Race interference: Protests, Sabotage, and Assaults

[red_flanders]

I’ll invite you to pay both broad and granular attention to responses to civil strife in the US the next few years and see if you can work out some examples.

Failing that, maybe take a closer look at some responses to the cycling protests and see if they can honestly be described as measured and understanding. See if all the police handling any such events categorically do not meet some aspect of those criteria.

Who one has or hasn’t met or experienced in life is often not the best claim to overall validity.

This response has nothing to do with anyone or anything being discussed in the thread. Future projections of how unnamed persons might respond to civil strife in a country which isn't hosting the Vuelta? Well, that's a response. Certainly isn't an answer.

Not that any of what you just posted supports your presumed ability to read minds, asserting that there are some people for whom "protest is almost inherently unacceptable or incomprehensible". Again, that's an incredible claim on several levels.

I would say a great deal, if not most of the responses to the protests have been measured. I can't speak to understanding.

 

[Hugh Januss]

OK I've watched it more times. The guy with the flag was not hiding in the bushes, at least not when the group comes by, he is sitting on the bank above the ditch. He rises and starts down the ditch where he stumbles and falls on the shoulder not in anyone's way (whatever his intent may have been). The group is passing the perp. when a cop runs across the road directly in front of the lead Lidl rider who moves right to avoid him, 4th Lidl rider collects up Romo's front wheel as he follows his teammates to the right. Had the cop waited until the group had passed and then gone to arrest the guy no one would have crashed. Yes it's (probably indirectly) the protesters fault and he should be fined or jailed. Having watched what I watched I just have a hard time with all of social media and real media making it seem like the guy jumped straight out of the bushes into the middle of the group of cyclists and knocked them all down.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I was thinking about that, too. They should definitely be forced to wear helmets and mouth guards. It's only a matter of time before someone gets seriously hurt from falling over head first at the side of the road.

It's interesting indeed, when it comes to protesters causing crashes all are now upset about rider safety and all sort of ideas are involved, on what could be done. I am OK with that, lets do it then.

 

[CyclistAbi]

So assuming we all agree protestors are here to stay, what is worse outcome, race cancelled altogether or high risk factor causing the protest to be removed and race to continue? Not just this race, future races too.

P.S. Or option three, current one, on where nothing gets done and riders are the one that have to deal with the consequences.

 

[AmRacer]

So assuming we all agree protestors are here to stay, what is worse outcome, race cancelled altogether or high risk factor causing the protest to be removed and race to continue? Not just this race, future races too.

P.S. Or option three, current one, on where nothing gets done and riders are the one that have to deal with the consequences.

Giving in to protesters demands will just enable other protesters. We cannot have it that way.

 

[aphronesis]

This response has nothing to do with anyone or anything being discussed in the thread. Future projections of how unnamed persons might respond to civil strife in a country which isn't hosting the Vuelta? Well, that's a response. Certainly isn't an answer.

Not that any of what you just posted supports your presumed ability to read minds, asserting that there are some people for whom "protest is almost inherently unacceptable or incomprehensible". Again, that's an incredible claim on several levels.

I would say a great deal, if not most of the responses to the protests have been measured. I can't speak to understanding.

I was asked a question and I answered with a general response to your question and then with thread specific examples.

The original post was similarly a response to an abstract question that bears on the nature of the thread and Red Rick’s own position. I answered him based on a lifetime of observation, discussion, harassment and reading without going into examples that are off topic i.e. political.

I can give you bibliographies, video clips, historical events but all are off topic.

Perhaps you haven’t seen or read comprehensively in. re. responses to the cycling protests much beyond this thread. Again, that’s not a limitation of my making.

Possibly of yours. Constraints of the forum being what they are, I can only invite you to change it. If something comes down a feed the next few days and the source and overall content hold to the thread rules, I’ll see if I can get it for you.

 

[red_flanders]

The guy with the flag was not hiding in the bushes, at least not when the group comes by, he is sitting on the bank above the ditch.

I see no bushes either, but he's clearly hiding. He's crouched low on the far side of the ditch. There's no other reason for this behavior, then we see obviously why he's doing it. To avoid being seen by the police he clearly knows are nearby.

He rises and starts down the ditch where he stumbles and falls on the shoulder not in anyone's way (whatever his intent may have been).

"Rises" seems passive for what we see. He sprints and leaps at the road, faceplants, and due to his own ineptitude, avoids running into the group. Running into the road and the riders almost certainly appeared to be his intent, given the speed and timing of his....pounce.

The group is passing the perp. when a cop runs across the road directly in front of the lead Lidl rider who moves right to avoid him, 4th Lidl rider collects up Romo's front wheel as he follows his teammates to the right. Had the cop waited until the group had passed and then gone to arrest the guy no one would have crashed.

Agreed. Really poor move from the cop, valuing the immediate pursuit over the safety of the riders. Totally him who (eventually) caused it. Obviously had the idiot who face planted not attempted to interfere with or even injure the riders, no police actions would have been needed and none of it would have happened.

Yes it's (probably indirectly) the protesters fault and he should be fined or jailed.

Agreed.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Giving in to protesters demands will just enable other protesters. We cannot have it that way.

So basically what you are saying is lets stick with option three for now on where riders will get sacrificed again and their safety will again be totally disregarded. I mean, yeah, i tend to agree with you, that this is what we currently have and there are no hints anybody plans to change it. Organiser is the only one trying with some hide and seek and that is it. Do you reckon riders will say enough is enough at some point, for option three to get exhausted? And then what? Protestors likely still to be there, what to do next?

So assuming we all agree protestors are here to stay, what is worse outcome, race cancelled altogether or high risk factor causing the protest to be removed and race to continue? Not just this race, future races too.

P.S. As for you using a line from some action movie you seen on TV, note that, no, this is not it, it's not the way cycling and sports works. Teams IMHO actually will need to be sensitive to avoid any possible causes that would trigger protests in the future and if they still would they will need to actively participate in resolving it.

 

[pastronef]

if one of the 3 Grand Tours, owned by ASO, stops on Saturday and cancels the last stage to Madrid because of the protests, I don't see how Israel-Premiertech will be able to race in 2026.

 

[AmRacer]

So basically what you are saying is lets stick with option three for now on where riders will get sacrificed again and their safety will again be totally disregarded. I mean, yeah, i tend to agree with you, that this is what we currently have and there are no hints anybody plans to change it. Organiser is the only one trying with some hide and seek and that is it. Do you reckon riders will say enough is enough at some point, for option three to get exhausted? And then what? Protestors likely still to be there, what to do next?



P.S. As for you using a line from some action movie you seen on TV, note that, no, this is not it, it's not the way cycling and sports works. Teams IMHO actually will need to be sensitive to avoid any possible causes that would trigger protests in the future and if they still would they will need to actively participate in resolving it.

Giving in to protesters every know and then will result with anarchy. All and every group who which to protest at something will come out. Cannot have it that way.

 

[CyclistAbi]

if one of the 3 Grand Tours, owned by ASO, stops on Saturday and cancels the last stage to Madrid because of the protests, I don't see how Israel-Premiertech will be able to race in 2026.

I mean if the team itself and parties like UCI don't plan to do anything to meet the demands of the protestors, or if the underlying issues don't get resolved elsewhere, then of course this will only get worse.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Giving in to protesters every know and then will result with anarchy. All and every group who which to protest at something will come out. Cannot have it that way.

Of course in the end we will have it that way. UCI, the team, organiser ... they have no means to stop it. For now it only still works the way you described it due to cyclists being prepared to further decrease their safety. Most of them likely not by choice. So when riders say we had enough, of course then most of the demands will be meet, or there won't be any races.

 

[AmRacer]

Of course in the end we will have it that way. UCI, the team, organiser ... they have no means to stop it.

I don't fancy anarchy.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I don't fancy anarchy.

Actually it is the other way around, order will be restored.

 

[AmRacer]

Actually it is the other way around, order will be restored.

The police will take care of the protesters

 

[CyclistAbi]

The police will take care of the protesters

We had this debate already, yesterday, somehow we concluded baton won't work. But feel free to believe it will. For now there is still this illusion, on how somebody really has such power, it doesn't. The only reason this illusion is still here is due to riders enduring it, for now, the rest are standing (hiding) on their shoulders.

 

[AmRacer]

We had this debate already, yesterday, somehow we concluded baton won't work. But feel free to believe it will. For now there is still this illusion, on how somebody really has such power, it doesn't. The only reason this illusion is still here is due to riders enduring it, for now, the rest are standing (hiding) on their shoulders.

Anarchy doesn't work either.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Anarchy doesn't work either.

ATM there indeed is a bit of anarchy going on, on when it comes to sportswashing in the sports. AFAIK and in general whenever that triggers protests then protestors are mostly eliminating that from the system, they aren't hence attacking the system itself. AFAIK there where no demands to cancel cycling.

 

[scribers]

That’s quite an assertion. I’ve literally never in my life met a person for whom “protest is almost inherently unacceptable or incomprehensible”.

Who are these people exactly? Where and how has this behavior manifested so we might judge the accuracy of this claim?

There is a spectrum of viewpoints and a stunning amount of people view demonstration as disorder requiring authoritative action.

 

[red_flanders]

There is a spectrum of viewpoints and a stunning amount of people view demonstration as disorder requiring authoritative action.

Haven't seen a bit of it on this thread.

 

[AmRacer]

ATM there indeed is a bit of anarchy going on, on when it comes to sportswashing in the sports. AFAIK and in general whenever that triggers protests then protestors are mostly eliminating that from the system, they aren't hence attacking the system itself. AFAIK there where no demands to cancel cycling.

Police taking care of the protesters or anarchy.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@AmRacer

I feel that we sort of established already, through discussion, you have unrealistic expectations. Another proof of that might come already the day after tomorrow. So lets hope that parties involved will do everything in their power, to de-escalate and make peloton a tad safer for riders. If they won't then IMHO riders themself should make the next move and force that. In the end it's them, who ATM are sole recipients of the consequences.

 

[scribers]

Haven't seen a bit of it on this thread.

You might have missed a ban or two. But these are just micro data sets. History will show you the spectrum with very little necessary critical thought application.

 

[jono]

That’s quite an assertion. I’ve literally never in my life met a person for whom “protest is almost inherently unacceptable or incomprehensible”.

Who are these people exactly? Where and how has this behavior manifested so we might judge the accuracy of this claim?

Nearly everyone will say something to the effect of "I believe in their right to protest, as long as they don't (fill in the blank)." That "blank" usually amounts to "inconvenience anyone in any way whatsoever".

 

[red_flanders]

You might have missed a ban or two. But these are just micro data sets. History will show you the spectrum with very little necessary critical thought application.

I've seen comments I don't like or agree with which were promptly deleted and bans handed out. As they should have been. I haven't seen "protest is almost inherently unacceptable or incomprehensible". That's all I'm saying. Don't think I've missed a thing.

I've definitely seen (made) entirely reasonable comments which garnered some deeply disturbing reactions, and wild mis-reading of intent.

It seems if one is not a fan of mobs taking over events, then one is labeled as being anti-protest and pro-authoritarian...or much worse. I've not reported posts to that effect, in the hope that otherwise good posters wouldn't get perma-banned for momentary lapses of reason. I'm sure the mods have seen them and they're being quite lenient.

I've seen people mistake an "objection to interference and violence" as pro-authoritarianism. Seems a few folks are looking to paint the fellow forum members in the worst light to justify their stance. I've had people say I'm "missing the point" because I've tried to stick to the rules while they deeply desire to debate politics. I've seen posters assume I and others have a certain POV because we don't want the race interrupted. Criticizing tactics and wanting it to stop has been conflated and inflated into wild assumptions about political positions. It's at times been hard to watch.

Probably time to gut check if people are making the "most respectful interpretation" of others' posts and intent. For the most part, the folks with whom I've debated on this thread are good, reasonable, smart posters. But I can like and respect people with whom I deeply disagree. I guess it's part of getting older.

As if on cue:

Nearly everyone will say something to the effect of "I believe in their right to protest, as long as they don't (fill in the blank)." That "blank" usually amounts to "inconvenience anyone in any way whatsoever".

Nope. You've seen people say they support protest, but not interfering with the race, the sport, or endangering riders. That's it. That you seem to need to make it something else belies the weakness of your argument.