Radios in races - are you in favour?

[craig1985]

Yes - but only that the riders can talk back to the DS but they can't talk back. I would only do so that a rider is not disadvantaged if he loses time to a flat or a crash (I don't care whether or not it is Alberto Contador or Tom Stubbe) or if they are going back for water.

I type this thread in regards that the French National Championships will be done with out radios. From the front page:

While different commissions at the UCI are in talks about the use and abuse of radio communication via ear pieces between directeurs sportifs and riders, the French have decided to ban them at the national championship in Saint-Brieuc on June 28.

"It's an experiment and we hope it will show better cycling," said Marc Madiot who took this decision as the president of the French pro cycling league (LCPF) that oversees teams, riders and organisers. Under French law, the LCPF runs professional cycling on a national level separately from the French cycling federation (FFC), but it appeared that the new president of the FFC, David Lappartient, is also a strong opponent of radios. He's the leader of the anti-radio movement on the board of the UCI.

"We want to restore the initiative of the riders," Madiot said. "They have to study the courses of the races like we used to do when we competed before the inception of the radios. By doing so, we also intend to restore the essence of the job of the directeur sportif. Without radios, the morning's briefing has to be perfect because there's no possibility to correct the instructions during the race."

The organisers of the Tour de France are also considering a ban on radios.

 

[the delgados]

i vote yes to radios.

every sport i can think of involves in-game interraction between coach and athlete.

why not cycling?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

We had a big poll and discussion on this recently. Click here.

I would like to see them limited. I just posted in one of the Giro threads an example from the Vesuvius stage. Here's pretty much a cut and paste: When Sastre took off up the road for Vesuvius, he could not be seen by the leaders due to the topography. They had no idea how far up the road he was. Except they did, because of race radio. Had there been no radio to give Menchov time splits on Sastre, Di Luca could have sat on Menchov's wheel and said "you guess how far he is up the mountain buddy" and Menchov would have had to at some point consider pulling, out of concern that he would lose to overall GC to Sastre. But he didn't have to do that and DDL knew it. He only had to worry about one rider: Di Luca. The team car kept checks on Sastre for him. To me, this is what needs to be eliminated.

The advantage of race radio is informing the riders of hazards immediately. But I'd like to think there are ways of having this still workable through radio limitations.

 

[craig1985]

Fair enough Alpe, I was on holidays at the time. I'm happy if this get merged or shut.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I'm happy to keep discussing it, actually.

 

[mr. tibbs]

I'm happy to keep discussing it, actually.

Me too.

In keeping with Alpe's Di Luca theme, The Killer doesn't race with radio. I saw one in the TT (for splits, I guess--it certainly wasn't to have his DS shouting VI VI VI! in his ear, I think), but other than that, I haven't noticed one.

That's also how Di luca won all his classics. It's also how he won the Giro. Maybe the reason he's such an animated (read: aggressive) cyclist is b/c he has to be, b/c he doesn't know what's happening outside his field of vision.

Radios are lame.

 

[joe_papp]

Yes - but only that the riders can talk back to the DS but they can't talk back. I would only do so that a rider is not disadvantaged if he loses time to a flat or a crash (I don't care whether or not it is Alberto Contador or Tom Stubbe) or if they are going back for water.

I type this thread in regards that the French National Championships will be done with out radios. From the front page:

Absolutely in favor, but not for tactical decisions...rather, they're awesome for service/food requests ("Hey, Director! I'm coming back to the car for 2 bottles of water, 2 bottles of mix, a can of Coke, 2 boxes of Extran, 5 gels and a ham sandwich - have ' em ready for me!") and for updates on road conditions ("Hey Riders! It's your Director. In 1 km there is a road works ahead and the danger of flat tire due to gravel. MOVE UP!").

Tactically, I found them helpful but not something that turned me into an automaton (the Dopingsubstanzen did, tho) - but I grew up racing and learned tactics like how to sit on a wheel and then sprint in the era before radios were standard issue, even to juniors.

 

[elapid]

I would like to see their use limited. I think flat stages would be more exciting if the sprinters' teams had to control the peloton during the stage rather than doing the rather monotonous let the escape go and chase them down 500m before the finish line. I do think radios make some riders lose their tactical skills - Leipheimer and Astana were lost in the woods when the radios went down during the rainy stage one of the Tour of California. They didn't know what to do with Mancebo and the break. But, for safety reasons, they should be used to a limited degree.

 

[tifosa]

no radios!

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

As I said in the other thread, I think a good start might be to simply eliminate course radios, broadcast radio and TV, cell phones, and outside contact from the team cars. Thus they won't know who is where up the road and be able to give splits and directions to riders as such. The only exception to this is if the teams could get info from course officials to hazards. This would allow teams to communicate with riders for food/water and relay hazard info.

I think it would be good to try to test this, and test no radios at all, in a few races and see what happens. But right now, it just gets a little silly when every single break is caught 1k from the finish, or riders on GC who jump on break aren't paid attention to by those on the road, as the team car will monitor everything (like Sastre's attack on Vesuvius).

 

[krebs303]

Columbia's Michael Barry is currently racing in the Giro. He said he has mixed feelings about the use of radios, but that their overall impact on the sport is negative.

“I would argue that the radios have made the races more dangerous and less intriguing,” Barry said. “Radios have some advantages, but many disadvantages. Races have become formulaic as the directors orchestrate things from the car, where they have televisions, radios and all the info needed to change the outcome.“Riders have become less instinctive and more reliant on that information,” noted Barry. “A cyclist is not only a set of legs but also a mind. Some of the greatest cyclists were not the most physically talented, but won by using their intelligence and instinct.”

” Barry said even the use of radios to warn of hazards has its risks.

“Radios provide the benefit of giving the directors (the ability to) relay information to riders to tell them about the hazards ahead,” he said. “This is useful to some degree but also creates panic in the peloton, which is often more dangerous than the actual hazard as every team races to the front.”

 

[OctaBech]

Radios aren't just bad but in fact add a lot to the tactics, a few weeks ago we saw how Andy Shleck won L-B-L through outstanding tactics catching the competition on the bed, which wouldn't have been possible without radios.

It would be unfair to remove the radios just because certain sport directors don't know how to use them/can't think further than train tactics.

There must be other ways to hide the split times for the riders/cars, like one way communication or forbid the cars to have TVs and race radio on board.
At least radio communication between the riders should be kept, so we can see a repeat of the cork manoeuvre from L-B-L or the tactics CSC used in last year's TdF to dominate mountain stages with breakaway riders.

Because these tactics ensure that the smarter riders have a chance against the stronger riders too, just like the argument to remove radios from sprinter teams to allow bold breakaways.

 

[BigBoat]

You'd still get time gaps, spectator relay info, bench directors at the side of the road, etc.

But the radios F- up the overall timing of attacks on climbs, like "Ullrich" or "Landis" style moves. Also, on long flat stretches with little spectators a break could more easily slip away too.

 

[gingerwallaceafro]

The absence of radios makes it a lot more interesting, and it tests riders skills as whether to stick or twist, they have to make more decisions themselves and be more vigilant. It's more a game of chess on wheels decided by the players rather than the 'computer'. Days in the mountains pre-radios were more exciting for sure.

 

[OctaBech]

The absence of radios makes it a lot more interesting, and it tests riders skills as whether to stick or twist, they have to make more decisions themselves and be more vigilant. It's more a game of chess on wheels decided by the players rather than the 'computer'. Days in the mountains pre-radios were more exciting for sure.

How come?

The riders communicating with each other only add to the depth of the game, it doesn't subtract.

Can anyone here who talk about tactics actually mention better tactics pre-dating the radios? I can't think of a single one, it's more about timing and having the legs which could be handled through blocking the cars from receiving race radio.

 

[gingerwallaceafro]

I think it's a more psychological game without them, without the luxury of an immediate voice updating riders in real time. Breaks are more likely to succeed and riders in a break are more likely to believe that they will succeed, what benefits do radios bring cycling fans and intelligent riders?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Well, as I said before, I do like the idea of limiting contact to the outside world.

Anyone who studies old races (and I'm talking pre-1990 old here, not Fausto Coppi old) can tell that breaks in the mountains, and on the flats, used to work far more frequently than now. It's just silly that we're now see time and time and time again riders that go off the front reeled in 1k form the finish, and no one attacking from more than about 10k out on the final climb as they know they won't get an advantage as their gap will be controlled by team managers in cars watching their every move. Yes, I suppose this is still tactics, precision tactics, but dictated by team management back in the car.

At the very least we should test limiting them. Have some races where teams in cars can't communicate with the outside world. Have some races with no radio at all. Let's at least try this and see what happens. I think racing would be more exciting.

 

[Bala Verde]

Yes.

Maybe this will attract some big sponsors like Verizon and At&T to the scene

 

[ElChingon]

Yea, in the future with Garmin and how they can track Cell radios, I suspect other teams will plant a tag on the GC rider's bike and know exactly where he is at all times . Then if its over open air the radio operators can submit counter intelligence on where their riders are or if the break is fully caught or not. Then if we add encryption the more wealthy teams can encrypt all their communications and be stealthy as to their tactics behind the mic. Then again, as hackers most likely other teams will also hire crackers to break the code and decipher the messages in real time. Then in the way way future one could implant a sensor in someone's helmet/hair/scalp and see what their thinking and be able to ride to counter their toughts

 

[ElChingon]

I also wonder if teams are using infared heat monitors to see if the competition is overheating and can plan an attack on said overheating rider? That technology is out there now so it maybe used!

 

[LugHugger]

How come?

The riders communicating with each other only add to the depth of the game, it doesn't subtract.

Can anyone here who talk about tactics actually mention better tactics pre-dating the radios? I can't think of a single one, it's more about timing and having the legs which could be handled through blocking the cars from receiving race radio.

from a weekend warrior perspective, i don't agree. i race every weekend in summer over approx 100-120kms and reading our races is all about experience and race savvy.

'Better tactics'? What's better than knowing when to follow an attack based on position and knowledge of your opponents and the form of your team mates? We don't race with radios or mikes.

I know that I enjoy this type of racing.

In terms of watching racing, I can categorically say that I would PREFER to watch racing where experience and observation by RIDERS determined results rather than clinical calculation and instruction.

there, i've said it. i'm happy to take the shots!

 

[LugHugger]

Yes.

Maybe this will attract some big sponsors like Verizon and At&T to the scene

Why? How does this appeal to their core markets? The ToC is their only global exposure and what do they care for global markets?

 

[42x16ss]

I'd love to see race radios removed for this year's TDF, guys like Jens Voigt would have an absolute blast! I can picture it now, every time he winds up the entire peleton would go into panic mode.

I would be happy with only riders having radios though, that way if a team wants to keep track of a break they need to have someone in it.

 

[OctaBech]

from a weekend warrior perspective, i don't agree. i race every weekend in summer over approx 100-120kms and reading our races is all about experience and race savvy.

'Better tactics'? What's better than knowing when to follow an attack based on position and knowledge of your opponents and the form of your team mates? We don't race with radios or mikes.

I know that I enjoy this type of racing.

In terms of watching racing, I can categorically say that I would PREFER to watch racing where experience and observation by RIDERS determined results rather than clinical calculation and instruction.

there, i've said it. i'm happy to take the shots!

Okey dokey, communication between riders do not hinder a rider's observation skills and experience, in fact on a team like Saxo Bank the older more experienced riders(usually not the rider the team is riding for) handle the contact with the car and make the needed decisions, not the DS.

If only the cars were cut from split times, then radios could actually add to distance calculation tactics, by the teams sending domestic riders with the breakaways to report back the pace.

In L-B-L radio tactics were brought to a new level when Kroon and Kolobnev created a breakaway group and held it straight in front of the peloton(exchanged pace readouts with Nikki Sorensen in the head of the peloton) over 10Kms for then to use the breakaway to block the favourites after Andy had attacked, giving him an 8-11sec lead at the top of the hill.

To me this is much more fun than the old train "tactic" which didn't really make a difference if one had an Armstrong or Contador on the team.
So I'd prefer if people stopped using the tactics excuse and told the truth, that they'd rather have the legs make the difference.

I'd love to see race radios removed for this year's TDF, guys like Jens Voigt would have an absolute blast! I can picture it now, every time he winds up the entire peleton would go into panic mode.

I would be happy with only riders having radios though, that way if a team wants to keep track of a break they need to have someone in it.

Please don't use Voigt as an excuse, he is quite fine about radios and ride for the team which rely on radios the most.

You can use Thomas Voeckler.

 

[Bala Verde]

Why? How does this appeal to their core markets? The ToC is their only global exposure and what do they care for global markets?

just like US Postal . At least AT&T prides itself in being the world's largest network, and they are using the GSM network, that's being used in 75% of the ROW. Verizon, aren't they the ones that make those walky-talky phones? Maybe a good time for T-Mobile to make a come back, since they are expanding their base in US market... Aren't their any weird and huge US concrete or steel manufacturers, like Hungarian 'betonexpresz' or soemthing like an Abramoviclike 'gasprom'...

But hey if we are actually trying to find reasons to sponsor cycling...

Why are Liquigas or Lampre, LPR, Astana, a sponsor. Where do they sell their products, and what does Astana even 'sell' besides a happily smiling sun? Or Skil-Shimano? Does Shimano really need any extra 'cycling' exposure (or perhaps it's like a cervelo test team).