When LeMond was beating EPO users, EPO was a relatively new PED.

But in 2012, this PED's use has been all but perfected and some still think a clean Wiggins could beat EPO users!!!!

 

[hrotha]

so that's a series of excellent TT results, while still a trackie, before his 2009 breakthrough.

He could always TT, digger. He improved when he went road only, as you might expect, but he could always TT with the best from 2007 onwards

Of course he could always TT; that's the only thing he could do. But he wasn't world-class. He only became a world-class time-trialist as he lost even more weight and massively improved his climbing. You say that's because he focused on the road and so improved in all regards. I think that's a flimsy excuse.

For one, Wiggins was on the road for many non-Olympic years, still doing zilch. More importantly, focusing on the track doesn't mean you forget how to ride on the road. Did you see Thomas in 2012? He focused on the track, put on some weight, and delivered some of the best ITTs of his career, as you'd expect, all while (and this is important) losing his ability to climb.

I can accept that focusing on the track hurt his climbing. But his time-trialing on flat courses, even prologues? Hell no. Don't forget he was already 27 when he put out those really good time trials, he had been doing road racing for many years and he was already every bit the world-class track cyclist back then, with an Olympic gold (2004) in individual pursuit, an individual world championship (2003) abd an Olympic silver (frickin' 2000) in team pursuit. He could be said to be at his peak in 2007-2008, and yet he kept improving his time-trialing on flat ground. How?

There's one very simple answer, and lots of extremely complicated ones.

 

[Justinr]

Of course he could always TT; that's the only thing he could do. But he wasn't world-class. He only became a world-class time-trialist as he lost even more weight and massively improved his climbing. You say that's because he focused on the road and so improved in all regards. I think that's a flimsy excuse.

For one, Wiggins was on the road for many non-Olympic years, still doing zilch. More importantly, focusing on the track doesn't mean you forget how to ride on the road. Did you see Thomas in 2012? He focused on the track, put on some weight, and delivered some of the best ITTs of his career, as you'd expect, all while (and this is important) losing his ability to climb.

I can accept that focusing on the track hurt his climbing. But his time-trialing on flat courses, even prologues? Hell no. Don't forget he was already 27 when he put out those really good time trials, he had been doing road racing for many years and he was already every bit the world-class track cyclist back then, with an Olympic gold (2004) in individual pursuit, an individual world championship (2003) abd an Olympic silver (frickin' 2000) in team pursuit. He could be said to be at his peak in 2007-2008, and yet he kept improving his time-trialing on flat ground. How?

There's one very simple answer, and lots of extremely complicated ones.

And as I'm sure you know he only focussed fully on the road from 2009 onwards. Before that he was switching from road to track most of the year, hardly conducive to being a GT contender. His improvement has come since that time - why does that need to be complicated?

 

[Benotti69]

And as I'm sure you know he only focussed fully on the road from 2009 onwards. Before that he was switching from road to track most of the year, hardly conducive to being a GT contender. His improvement has come since that time - why does that need to be complicated?

Talk about ignoring the content of hrotha's post. TTing, why was Wiggins only average at TTs before 2009?

 

[martinvickers]

To compare Wiggins with LeMond, hahaha!

Who compared? Digger asked a reasonable question in the abstract, i responded. THe comparison is in your head, nobody elses.

When LeMond was beating EPO users, EPO was a relatively new PED.

But in 2012, this PED's use has been all but perfected and some still think a clean Wiggins could beat EPO users!!!!

If you are seriously arguing that EPO use is perfected now, as compared to its free use in the untested nineties, then you're either trolling or an idiot. In either case, you're not worth taking seriously.

 

[martinvickers]

Of course he could always TT; that's the only thing he could do. But he wasn't world-class. He only became a world-class time-trialist as he lost even more weight and massively improved his climbing. You say that's because he focused on the road and so improved in all regards. I think that's a flimsy excuse.

I'm, not overly interested in what you think. That's pure opinion. See my sig. If, on the other hand you can make an argument, I'm all ears. Point remains, Wiggins was getting significant results, in long TT's when he was not remotely focused on them.

For one, Wiggins was on the road for many non-Olympic years, still doing zilch. More importantly, focusing on the track doesn't mean you forget how to ride on the road.

It does, however, mean you focus your training and efforts towards success in that medium, even if it is costly in others.

Did you see Thomas in 2012? He focused on the track, put on some weight, and delivered some of the best ITTs of his career, as you'd expect, all while (and this is important) losing his ability to climb.

Thomas' ability to climb in 2012 was significantly impaired by having a broken ****. And while they may be the best ITT's of his career, he has NEVER shown results, before or after becoming a pure roadie, in TTs to rival Wiggins. He has, however, a rather more impressive classics style record. In short, appleas and pears, different riders

I can accept that focusing on the track hurt his climbing.

that's good of you.

But his time-trialing on flat courses, even prologues? Hell no. Don't forget he was already 27 when he put out those really good time trials, he had been doing road racing for many years and he was already every bit the world-class track cyclist back then, with an Olympic gold (2004) in individual pursuit, an individual world championship (2003) abd an Olympic silver (frickin' 2000) in team pursuit. He could be said to be at his peak in 2007-2008, and yet he kept improving his time-trialing on flat ground. How?

There's one very simple answer, and lots of extremely complicated ones.

Simple answer might be he stopped focussing on 4 minutes of output, but YMMV.

I have no problem, absolutely none, with those who think he may have doped. He may well have done, I don't know. My problem only arises with those whose who want to ignore evidence that doesn't fit the theory, not because of it's merits, but because, frankly, they don't like him and it colours their judgement. I don't like him either - but I try and separate that from actually looking at the facts.

 

[hrotha]

For ****'s sake, you actually went through my post sentence by sentence so that you could post crap like this?

I'm, not overly interested in what you think. That's pure opinion. See my sig. If, on the other hand you can make an argument, I'm all ears

The rest of my post was me making an argument to explain why I think that. This is the tone you're willing to set for a debate? Because I'm not going to waste my time if this is the case.

It does, however, mean you focus your training and efforts towards success in that medium, even if it is costly in others.

Funny how that didn't happen to other trackies, like Boardman or McGee. Their climbing suffered. Their time-trialing didn't.

Thomas' ability to climb in 2012 was significantly impaired by having a broken ****. And while they may be the best ITT's of his career, he has NEVER shown results, before or after becoming a pure roadie, in TTs to rival Wiggins. He has, however, a rather more impressive classics style record. In short, appleas and pears, different riders

You're purposely missing the point. Thomas gained weight, his climbing suffered and his time-trialing improved as he focused on the track (pursuit, by the way, same as Wiggins. Apples and oranges?). That he wasn't a better time-trialist overall, or that he also happened to do well in the classics, is irrelevant.

Simple answer might be he stopped focussing on 4 minutes of output, but YMMV.

Again, that didn't seem to affect other pursuit specialists.

And don't accuse me of making an argument from personal dislike when you're choosing to ignore and misrepresent the rational points I'm making, please.

 

[The Hitch]

And as I'm sure you know he only focussed fully on the road from 2009 onwards.
Before that he was switching from road to track most of the year, hardly conducive to being a GT contender

Oh rly?

January 07, 2005

yesterday Wiggins quietly revealed the master plan. The big surprise was that, apart from the three-day UCI World Cup meeting which starts at the Manchester Velodrome today, we will not see him on a track again for two years. No World Championships and no Commonwealth Games.

Gold medals there for the taking. But spurned. Wiggins is opting for countless grinding hours on the roads of continental Europe. Team GB will have to soldier on for a couple of years without their brightest star.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/co...2353391/Cycling-jester-takes-to-the-road.html

 

[The Hitch]

I'm, not overly interested in what you think. That's pure opinion. See my sig. If, on the other hand you can make an argument, I'm all ears. Point remains, Wiggins was getting significant results, in long TT's when he was not remotely focused on them.

If hrotha saying Wiggins wasn't world class is an opinion, then, isn't the thing in italics also an opinion? Why are you presenting your own opinion as fact in the same paragraph you chastise hrotha for allegedly doing just that?

 

[TailWindHome]

I have yet to see a skybot making a logical explanation for how Wiggins could go from track sprinter and lead out man for Cav to by far best climber in the world. (if you remove all the dopers)

He wasn't even the best climber in his own team never mind the world.

Nor was he a track sprinter.

 

[Digger]

Oh rly?

January 07, 2005



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/co...2353391/Cycling-jester-takes-to-the-road.html

"If I don't try, I'll never know," Wiggins said yesterday. "I don't think I'll lose my physical ability to ride pursuit on the track, though as each Olympics approaches I'll have to rejoin the GB elite riding team, knuckle down and ensure I qualify at the previous year's World Championships. Road riding should make me stronger still on the track and help my long-term Olympic goals."

...........

 

[Justinr]

Oh rly?

January 07, 2005



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/co...2353391/Cycling-jester-takes-to-the-road.html

OK, I will give you that one and say yes in 2005/6 he would have been concentrating on the road and not the track, but not as a GC contender, more as a Prologue specialist and domestique.

Speaking about 2006 he said:

"I have two objectives for this season; the prologue of Paris-Nice, and the prologue of the Tour de France, for which I will prepare like it was the Olympic pursuit!,"

 

[TailWindHome]

Hitch, that was beautiful.

Again with this. It might work if it weren't for the fact that no one other than his own teammate managed to put time on him on any mountain stage. In other words, Wiggins would still have won in a course with a lot fewer ITT km.

If you were to take out the TT KMS no one would have been telling Froome to wait for him.

Froome would have 2 Tours

 

[blackcat]

If you were to take out the TT KMS no one would have been telling Froome to wait for him.

Froome would have 2 Tours

+ p'raps a Vuelta too

 

[the sceptic]

He wasn't even the best climber in his own team never mind the world.

Nor was he a track sprinter.

Ok. Who was the best clean climber in the 2009 tour apart from Wiggins?

 

[Digger]

Prologue in 2006 over 7km he came 16th
2007 he came 4th over 7.8km

2006 First TT over 52km he came 28th, 2m 50secs down
Second TT in 2006 he came 56th and 7m 35secs down

2007 first TT he came 5th 2m 14 secs down

Paris Nice Prologue of 2006 he came 7th

Dauphine Prologue of 2006 he came 21st
Dauphine TT over 43km he came 37 over 3 and a half minutes down

2008 Giro first TT he came 157th 8 and a half mins down....I assume he crashed or was sick in the interests of fairness.

2009 Giro he came 7th at two mins down over 60km


For a good Time trialist, who was always supposedly top class at the event, it's amazing how he only began seeing consistently really high end TT results when he lost weight, became a much better climber, beyond all recognition, increased power (nobody seems to know how this is possible)...



Note: he did win the Dauphine Prologue of 2007

Of course he could never be the rider Boyer is alluding to with the aicar

 

[TailWindHome]

Ok. Who was the best clean climber in the 2009 tour apart from Wiggins?

Define 'clean'

 

[Havetts]

Define 'clean'

Clean.

10chars

 

[sniper]

..
You're purposely missing the point.

Sky fanboys' trademark

 

[sniper]

Looks like Wiggins was robbed of another grand tour win,

wiggins could at least claim a second spot.
both armstrong and contador got busted/popped/exposed after 2009.

 

[martinvickers]

If hrotha saying Wiggins wasn't world class is an opinion, then, isn't the thing in italics also an opinion? Why are you presenting your own opinion as fact in the same paragraph you chastise hrotha for allegedly doing just that?

eh, No. It's not. It's an admonition followed by a statement of fact.

 

[Digger]

Are any of these sky fans addressing why his blood values from 2009 are following that pattern...more or less the opposite of what one would expect...that bloody sysmex machine...a hundred grand machine and it won't work properly.