Pulling a Wiggins

[Netserk]

CBA to look it up but was that the one where they let some breakaway go and they ended up 30+ minutes down the GC?

Lolololol.

Armstrong wasn't in that race.

Kinda gives some perspective to your knowledge of that era.

 

[del1962]

Wiggins was never really a great at long TTs until he became a GT rider though was he?

Don't know, top 10 in worlds in 2005 and 2007 shows he had some talent for it though

 

[Justinr]

Lolololol.

Armstrong wasn't in that race.

Kinda gives some perspective to your knowledge of that era.

Factually incorrect yet again Netserk ...

I think you'll find LA was in the 2003 TdF - being declared the winner until the USADA probe caused him to be stripped of the victory.

And if you read my post you'll see that I asked whether that race (2003 TdF) was one where they lost 30+ mins and I did actually point out that I couldn't be bothered to look it up. Now that I have been bothered to look it up I have discovered that it was in fact the 2001 TdF where that happened and if you look down the result list you'll see a certain Lance Armstrong :
(http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/2001/tour01/results/results_stage_8.shtml)


Kinda gives some perspective to your knowledge of that era don't you think...

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

And that was unlucky for him because???

Or do you really think he didn't use it

Scenario 1 - He didn't use it, in which case he was conceding a major power advantage to rivals.

Scenario 2 - He did use it, but reluctantly, as he either had to do that or give up

Scenario 3 - He did use it, but as everyone else was, gained no advantage. Early EPO use (a la Indurain) or post-testing special advantages (a la Lance) are just as bad morally, but yield spectularly good results.

All of these can be described as "unlucky", though the same applies to many riders of his era. And being able to be a pro and win 40+ ITTs but not contend in a GT isn't really unlucky when assessed against the "real world". It's only unlucky relative to pro cycling.

 

[Benotti69]

All those parcors were friendly to Lance as well, so I don't see why that should be a variable. Besides, Wiggins dropped his opponents in the mountains anyway. The only think that made that Tour favourable to him was 1 tt too much. Take away 1 tt from the gc and wiggins still wins that TDF comfortably.

But as far as the dicussion of whether wiggins dominated the tdf which he was 2 seconds off leading the entire race, or whether he scraped through it, here is a fun fact.
Wiggos gap to Froome in the 2012 TDF was bigger than the gaps of the 4 previous grand tours put together.

And wiggos gap to the next non Sky rider - Nibali, was over 1 and a half minutes greater than the gaps of the 6 previous grand tours put together.
I tried to fit the 2010 Giro in as well to make it a magic 7 but alas it falls 25 seconds short. Judging how they performed though, had there been more mountains, it probably would have fit.

If what you are saying is that Wiggins didn't win 7 tdfs like Lance did, well yeah, Wiggins only started being a beast at 32 years of age. 1 can use that exact same argument to say Horner isn't that suspicious because he's only won 1 gt - and it wasn't even the tdf.

But Lance never had anything close to the season wiggins had. He may have had more great seasons, but in all his tries he never came close to the all conquering one wiggins had in 2012.

Illustrated by the fact that Lance's highest ever cq points total was 2110 in 2002. THe other 6 occasions he didnt crack 2000.
In his one season on top Wiggins on the other hand scored 2687. Thats 25% more.

Wiggins also had according to cq, by far the most eficient cq season as far as race days per points scored goes.
He scored an average of 47,14 points per day in 2012.
Froome is next at 46,10 in 2013 and then theres a massive drop to the closest non Sky rating:
Gilbert 2011 42,97 points -
More importantly, since we are comparing to Lance, Lance's highest ever was - 35.76, far smaller than Wiggins.

You can say Wiggins didn't dominate like Lance if all you look for is longetivity.
But as far as their top ability goes, Wiggos one season at the top, alone was by all measures significantly better than any season Lance ever had.

So to your point about whether Wiggins acheived "Lance-esque achievements on the road, unbelivable domination", he far surpassed them.

Since being posted no one has really addressed Hitch, reason being is they cant. Wiggins owned 2012 more than any cyclist in the modern era when it came to stage racing.

That people believe Wiggins did this without dope shows that fans play right into the hands of sporting federations, never mind advertisers.

 

[Justinr]

Since being posted no one has really addressed Hitch, reason being is they cant. Wiggins owned 2012 more than any cyclist in the modern era when it came to stage racing.

That people believe Wiggins did this without dope shows that fans play right into the hands of sporting federations, never mind advertisers.

And the 2012 TdF had considerably more TT KMs than those previous 4:

2012 TdF : 101
2012 Giro : 70
2011 Vuelta : 56
2011 TdF : 66
2011 Giro : 58

And what was BW's speciality? Oh yes TTs...

 

[Digger]

And the 2012 TdF had considerably more TT KMs than those previous 4:

2012 TdF : 101
2012 Giro : 70
2011 Vuelta : 56
2011 TdF : 66
2011 Giro : 58

And what was BW's speciality? Oh yes TTs...

And a six month peak...name another rider who won as much as he did in six months...

 

[Mellow Velo]

CBA to look it up but was that the one where they let some breakaway go and they ended up 30+ minutes down the GC?

Nope.
That was 2001.
Still relatively fresh in my memory.

 

[richtea]

And a six month peak...name another rider who won as much as he did in six months...

Evans managed a broadly comparable set of results the year beforehand. TA, Romandie, a podium in the Dauphine, and then the Tour.

 

[veganrob]

Evans managed a broadly comparable set of results the year beforehand. TA, Romandie, a podium in the Dauphine, and then the Tour.

Yes comparable, but he still did not dominate like Wiggins. It seemed a foregone conclusion he was going to win everything.
Evans palmares is also so far superior to Wiggins up to that point that makes it seem even more ridiculous though.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Factually incorrect yet again Netserk ...

I think you'll find LA was in the 2003 TdF - being declared the winner until the USADA probe caused him to be stripped of the victory.

And if you read my post you'll see that I asked whether that race (2003 TdF) was one where they lost 30+ mins and I did actually point out that I couldn't be bothered to look it up. Now that I have been bothered to look it up I have discovered that it was in fact the 2001 TdF where that happened and if you look down the result list you'll see a certain Lance Armstrong :
(http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/2001/tour01/results/results_stage_8.shtml)


Kinda gives some perspective to your knowledge of that era don't you think...

The fact that you had to look it up suggests means you weren't around for the era.
2001 is still relatively fresh in my memory.

2003 was the year that Armstrong could have lost the Tour.
Extreme heat. Blew up in the ITT and lost a minute and a half to Ullrich.
Suffered awfully in the next two mountain stages, but bluffed his way through them.
Looked to have cracked on the Tourmalet, in the Luz Ardiden stage, but was bluffing again.
We all know how that finish panned out, or at least I assume we do.

 

[Mellow Velo]

And a six month peak...name another rider who won as much as he did in six months...

Your bloke in 1987.

 

[del1962]

And a six month peak...name another rider who won as much as he did in six months...

Dan Martin's Uncle won more

 

[richtea]

Yes comparable, but he still did not dominate like Wiggins. It seemed a foregone conclusion he was going to win everything.

I don't agree with that. He beat Westra by a very small margin in Paris Nice, and the course for 2012 Romandie so biased towards the ITTs that you would probably expect the same result if it happened this year. The true domination appeared from the Dauphine onwards.

 

[veganrob]

I don't agree with that. He beat Westra by a very small margin in Paris Nice, and the course for 2012 Romandie so biased towards the ITTs that you would probably expect the same result if it happened this year. The true domination appeared from the Dauphine onwards.

Ok. But you still can't compare Evans career up till then with Wiggins career.

 

[Justinr]

The fact that you had to look it up suggests means you weren't around for the era.
2001 is still relatively fresh in my memory.

2003 was the year that Armstrong could have lost the Tour.
Extreme heat. Blew up in the ITT and lost a minute and a half to Ullrich.
Suffered awfully in the next two mountain stages, but bluffed his way through them.
Looked to have cracked on the Tourmalet, in the Luz Ardiden stage, but was bluffing again.
We all know how that finish panned out, or at least I assume we do.

2001 is 13 years ago, for my old brain those memories were buried away. I was around for that era and many before but I wouldn't claim to be able to remember all the details of those tours or the more modern ones either.

Except perhaps the 1987 stage to La Plagne with Phil Liggett going ballistic at the summit.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Wiggins 2012 season places 9th on this list:
http://www.procyclingstats.com/statistics/104-top-seasons

 

[gooner]

And the 2012 TdF had considerably more TT KMs than those previous 4:

2012 TdF : 101
2012 Giro : 70
2011 Vuelta : 56
2011 TdF : 66
2011 Giro : 58

And what was BW's speciality? Oh yes TTs...

Exactly and so the time gaps would be more significant in Wiggins's favour. Plus Nibali had an injury for the Peyragudes and the TT which is a fact that now seems to be forgotten.

No one seems to address this, would Wiggins have been the 2nd best climber if Froome wasn't held back? It would have opened up the whole race and in La Toussuire, Pinot and Nibali would have got significant time. Wiggins would have been more isolated. At the time of the route announcement for this Tour, it was said by many that this was one tailored made for Wiggins and this was before his P-N, Dauphine and Romandy wins.

I don't get this Lance level comparison. The same thing was indeed said in 99 about the route design and no Pantani/Ullrich but he dispelled all this in the years to come. He also never had a Froome level team mate who could out climb him in those Tours.

Do we think Wiggins on 2012 form would have been the 2nd best climber in 2013 edition? Fast forward even a couple of months, how would he have coped with Contador, Valverde and Purito going back and forth at each other in the Vuelta? I don't think he would have been the second best climber there.

The fact that you had to look it up suggests means you weren't around for the era.
2001 is still relatively fresh in my memory.

2003 was the year that Armstrong could have lost the Tour.
Extreme heat. Blew up in the ITT and lost a minute and a half to Ullrich.
Suffered awfully in the next two mountain stages, but bluffed his way through them.
Looked to have cracked on the Tourmalet, in the Luz Ardiden stage, but was bluffing again.
We all know how that finish panned out, or at least I assume we do.

Heras did say if the others went more for it at the bottom of Alpe d'Huez, Armstrong was in trouble. That Tour was a big opportunity miss.

 

[Justinr]

Your bloke in 1987.

I think you're looking for Stephen Roche there, or is his name not allowed as this is a Wiggins thread?

 

[Benotti69]

And the 2012 TdF had considerably more TT KMs than those previous 4:

2012 TdF : 101
2012 Giro : 70
2011 Vuelta : 56
2011 TdF : 66
2011 Giro : 58

And what was BW's speciality? Oh yes TTs...

BW was hardly a TT champion prior, he won his 1st GT TT (a prologue)in 2010 FFS at age 30!!!.

 

[Benotti69]

Your bloke in 1987.

Dan Martin's Uncle won more

And we all know who Roche's Doctor was, Conconi. We all know who Wiggins doctor was, Leinders.

 

[Justinr]

No one seems to address this, would Wiggins have been the 2nd best climber if Froome wasn't held back? It would have opened up the whole race and in La Toussuire, Pinot and Nibali would have got significant time. Wiggins would have been more isolated. At the time of the route announcement for this Tour, it was said by many that this was one tailored made for Wiggins and this was before his P-N, Dauphine and Romandy wins.

Froome pretty much dragged Wiggo through the mountains by a rope, drafting him nearly the whole way. One thing you can say about BW is he can definitely hold someones wheel well. All those years of TP probably.

 

[Justinr]

And we all know who Roche's Doctor was, Conconi. We all know who Wiggins doctor was, Leinders.

Very quick off topic but just one question, was Roche working with Conconi in 87, or was it later when Conconi was testing the effects of EPO?

 

[The Hitch]

You've been hacked. Nobody is this stupid or disingenuous.

TdF ITT Distances (approx, km)
2011 - 42
2012 - 95
2013 - 65
2014 - 54

Which year is best suited to a TT specialist?
.

Favourable route and his team mate with the shackles on helped the cause. I did think back in 99 watching Lance that the route design helped him a lot and with Ullrich and Pantani back for 2000, he would have been found out. That was all blown out of the water on Hautacam so it didn't really matter the parcours with Lance.

So Wiggins being dominant was so reliant on a lucky route in the TDF eh.

Explain this then.

Bradley Wiggins 2012 points total minus the Tour de France - 1512.

Lance Armstrong points totals for 3 of his 7 years at the top -
1999 -1520
2003 - 1521
2005 - 1379

 

[Benotti69]

Froome pretty much dragged Wiggo through the mountains by a rope, drafting him nearly the whole way. One thing you can say about BW is he can definitely hold someones wheel well. All those years of TP probably.

So now Wiggins won because of Froome dragging him by some magical invisible rope. Bet Wiggins will be happy to hear that!