Question regarding the USADA investigation...

[Berzin]

Questions regarding the USADA investigation...

I didn't want this list of questions to get lost in all the off-topic comments being made in the other related threads, so I wanted to posit these issues separately-

1) Is there a possibility that the USADA investigation goes the way of the Federal one that was shut down literally at the last minute? Does the UCI have the power to override the investigation and shut it down?

2) Who has oversight into the evidence, and will it see the light of day anytime soon?

3) The accused have until June 22nd to answer the charges. Are their only options innocent or guilty? Could they just ignore the charges since most of the accused are based in Europe?

4) What would then be next for them besides denial? Is there a possibility that for a lesser sanction any of them would flip on the others?

5) Does USADA have jurisdiction over the players in this scenario who live and work in Europe to sanction them, and will the UCI honor any potential sanctions?

6) A friend of mine made a statement I haven't heard before. He said an official from the organization that runs the Tour de France stated years ago that whatever happens with any investigation they would not strip Armstrong of ANY of his wins.

I am assuming he was talking about the ASO, but I have never heard of this. Has anyone heard anything remotely similar to this?

7) What is the timeline for the events to fall into place after June 22nd? When will the hearing be? Supposedly it's sometime in November, but I'm not sure this is accurate.

I will be adding questions as they come up, so I would respectfully ask that posters refrain from the type of conjecture that has plagued the other related threads. Let's keep this one lean and mean.

 

[sniper]

2) Who has oversight into the evidence, and will it see the light of day anytime soon?

let me repost RR's post here in the context of question 2

So what is next?

Last weeks events were no surprise to those who read The Clinic....but what is next?

you will hear the phrase "take the shot or you do not start"
We will find out about an American rider who got his EPO confiscated by customs
Tyler was not the only guy who doped at the 2004 Olympics
Followed, hacked, and harassed. Yup. Lots of that.
Pictures
Tapes
Tenerife
and more good news coming from across the pond

Stay tuned kids. Last week was just the half time show. This quarter going to be fun!

 

[Caruut]

I didn't want this list of questions to get lost in all the off-topic comments being made in the other related threads, so I wanted to posit these issues separately-

1) Is there a possibility that the USADA investigation goes the way of the Federal one that was shut down literally at the last minute? Does the UCI have the power to override the investigation and shut it down?

2) Who has oversight into the evidence, and will it see the light of day anytime soon?

3) The accused have until June 22nd to answer the charges. Are their only options innocent or guilty? Could they just ignore the charges since most of the accused are based in Europe?

4) What would then be next for them besides denial? Is there a possibility that for a lesser sanction any of them would flip on the others?

5) Does USADA have jurisdiction over the players in this scenario who live and work in Europe to sanction them, and will the UCI honor any potential sanctions?

6) A friend of mine made a statement I haven't heard before. He said an official from the organization that runs the Tour de France stated years ago that whatever happens with any investigation they would not strip Armstrong of ANY of his wins.

I am assuming he was talking about the ASO, but I have never heard of this. Has anyone heard anything remotely similar to this?

7) What is the timeline for the events to fall into place after June 22nd? When will the hearing be? Supposedly it's sometime in November, but I'm not sure this is accurate.

I will be adding questions as they come up, so I would respectfully ask that posters refrain from the type of conjecture that has plagued the other related threads. Let's keep this one lean and mean.

1) Wouldn't think the UCI could - USADA is the general anti-doping body, so it's not just about cycling.

3) and 5) I think they still have jurisdiction. On non-analytic cases, it's the authority that uncovers it that proceeds with the investigation. Remember Valverde's case was investigated by the Italians.

 

[thehog]

The most important point to add is Armstrong hasn’t been “charged” by USADA. USADA have only opened an “investigation”. He has been asked to be respond to specific allegations outlined in the leaked letter by the 22nd. . After this date the case file will be sent to the review board for consideration to raise charges. The the 22nd date is also for Armstrong to provide his version of events so the board has both sides and may even determine that there is no case to answer or not significant amount of evidence to warrant charges. Armstrong had the opportunity to be interviewed by USADA prior to te investigation being opened and this would have allowed him a private confession and agreed sanction. He declined. The case would have a set time limit. They don’t allow the proceeding to be dragged out for respect to a competing athlete. Once charges are filed Armstrong will be allowed to see more of the evidence against him but he’ll never be allowed to see the names of the witnesses. As other have already posted. I doubt very much he’ll contest and he’ll just allow the November time to elapse and he’ll be sanctioned.

I also doubt the UCI or ASO will do anything other than issue a bland statement without confirming they agree with the verdict. Armstrong will continue to suggest the process was flawed and it was a vendetta against him but sheer volume of evidence against him will leak to the press. It will be hard to ignore most of it.

Where they got him nicely was on WTC. The fact that he can’t complete until the verdict is handed down or no charges are filed is where it’s going to hurt him. By not completing he has to find another way to fund his lawyers. He knows what’s coming next on the civil front so he’d needs to find some form of revenue to fund the next fight. Then there’s SCA etc. which would have to end in private settlement. There’s no other way. The biggest problem he has is money – there’s simple nothing coming in and a lot of cash going out the door.

 

[Anonymous]

The most important point to add is Armstrong hasn’t been “charged” by USADA. USADA have only opened an “investigation”. He has been asked to be respond to specific allegations outlined in the leaked letter by the 22nd. . After this date the case file will be sent to the review board for consideration to raise charges. The the 22nd date is also for Armstrong to provide his version of events so the board has both sides and may even determine that there is no case to answer or not significant amount of evidence to warrant charges. Armstrong had the opportunity to be interviewed by USADA prior to te investigation being opened and this would have allowed him a private confession and agreed sanction. He declined. The case would have a set time limit. They don’t allow the proceeding to be dragged out for respect to a competing athlete. Once charges are filed Armstrong will be allowed to see more of the evidence against him but he’ll never be allowed to see the names of the witnesses. As other have already posted. I doubt very much he’ll contest and he’ll just allow the November time to elapse and he’ll be sanctioned.

I also doubt the UCI or ASO will do anything other than issue a bland statement without confirming they agree with the verdict. Armstrong will continue to suggest the process was flawed and it was a vendetta against him but sheer volume of evidence against him will leak to the press. It will be hard to ignore most of it.

Where they got him nicely was on WTC. The fact that he can’t complete until the verdict is handed down or no charges are filed is where it’s going to hurt him. By not completing he has to find another way to fund his lawyers. He knows what’s coming next on the civil front so he’d needs to find some form of revenue to fund the next fight. Then there’s SCA etc. which would have to end in private settlement. There’s no other way. The biggest problem he has is money – there’s simple nothing coming in and a lot of cash going out the door.

Agree with almost all of this.... and while I agree money is on LA's mind I would guess his income streams have largely diversified away from racing.

 

[thehog]

Agree with almost all of this.... and while I agree money is on LA's mind I would guess his income streams have largely diversified away from racing.

That is a problem in itself. The Livestrong streams are really about the foundation and not so much the .com. The .com is really a bucket shop. They’re not selling an awful lot of product to fund a lifestyle and to pay hungry lawyers. He also has to keep settlement cash in reserve otherwise they’ll start taking homes and cars etc away. He’s also not actually that wealthy. He certainly displayed an image of wealth but compared to Wall St bankers or internet investors Armstrong really hasn’t made a lot of money over the years. Not the liquid amounts that owners of private jets have. Too much was for show.

 

[DirtyWorks]

#2 Officially, unless the parties request it be public, the process is largely private with a finding of fact released in the end. Does that mean some stuff won't leak? Please, save the leaks for after the process is done. If it is in fact true that Wonderboy released the USADA letter, then his side will probably leak less damning material (JB, Marti) and then cry foul.

#5 USADA has jurisdiction over UCI license holders. So, it's assumed even Pepe Marti has some kind of UCI license. If he and the doping doctors don't have any UCI license, then it's name-and-shame and that's it.

#6 Who knows what the ASO will do. The owner has gotten very forgiving of the doping for some years now. Let's say for a minute this case is closed in 24 months (not likely), ASO can take or leave the verdict. AFAIK, nothing says they MUST strip the wins.

The win I want undone is the Leadville Win. Wiens(sp) is the rightful winner. But, with 24-Hour fitness the owner, who knows how far Wonderboy's finger is up in their business.


#7 I think we're in for a long, slow grind. It would be great if not, but rules are rules and Wonderboy deserves a chance to defend the charges. Rule of Law applies equally. Judging by the content of the Lawyer's letter back to USADA, it looks like it's lots of throwing up dust and smoke to lengthen the hearing process.

I agree the .com has to be a bucket shop. The stuff that gets .com branded is pretty low-margin stuff or weird backwards deals such that legal/management is probably eating most of whatever money comes in. I wonder what his endorsements/appearance make him and if that's enough to keep the enormous number of billable hours paid in full.

 

[Merckx index]

4) What would then be next for them besides denial? Is there a possibility that for a lesser sanction any of them would flip on the others?

I still think a deal is very much in play. USADA’s case for overriding the SOL seems questionable to me. If they could get LA to agree to losing two TDF titles, I think they might take it. And LA would surely consider any deal that allowed him to start competing in WTC events again right away. I agree with Hog that this is a very important part of USADA’s game. If he is going to have any chance of competing in the world's, he would have to settle this before the hearing.

I find it hard to believe, though, that LA doesn’t have plenty of money to fund an extended fight, if he decides to. The highest estimate I saw of his expenses in the federal investigation was $5 million. Fighting this would not cost that much.

7) What is the timeline for the events to fall into place after June 22nd? When will the hearing be? Supposedly it's sometime in November, but I'm not sure this is accurate.

From usada.org:

Q: How long after the Adverse Analytical Finding before the Anti-Doping Review Board meets?
A: The Anti-Doping Review Board generally meets (typically by teleconference) within three weeks after a ‘B’ sample analysis confirms an an Adverse Analytical Finding.

The letter USADA sent is the equivalent of an AAF, and LA has until June 22 to answer it. So the Board should meet by July 13. They would have to read the written submissions, then make their recommendation. If they meet by teleconference, I assume they would make their decision whether or not to move forward very quickly.

Q: How long after the Anti-Doping Review Board's recommendation will the hearing take place?
A: The AAA Supplementary Procedures require that the requested hearing takes place within three months of the appointment of the arbitrator(s).

Assuming LA decides to contest, there would be some period after the RB recommendation when the arbitrators were chosen. If this happened very quickly, the hearing could take place in October, but November seems like a reasonable estimate. Hard to see how it could be any later than November.

Could LA drag it out? Maybe. Contador's hearing was postponed several times. But that was CAS, not the national hearing, and AFAIK, much of that delay was the prosecution's doing, bringing in new evidence that Contador then requested to have time to consider. Except for the 09/10 blood values, this is about witness testimony. That shouldn't involve bringing in new evidence, or expert analysis, and all the other stuff that can cause delays.

Also, by dragging out, LA just extends the period in which he is banned from competing in WTC events. At a certain point, he might decide he won't be able to qualify for the worlds, and at that point he might not care. I think someone at WTC suggested they might change their rules next year. If LA was given some assurances on that, he probably wouldn't care how much it dragged out. But again, in the short term it's in his interest to get this over with quickly.

 

[mastersracer]

Armstrong has a seething hatred for his detractors - so much so that Coyle made it the opening scene of his book on him. As much as Armstrong is motivated by his desire to maintain his reputation and legacy, everything I've read on him and the few one-on-one interactions I've had with him suggests that his personalized fight against Kimmage, Walsh, etc will fuel a scorched earth policy from him. Could Armstrong live with himself if he felt like those guys won? He's always been motivated by anger and a personal grudge. I can see legal battles well beyond USADA and CAS hearings - civil suits, etc.

 

[Maxiton]

Man. Go away for awhile and look what happens.

I haven't read the entire thread yet (stopped at page 20, out of 118), so someone else may have pointed this out:

It was a tall, somewhat troublesome, expensive order, even for the U.S. Justice Department, to prosecute a case against the handsome 7-time Tour winner and full time cancer fighter. He had success written all over him, with a charity that drummed up millions of dollars a year to "defeat this terrible disease, and ease the suffering of so many." He had large corporations behind him, and politicians in his pocket - not to mention the UCI, past and present. He was extremely well funded and loved by a very large number of people the world over.

So why take all that on? If you don't have to, I mean.

Why not hand off the evidence gathered to USADA and others, where the bar of proof is lower, if only slightly, and the stakes not quite so high, seemingly. Let them do their thing, resulting in a thoroughly discredited athlete who has been stripped of all racing titles from 1998 onwards; an athlete who has consequently been chewed up in the press and whose charitable organization has long since jettisoned his name or else itself been held up to unfavorable scrutiny; an athlete, moreover, whose support has dwindled to little or nothing and whose coffers have been all but dried up by the effort to fight and survive.

Result? A soft(er) target.

The Justice Department has already done most of the heavy lifting with its investigation. Now it hands the evidence off to USADA, which handles matters from a sporting end and chops our hero down to size. When in the process certain matters of a criminal nature are brought to light, the Justice Depart is justified and indeed obligated to start a new investigation (or, if you prefer, to restart this one). When they do, it will be against a broke, discouraged, discredited person who is proven to be a liar and conspirator, one who, moreover, has few if any genuine athletic accomplishments to his name, no charity to call his own, no corporation or politician willing to go to bat for him, and far fewer fans than before.

In an interview around the time of the Men's Journal article, Armstrong said he wasn't going to contest anything anymore; and if that meant giving up a Tour title or two, that was an outcome he'd be happy with. With this, he was signaling USADA that he'd make a deal, thereby saving them the expense and trouble of a full-court press. Their response is seen in this letter: we don't want a Tour title or two in exchange for going away. We want it all. The figure standing in shadows around the corner is none other than Jeff Novitsky and the U.S. Justice Department. At least, that's how I think it will play out.

I posted this in the other thread, but it got immediately drowned in a spate of trolling posts and responses to trolling.

I think it's possible that the USADA case could get shut down at the last minute; it's possible, that is, if USADA is only pursuing this because they have to in order to justify their existence, having been handed all the evidence.

It's also possible that they'll make a deal, because a deal is easier and cheaper.

But something tells me they have evidence enough to pursue it all the way, and that they will. And when they're done, the Justice Department will pick up where they left off, and we'll eventually see a few people incarcerated.

 

[Polish]

He's always been motivated by anger and a personal grudge. I can see legal battles well beyond USADA and CAS hearings - civil suits, etc.

I agree.

And the next "Legal Dream Team" assembled will NOT be the same guys that defended Lance against the Federal Investigation (cleared btw). Those guys were the best in world for that situation.

It will be a Legal Dream Team of World Class Lawyers who specialize in Smearjob Cases.

 

[perfessor]

I agree.

And the next "Legal Dream Team" assembled will NOT be the same guys that defended Lance against the Federal Investigation (cleared btw). Those guys were the best in world for that situation.

It will be a Legal Dream Team of World Class Lawyers who specialize in Smearjob Cases.

Ain't it great to live in a land where such a thing exists.
Too bad I'm an unbeliever, because I'd love to believe in those extra warm places in hell.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I posted this in the other thread, but it got immediately drowned in a spate of trolling posts and responses to trolling.

I think it's possible that the USADA case could get shut down at the last minute; it's possible, that is, if USADA is only pursuing this because they have to in order to justify their existence, having been handed all the evidence.

USADA isn't working on just cycling though and in particular, the IOC relies on it to make the Olympic performances appear credible. USOC/IOC won't let it come to that. Could some people in the organization get replaced then the case drop? Sure.

But something tells me they have evidence enough to pursue it all the way, and that they will. And when they're done, the Justice Department will pick up where they left off, and we'll eventually see a few people incarcerated.

An organization like WADA is relatively new with limited legal power and few legal precedent on which their authority relies. Wonderboy's lawyers can probably find a dozen weak points to test as ways to get Wonderboy off.

Wonderboy's lack of maturity shows though and I think it's all personal to him. That lack of maturity has already come back and bite him worse than the 2010 comeback. The guy can't win without being on PED's. So, USADA will have another chance with Tri samples from winning events a couple of years from now, assuming there will be any taken.

 

[Maxiton]

USADA isn't working on just cycling though and in particular, the IOC relies on it to make the Olympic performances appear credible. USOC/IOC won't let it come to that. Could some people in the organization get replaced then the case drop? Sure.

Good point about the USOC/IOC. In any case, though, I was only conceding the possibility because, well, anything is possible.

Some people might think this could be dropped just like the criminal probe was dropped. My larger point is that the dropping of the Justice Department case may prove to have been strategic. If that's the case, it seems reasonable to suppose that they will pick it up again when this is finished.

An organization like WADA is relatively new with limited legal power and few legal precedent on which their authority relies. Wonderboy's lawyers can probably find a dozen weak points to test as ways to get Wonderboy off.

Wonderboy's lack of maturity shows though and I think it's all personal to him. That lack of maturity has already come back and bite him worse than the 2010 comeback. The guy can't win without being on PED's. So, USADA will have another chance with Tri samples from winning events a couple of years from now, assuming there will be any taken.

As you say, LA's lawyers will be attacking this from every conceivable angle. But isn't the USADA mandate a pretty limited one, though? If they can make a convincing case to the panel, isn't that all they need do in order to strip LA of Tour wins?

 

[mastersracer]

As you say, LA's lawyers will be attacking this from every conceivable angle. But isn't the USADA mandate a pretty limited one, though? If they can make a convincing case to the panel, isn't that all they need do in order to strip LA of Tour wins?

The next step is the review panel, then a hearing if Armstrong et. al want to dispute the findings. Then a potential appeal to CAS. Landis went through all those stages and then threatened further litigation but ran out of money.

 

[Maxiton]

The next step is the review panel, then a hearing if Armstrong et. al want to dispute the findings. Then a potential appeal to CAS. Landis went through all those stages and then threatened further litigation but ran out of money.

I'm sure LA can and will drag that out for a long time. Once he is stripped of the Tour titles, though (if he is), it all becomes more or less an exercise in technicalities (unless he were to get them back, but he won't).

But at this point I am taking to heart what Dirty Works says about all the many ways this could be made to go away. I think we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[mikkemus23]

I posted this in the other thread, but it got immediately drowned in a spate of trolling posts and responses to trolling.

I think it's possible that the USADA case could get shut down at the last minute; it's possible, that is, if USADA is only pursuing this because they have to in order to justify their existence, having been handed all the evidence.

It's also possible that they'll make a deal, because a deal is easier and cheaper.

But something tells me they have evidence enough to pursue it all the way, and that they will. And when they're done, the Justice Department will pick up where they left off, and we'll eventually see a few people incarcerated.

Great post - but that said I do hope he`ll go down in flames

 

[mwbyrd]

USADA isn't working on just cycling though and in particular, the IOC relies on it to make the Olympic performances appear credible. USOC/IOC won't let it come to that. Could some people in the organization get replaced then the case drop? Sure.


An organization like WADA is relatively new with limited legal power and few legal precedent on which their authority relies. Wonderboy's lawyers can probably find a dozen weak points to test as ways to get Wonderboy off.

Wonderboy's lack of maturity shows though and I think it's all personal to him. That lack of maturity has already come back and bite him worse than the 2010 comeback. The guy can't win without being on PED's. So, USADA will have another chance with Tri samples from winning events a couple of years from now, assuming there will be any taken.

Great point about the USOC/IOC. I've wondered if USADA jumped the gun, especially with past Olympians withdrawing their names from consideration (Hincapie, Zabriskie, Vande Velde) when it was well documented that they all wanted to participate this year. I bet the USOC/IOC is ****ed. It means there have been doped athletes competing (Not like we didn't know it, but you catch my drift) in the Olympics for who knows how long.

I mean if what USADA is claiming is true, it happened under their watch. They are acting all high and mighty, yet didn't do anything about it? I find this very hard to believe. If they wanted to sound more legitimate about this...they would have listed more than Armstrong and his cronies. They would have a list of at least 30 riders/doctors/DS's that they should have listed in the suit. Not just 5 people.

Heck, Clemmons just got off. They couldn't prove hardly anything against Bonds. Edwards is free. I wonder what USADA is thinking today after the Clemmons verdict.

 

[Race Radio]

I mean if what USADA is claiming is true, it happened under their watch. They are acting all high and mighty, yet didn't do anything about it? I find this very hard to believe.

You keep saying this but you know it isn't true

WADA was only in charge of testing lance for 6 months of his first career and 2 years of his second. If you want to blame someone for ignoring the obvious the UCI is your best bet