Rabobus

[El Pistolero]

I mentioned tosh if you read. But there were bigger talents then him, nothing too special. Goes double for dennis.
I thought you dont pay attention to u23 tho

you are of course right with the development and feeder teams, I don't disagree there. I was more talking about lottos current crop of youngsters, two different conversations. but overall with development I'd agree that lotto are up there. And yep they do a lot more then sky and bmc, who basically just buy talented riders.

As for hype levels, it comes to performances. You'll see guys like kelderman, dekker etc really did well in the espoir years.
And then some of these youngsters are performing in the big leagues; slagter is starting to show things, kruijswijk etc, compared to the lotto guys who haven't shown a lot. Give credit where it is due ( ) so far the recent crop of rabo conti riders are performing in the WT.

Most of the guys in Lotto are first year pros, so it's hard to show something in the WT already then

Bart de Clercq won a Giro stage in his first year as a pro and he comes from the Lotto feeder team. Just saying. He might not be that young anymore, but he started cycling in 2008 which makes it even more impressive. And you don't hear that much from him here to be honest. I hope you don't take offence to this, but on average the Dutch talents are more hyped here than the Belgian talents. I'm talking about the youngsters of course, not the likes of Boonen and Gilbert.

But there is a little bit more competition on the "Belgian market" for young talents, while Rabobank practically have a monopoly on the Dutch market.

And I don't pay much attention to the U23 cycling scene, but I do read a newspaper. Especially in the regional section of a newspaper you'll find a lot of information about U23 cyclists who live in the same region.

 

[theyoungest]

But there is a little bit more competition on the "Belgian market" for young talents, while Rabobank practically have a monopoly on the Dutch market.

Project 1t4i signed Dumoulin and Sinkeldam this year. Vacansoleil signed Markus and Lindeman. Rabobank got Bol and Kelderman. What monopoly?

I'm sorry, but if Bart de Clercq is the best you can come up with, I dare say the Rabo programme so far has proved *a bit* more effective.

 

[El Pistolero]

Project 1t4i signed Dumoulin and Sinkeldam this year. Vacansoleil signed Markus and Lindeman. Rabobank got Bol and Kelderman. What monopoly?

I'm talking about Rabobank's feeder team. They're one of the best teams out there in the U23 category.

And I never said anything about Lotto being better than Rabobank. This isn't a competition on how long your **** is you know. What I did say was that Lotto deserves a mention before teams like Garmin and Sky

 

[theyoungest]

I'm talking about Rabobank's feeder team. They're one of the best teams out there in the U23 category.

And I never said anything about Lotto being better than Rabobank. This isn't a competition on how long your **** is you know.

Okay. Well, Lotto are great as well. Thanks for bringing that up in this thread about Rabobank (what else is new?)

 

[El Pistolero]

I didn't start this discussion, merely saying the guy I quoted forgot a team.

 

[Spine Concept]

Most of the guys in Lotto are first year pros, so it's hard to show something in the WT already then

Bart de Clercq won a Giro stage in his first year as a pro and he comes from the Lotto feeder team. Just saying. He might not be that young anymore, but he started cycling in 2008 which makes it even more impressive. And you don't hear that much from him here to be honest. I hope you don't take offence to this, but on average the Dutch talents are more hyped here than the Belgian talents. I'm talking about the youngsters of course, not the likes of Boonen and Gilbert.

But there is a little bit more competition on the "Belgian market" for young talents, while Rabobank practically have a monopoly on the Dutch market.

And I don't pay much attention to the U23 cycling scene, but I do read a newspaper. Especially in the regional section of a newspaper you'll find a lot of information about U23 cyclists who live in the same region.

Correct me if I'm wrong here. Isn't that hype more warranted due to the results the Dutch young talents produce vis-a-vis Belgian talents? Give an example, like for example Kelderman, Gesink and Mollema, how have the Belgian talents fared during their espoir years in comparison? Oh, and just like you asked Timmy, I'm asking you not to take this the wrong way, I really don't know much about Belgian espoirs.

 

[El Pistolero]

Correct me if I'm wrong here. Isn't that hype more warranted due to the results the Dutch young talents produce vis-a-vis Belgian talents? Give an example, like for example Kelderman, Gesink and Mollema, how have the Belgian talents fared during their espoir years in comparison?

I'm pretty sure no Belgian would have made a "Philippe Gilbert is the new Eddy Merckx" thread when he first turned pro

Or a "Vanmarcke is the new Roger de Vlaeminck" thread to keep it more recent.

Tosh van der Sande for example has won LBL for espoirs last year. He's a junior WC in the points race(track cycling) and has won stages in prestigious U23 races.

 

[Spine Concept]

I'm pretty sure no Belgian would have made a "Philippe Gilbert is the new Eddy Merckx" thread when he first turned pro

Or a "Vanmarcke is the new Roger de Vlaeminck" thread to keep it more recent.

C'mon man, you know how D_T gets when it comes to Dutch talents. You are generalizing now, which isn't fair to the rest. Aside from that D_T says that he's just taking the **** out of everyone. Though you still haven't addressed my initial question. The Dutch talents warrant more ''hype'' than Belgian talents in that regard, no? I'm not saying over-hyping like the title of this thread, but just that they get more mentions generally.

 

[El Pistolero]

That was a tongue in cheek, sometimes you really got to be able to take a joke man

I edited my post somewhat though, so re-read. Martijn Degreve got a silver medal at the junior WC this year if you need another example. Also won the Ronde van Vlaanderen. He's riding for the feeder team of Omega Pharma - Quick Step right now.

 

[Spine Concept]

That was a tongue in cheek, sometimes you really got to be able to take a joke man

I edited my post somewhat do, so re-read. Martijn Degreve got a silver medal at the junior WC this year if you need another example. Also won the Ronde van Vlaanderen. He's riding for the feeder team of Omega Pharma - Quick Step right now.

Thanks for that. Didn't know any of them to be honest. Maybe you ought to mention them more often. I'm not saying over-hyping of course. Tosh seems like a good talent. I will be keeping an eye on him. Do you reckon it will be a long time before he breaks into the pro team?

 

[theyoungest]

Tosh Van der Sande is a pretty good rider. He deserves a thread, and since El Pistolero is the Belgian Dekker_Tifosi, I suggest he creates it, with a title like "The Official Tosh Van der Sande is the new Greg van Avermaet Thread". So this nonsense about Kelderman being the new great hope gets balanced out a bit.

 

[El Pistolero]

Don't you mean "Tosh van der Sande is the new Greg van Average" thread? And I really don't really like hyping someone who hasn't proven him self with the pros yet, so I won't be making that thread

 

[frandy]

No one's expectations are too high. Most of the cyclists that are ''hyped'' or talked about most have a great palmares in their espoir years to warrant being mentioned. That is the only indication one can have that a certain cyclist can have a big future in cycling. I'm not saying that some people don't abuse that privilege - what's known as over-hyping - but it's not like it is plucked out of thin air either. Aside from that I think most people can be guilty of a bit of chauvinism/patriotism, that's quite normal. Finally, I don't know how ''big'' of a cycling nation the Netherlands really is. It is true that they have produced many talents of late, but other than the tour and the AGR I don't think many people here care as much as say in Belgium. Speed skating is much more popular here, as is football, both of which the Netherlands are considered to be big in worldwide.



I agree, for now, about Gesink not being able to outperform Contador and Schleck in the mountains. The others you speak of I cannot make out but I always thought that third spot was wide open for many riders. However, like you said, it all depends on the parcours, if it is mountainous and has little tting than Gesink would have to be among the favorites for third in my opinion. Climbing-wise I think Gesink is better than both Basso and Wiggins. Don't take my word for it though, watch the Vuelta of 09. Other than that though you are right, but I haven't heard anyone on here state that Gesink would win the tour if everyone is fit. Thus I don't know where this is coming from.



If Mollema's achievement in the Vuelta can be belittled due to a weak field than many people on here claiming that Froome is the next big thing have another thing coming. I don't necessarily disagree with you but then some people need to pipe down a bit about Froome and how he is already so much better than Gesink because of his Vuelta performance. Aside from that, many people tend to forget that Mollema had the tour in his legs before doing the Vuelta. Thus, the Vuelta wasn't even really his target. He might have been past his peak moment or at the end of it during the Vuelta.
As for Kruijswijk, last year was his first time as the leader in a GT. He did extremely well, above and beyond anyone's expectations. Thus you can understand that many people got excited about him. So it wasn't until last year that people really began having higher expectations of him which is logical, but no one is saying he'll win a GT soon, especially not the tour.




I agree about the tour, for now. However, this is not only true for Rabobank. We ought to remember though that most of these guys you mentioned are still relatively young. People expect so much from them because they did so well at a young age but tend to forget that they are still growing each year. Wiggins is 31, we'll see when each of these riders you mentioned are 31 and see who has the better palmares.

Ha ha u joking now gesink a better climber than basso,he would destroy gesink on long climbs gesink would av a better kick but basso would ride him off his wheel.Ivan basso would of had 4 giro's and a tour bye now if e didnt get banned check 04 and 05. he was armstrong's main challenger and he would of won the tour defo look at giro 10 basso the king diesel.

 

[Havetts]

Ha ha u joking now gesink a better climber than basso,he would destroy gesink on long climbs gesink would av a better kick but basso would ride him off his wheel.Ivan basso would of had 4 giro's and a tour bye now if e didnt get banned check 04 and 05. he was armstrong's main challenger and he would of won the tour defo look at giro 10 basso the king diesel.

My god, could you atleast put some more effort into this troll. Take a look at Pistrollero if you want to do it properly, this is just a disgrace to trolls in general.

 

[frandy]

My god, could you atleast put some more effort into this troll. Take a look at Pistrollero if you want to do it properly, this is just a disgrace to trolls in general.

Dude how am i a troll look at my convesation on pg 8 9 etc i think gesink can win a Gt i said i dnt think hes on bassos level YET that is not trolling ive had enough of u anyway im starting to believe el pistollero that you dutch get so wound up its laughable.im not hating on gesink just saying that basso is the king diesel look at giro 2006 riding people off his wheel like the great gibo simoni he want a bad climber eh?

BYE THE WAY YOUR FAV WORD TROLL AINT IT WELL ITS NOT TRUE IN MY CASE.

 

[Spine Concept]

Dude how am i a troll look at my convesation on pg 8 9 etc i think gesink can win a Gt i said i dnt think hes on bassos level YET that is not trolling ive had enough of u anyway im starting to believe el pistollero that you dutch get so wound up its laughable.im not hating on gesink just saying that basso is the king diesel look at giro 2006 riding people off his wheel like the great gibo simoni he want a bad climber eh?

BYE THE WAY YOUR FAV WORD TROLL AINT IT WELL ITS NOT TRUE IN MY CASE.

I don't think it's what you say as much as how you say it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you cannot bring it over in a non-civil way and expect to be appreciated. How would you have reacted had I worded that I thought Gesink can climb at least as well as Basso like this ''LOL you're joking now, Gesink would DESTROY Basso in the mountains''. Do you see the difference? You have to realize that opinions differ and something that is evident to you might not be so for others. Thus, a reaction like Havetts' should not have surprised you. You brought this upon yourself, so don't go throwing around the ''Dutchies are easy to wind up'' crap. Whilst this might be true in some cases it is not in this case.

 

[frandy]

I don't think it's what you say as much as how you say it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you cannot bring it over in a non-civil way and expect to be appreciated. How would you have reacted had I worded that I thought Gesink can climb at least as well as Basso like this ''LOL you're joking now, Gesink would DESTROY Basso in the mountains''. Do you see the difference? You have to realize that opinions differ and something that is evident to you might not be so for others. Thus, a reaction like Havetts' should not have surprised you. You brought this upon yourself, so don't go throwing around the ''Dutchies are easy to wind up'' crap. Whilst this might be true in some cases it is not in this case.

I get what you mean destroy but that doesnt make me some troll. this is a troll gesink cant climb gesink who?etc.you said that gesink can climb better than basso which as i say is not true YET meaning basso is getting on and i think hes only got 1 giro left in him.i think gesink will win a GT just not the tour hes not better than schleck or contador in less both are absent i cant see it i would like it if he could tho to break what looks certain to be domination in future bey contador and andy

 

[El Pistolero]

There's a reason why Basso got banned

 

[greenedge]

No he didn't. Having made the front group in the Strade Bianche stage in the Giro, he crashed horribly.

Ah Thx ( sry ). Thats' the reason i had the Question marks ( as i was not sure of what happened to him last year )

 

[greenedge]

Climbing-wise I think Gesink is better than both Basso and Wiggins. Don't take my word for it though, watch the Vuelta of 09. Other than that though you are right, but I haven't heard anyone on here state that Gesink would win the tour if everyone is fit. Thus I don't know where this is coming from.
If Mollema's achievement in the Vuelta can be belittled due to a weak field than many people on here claiming that Froome is the next big thing have another thing coming. I don't necessarily disagree with you but then some people need to pipe down a bit about Froome and how he is already so much better than Gesink because of his Vuelta performance. Aside from that, many people tend to forget that Mollema had the tour in his legs before doing the Vuelta. Thus, the Vuelta wasn't even really his target. He might have been past his peak moment or at the end of it during the Vuelta.
As for Kruijswijk, last year was his first time as the leader in a GT. He did extremely well, above and beyond anyone's expectations. Thus you can understand that many people got excited about him. So it wasn't until last year that people really began having higher expectations of him which is logical, but no one is saying he'll win a GT soon, especially not the tour.
People expect so much from them because they did so well at a young age but tend to forget that they are still growing each year. Wiggins is 31, we'll see when each of these riders you mentioned are 31 and see who has the better palmares.

Wiggins i think is one of the best all-round cyclists ( track medallist/ GT podiums ) and a great ITTer so he would have a better palmares in the ITT sense then ( Mollma/ Gesink/ Kruijswijk ). It does remain to be seen whether those 3 riders all who are better climbers than Wiggins ( excepting maybe Mollema who is more punchy/ suited to one day races in MY VIEW ) can get a better palmares GT wise. Basso is by far a better climber than Mollema/ Kruisjwijk at the moment and has got a great GT palmares that no one can dispute.

I think if Kruisjwijk went to the Giro this year he could finish in the top 5 but that will not be happening since he is going to the TDF. Your point about Mollema having the TDF in his legs is moot because he only showed himself on one stage and could not reel back EBH. I think he had better form at the Vuelta therefore than at the TDF.

 

[greenedge]

As for last vuelta, it was a weak field. Froome is overrated imo.
I dont think Mollemas 4th place is more impressive then some of gesink's performance, no way.

In that sense he should have gone better then.

 

[greenedge]

I'm talking about Rabobank's feeder team. They're one of the best teams out there in the U23 category.

And I never said anything about Lotto being better than Rabobank. This isn't a competition on how long your **** is you know. What I did say was that Lotto deserves a mention before teams like Garmin and Sky

Garmin have quite a good feeder team.

 

[greenedge]

Bart de Clercq won a Giro stage in his first year as a pro and he comes from the Lotto feeder team. Just saying. He might not be that young anymore, but he started cycling in 2008 which makes it even more impressive. And you don't hear that much from him here to be honest. I hope you don't take offence to this, but on average the Dutch talents are more hyped here than the Belgian talents. I'm talking about the youngsters of course, not the likes of Boonen and Gilbert.

Someone was earlier saying here ( i think??? ) Vanmarcke does not deserve to be hyped ( even though he is younger than Gesink, Mollema and Kruisjwijk ) and is more of a specialised rider on the cobbles whereas those riders target stage races/ GT's.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

In that sense he should have gone better then.

who? Gesink?
Remember he crashed in the vuelta, in a stronger field whilst in second place with 1 easy mountain stage left where no leaders lost time, and a ITT which wasn't too damaging (in fact gesink did a reasonable itt considering his injuries at the time)

And at the tour he crashed also, plus had to ride for menchov.

 

[Spine Concept]

Wiggins i think is one of the best all-round cyclists ( track medallist/ GT podiums ) and a great ITTer so he would have a better palmares in the ITT sense then ( Mollma/ Gesink/ Kruijswijk ). It does remain to be seen whether those 3 riders all who are better climbers than Wiggins ( excepting maybe Mollema who is more punchy/ suited to one day races in MY VIEW ) can get a better palmares GT wise. Basso is by far a better climber than Mollema/ Kruisjwijk at the moment and has got a great GT palmares that no one can dispute.

That Wiggins is a better itter is obvious, though I never compared them using only itt as a criteria, that would've been extremely dense on my part. None of those three will ever match Wiggins in that department. I was speaking about GT's, one-week races, and hilly classics. I still think at least two of them will have a better palmares by age 31 in that regard. Kruijswijk is the odd one out as his emergence is fairly recent and his limits unknown.
About Basso being a better climber than Mollema/Kruijswijk, I never contested that, so I don't know where that came from. I only compared Gesink to Basso, and I am adamant that the former is the better climber.

I think if Kruisjwijk went to the Giro this year he could finish in the top 5 but that will not be happening since he is going to the TDF. Your point about Mollema having the TDF in his legs is moot because he only showed himself on one stage and could not reel back EBH. I think he had better form at the Vuelta therefore than at the TDF.

In that sense he should have gone better then.

I was hoping Kruijswijk would do the Giro again this year, but I guess three times in a row is one too many at Rabobank. They put all their eggs in one basket; big risk in my opinion. As for the Mollema argument, I don't think it's moot. One does not ''just'' ride a tour and not feel the mileage in your legs, especially at a younger age. Aside from that, Mollema mistimed his peak obviously, so who knows in what form he was at the Vuelta. Sure, he had seemingly better form, though again, the field was very much weakened vis-a-vis the tour. However, how do you know if he was in top form? Or if his form was on the downturn?
I'm not saying it's a given, I'm just not overlooking that possibility and that maybe he really could have done better. Who knows until he really targets the Vuelta at some point.