Rate the 2016 Giro route!

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

I think the Giro one is both harder and better compared to the Tour de France, sorry I meant Vuelta a Norte España y Francia stage.

It's a lot better in my book, actually. The Vuelta one is just who can climb Aubisque the fastest after 3 anæmically raced climbs beforehand.

Well, if we start to consider how hard a stage will be ridden too, I think neither will be the hardest. In the giro stage there is a MTT the next day so I wouldnt expect any attacks on the giau. In the vuelta stage the hardest climb is the last one, so I also don't expect anything before it.
So maybe stage 20 of the giro or the tdf will be the hardest, because if the gc is still open it will be a massacre right from the beginning.

Agreed, both stage 20 could be epic.

 

[Ataraxus]

Re: Re:

I think the Giro one is both harder and better compared to the Tour de France, sorry I meant Vuelta a Norte España y Francia stage.

It's a lot better in my book, actually. The Vuelta one is just who can climb Aubisque the fastest after 3 anæmically raced climbs beforehand.

Well, if we start to consider how hard a stage will be ridden too, I think neither will be the hardest. In the giro stage there is a MTT the next day so I wouldnt expect any attacks on the giau. In the vuelta stage the hardest climb is the last one, so I also don't expect anything before it.
So maybe stage 20 of the giro or the tdf will be the hardest, because if the gc is still open it will be a massacre right from the beginning.

I sincerely hope for your prediction of the stages 20 to be true but honestly I expect nothing big to happen before Joux-Plane and Lombarde. Hope I will be wrong though.
Regarding the Giau stage, Landa has emphasized the absence of hard climbs in the Giro, though he has picked one or two stages in which to make the difference. Considering the (completely plausible) scenario that he will be behind Nibali in GC after the ITT, the way he excels at super hard mountain stages (Mortirolo, Cortals) and that Nibali doesn't have stellar records in suchlike stages, I think he might want to make the best out of it.
The making the best out of it part will be valid for the other climbers as well...which will be abundant in the Giro.
Anyway we'll see come the Giro.

 

[yaco]

I doubt Landa can make the podium for the Giro with the route - Lack of mountains and his extreme weakness in TT will stop him - The vuelta route better suits his characteristics.

 

[staubsauger]

I fear the Giro might only become a test balloon as well. But for the Vuelta he should be the overwhelming favorite if he attends in sharp shape!

Maybe he still tries and succeeds in some crazy long range attacks at the Giro.

One may dream: This Giro might become a 1994 revival starring Zakarin (Berzin), Landani, Nibali (Indurain) and Firsanov as Pascal Richard!

 

[Ataraxus]

Re:

I doubt Landa can make the podium for the Giro with the route - Lack of mountains and his extreme weakness in TT will stop him - The vuelta route better suits his characteristics.

For the podium all he needs is not messing up the traing programme before the Giro, good health during it and proper weather for the stages to be raced as they are on paper IMHO.
For the top podium spot it will be a lot trickier with the ITT and all those Nibali tailor-made stages

 

[Marco Pantani]

Landa will podium, if he hits 85 to 90 per cent of the shape he was in last year. Giro always offers enough opportunities for climbers to cause carnage.

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

I think the Giro one is both harder and better compared to the Tour de France, sorry I meant Vuelta a Norte España y Francia stage.

It's a lot better in my book, actually. The Vuelta one is just who can climb Aubisque the fastest after 3 anæmically raced climbs beforehand.

Well, if we start to consider how hard a stage will be ridden too, I think neither will be the hardest. In the giro stage there is a MTT the next day so I wouldnt expect any attacks on the giau. In the vuelta stage the hardest climb is the last one, so I also don't expect anything before it.
So maybe stage 20 of the giro or the tdf will be the hardest, because if the gc is still open it will be a massacre right from the beginning.

I sincerely hope for your prediction of the stages 20 to be true but honestly I expect nothing big to happen before Joux-Plane and Lombarde. Hope I will be wrong though.
Regarding the Giau stage, Landa has emphasized the absence of hard climbs in the Giro, though he has picked one or two stages in which to make the difference. Considering the (completely plausible) scenario that he will be behind Nibali in GC after the ITT, the way he excels at super hard mountain stages (Mortirolo, Cortals) and that Nibali doesn't have stellar records in suchlike stages, I think he might want to make the best out of it.
The making the best out of it part will be valid for the other climbers as well...which will be abundant in the Giro.
Anyway we'll see come the Giro.

Remind me who has the fastest Mortirolo ascent time: Nibali, or Landa? Yeah, Nibali, by a minute and a half. And while Landa might've had to work for Aru earlier, he won't ever have broken the 45 minute barrier, and that was the Nibali of 2010. 6 years on, he is a much stronger beast to contend with.

Also all of the 2014 Tour? Maybe not super hard stages but in every stage he crushed the opposition, easy MTFs or harder MTFs. And the 2013 Giro? Once again some stages called off but still won it breathing through his nose. His best performance this year came in the hardest mountain stage (IMO) on the hardest climb.

He may have struggled on the Gardeccia stage of 2011 but that was because he attacked off Passo Giau, and wasted a lot of energy. He still only finished 1:30 off Contador, who was insane that Giro.

You can say that Nibali isn't as good as Landa on climbs. I very much disagree, but respect your opinion. But saying that Nibali isn't good at hard mountain stages is just wrong, plain wrong.

 

[Ataraxus]

Re: Re:

I think the Giro one is both harder and better compared to the Tour de France, sorry I meant Vuelta a Norte España y Francia stage.

It's a lot better in my book, actually. The Vuelta one is just who can climb Aubisque the fastest after 3 anæmically raced climbs beforehand.

Well, if we start to consider how hard a stage will be ridden too, I think neither will be the hardest. In the giro stage there is a MTT the next day so I wouldnt expect any attacks on the giau. In the vuelta stage the hardest climb is the last one, so I also don't expect anything before it.
So maybe stage 20 of the giro or the tdf will be the hardest, because if the gc is still open it will be a massacre right from the beginning.

I sincerely hope for your prediction of the stages 20 to be true but honestly I expect nothing big to happen before Joux-Plane and Lombarde. Hope I will be wrong though.
Regarding the Giau stage, Landa has emphasized the absence of hard climbs in the Giro, though he has picked one or two stages in which to make the difference. Considering the (completely plausible) scenario that he will be behind Nibali in GC after the ITT, the way he excels at super hard mountain stages (Mortirolo, Cortals) and that Nibali doesn't have stellar records in suchlike stages, I think he might want to make the best out of it.
The making the best out of it part will be valid for the other climbers as well...which will be abundant in the Giro.
Anyway we'll see come the Giro.

Remind me who has the fastest Mortirolo ascent time: Nibali, or Landa? Yeah, Nibali, by a minute and a half. And while Landa might've had to work for Aru earlier, he won't ever have broken the 45 minute barrier, and that was the Nibali of 2010. 6 years on, he is a much stronger beast to contend with.

Also all of the 2014 Tour? Maybe not super hard stages but in every stage he crushed the opposition, easy MTFs or harder MTFs. And the 2013 Giro? Once again some stages called off but still won it breathing through his nose. His best performance this year came in the hardest mountain stage (IMO) on the hardest climb.

He may have struggled on the Gardeccia stage of 2011 but that was because he attacked off Passo Giau, and wasted a lot of energy. He still only finished 1:30 off Contador, who was insane that Giro.

You can say that Nibali isn't as good as Landa on climbs. I very much disagree, but respect your opinion. But saying that Nibali isn't good at hard mountain stages is just wrong, plain wrong.

Geez!
Your reply surely gets the nomination for "the least relevant reply in the forum" poll as nobody is saying Nibali isn't good in hard mountain stages (doesn't have stellar records =/= isn't good), nobody is saying Landa is better climber than Nibali (they have never raced each other) and your examples are a bit picky (you don't mention Zoncolan 2010, Finestre 2011,etc)
Anyway, to backup my statement and since numbers never lie, I will mention you the 2 hardest stages on paper that Nibali has raced and you can check his results:
1- Gardeccia 2011 (6000m altitude climbing, 50+ km of categorised climbs, 229km).
2- Tonale 2010 (~5000m altitude climbing, 60km of categorized climbs, 178km).

P.S: 1:37 min to Scarponi in 5km of Gardeccia really is not good.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Re: Re:

I think the Giro one is both harder and better compared to the Tour de France, sorry I meant Vuelta a Norte España y Francia stage.

It's a lot better in my book, actually. The Vuelta one is just who can climb Aubisque the fastest after 3 anæmically raced climbs beforehand.

Well, if we start to consider how hard a stage will be ridden too, I think neither will be the hardest. In the giro stage there is a MTT the next day so I wouldnt expect any attacks on the giau. In the vuelta stage the hardest climb is the last one, so I also don't expect anything before it.
So maybe stage 20 of the giro or the tdf will be the hardest, because if the gc is still open it will be a massacre right from the beginning.

I sincerely hope for your prediction of the stages 20 to be true but honestly I expect nothing big to happen before Joux-Plane and Lombarde. Hope I will be wrong though.
Regarding the Giau stage, Landa has emphasized the absence of hard climbs in the Giro, though he has picked one or two stages in which to make the difference. Considering the (completely plausible) scenario that he will be behind Nibali in GC after the ITT, the way he excels at super hard mountain stages (Mortirolo, Cortals) and that Nibali doesn't have stellar records in suchlike stages, I think he might want to make the best out of it.
The making the best out of it part will be valid for the other climbers as well...which will be abundant in the Giro.
Anyway we'll see come the Giro.

Remind me who has the fastest Mortirolo ascent time: Nibali, or Landa? Yeah, Nibali, by a minute and a half. And while Landa might've had to work for Aru earlier, he won't ever have broken the 45 minute barrier, and that was the Nibali of 2010. 6 years on, he is a much stronger beast to contend with.

Also all of the 2014 Tour? Maybe not super hard stages but in every stage he crushed the opposition, easy MTFs or harder MTFs. And the 2013 Giro? Once again some stages called off but still won it breathing through his nose. His best performance this year came in the hardest mountain stage (IMO) on the hardest climb.

He may have struggled on the Gardeccia stage of 2011 but that was because he attacked off Passo Giau, and wasted a lot of energy. He still only finished 1:30 off Contador, who was insane that Giro.

You can say that Nibali isn't as good as Landa on climbs. I very much disagree, but respect your opinion. But saying that Nibali isn't good at hard mountain stages is just wrong, plain wrong.

Geez!
Your reply surely gets the nomination for "the least relevant reply in the forum" poll as nobody is saying Nibali isn't good in hard mountain stages (doesn't have stellar records =/= isn't good), nobody is saying Landa is better climber than Nibali (they have never raced each other) and your examples are a bit picky (you don't mention Zoncolan 2010, Finestre 2011,etc)
Anyway, to backup my statement and since numbers never lie, I will mention you the 2 hardest stages on paper that Nibali has raced and you can check his results:
1- Gardeccia 2011 (6000m altitude climbing, 50+ km of categorised climbs, 229km).
2- Tonale 2010 (~5000m altitude climbing, 60km of categorized climbs, 178km).

P.S: 1:37 min to Scarponi in 5km of Gardeccia really is not good.

Scarponi almost caught back up with Contador, though. Not to mention that Nibali wasted a bunch of energy in that stage. It was a solid performance, IMO

 

[dacooley]

i'm convinced bertie was a bit surprised about how weak the other guys were and simply was walking the last kms of that stage.

 

[Ataraxus]

After the Giau descent he was pulling alone only for another 10 minutes. Then he sat up waiting for the Contador-Scarponi group. I was rooting for his move to continue and maybe the stage would have unfolded a bit differently (i.e. Contador gapping Scarponi or Rujano and carrying on with Nibali till the base of Gardeccia ) but Nibali unfortunately didn't have it that day.
Anyway, the P.S. was for Brullnux to compare the Gardeccia performance to Scarponi which he was fighting for 2nd, not Contador. You can absolve any other rider's performance in that Giro when comparing to Contador.

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

After the Giau descent he was pulling alone only for another 10 minutes. Then he sat up waiting for the Contador-Scarponi group. I was rooting for his move to continue and maybe the stage would have unfolded a bit differently (i.e. Contador gapping Scarponi or Rujano and carrying on with Nibali till the base of Gardeccia ) but Nibali unfortunately didn't have it that day.
Anyway, the P.S. was for Brullnux to compare the Gardeccia performance to Scarponi which he was fighting for 2nd, not Contador. You can absolve any other rider's performance in that Giro when comparing to Contador.

I still stand by the fact that you implied heavily that Landa was better than Nibali on hard mountain stages, and that "less than stellar" is a nice+polite way of saying not very good, at least in my mind. Any attack on such a hard day after two other very hard days was going to take loads out of the legs, however small. You forget he was dropped on Fedaia and bridged back, so he was well and truly gone by Gardeccia, and 1:37 when you're completely gone is actually not too bad.

If you meant less than stellar as in good but not that good, then sorry I misunderstood it but "pointless reply award" was harsh, as was my "plain wrong" statement.

 

[Red Rick]

Yeah, he wasn't that good at super hard mountain stages.... 5 years ago. He also was a worses climber and gc rider in general back than. Nibali, in his worst GT performance since the Vuelta 2011 (or Tour 2012 arguably), won the queen stage of the Tour last year. Attacked from way out and still rode the finishing climb faster than anyone but Quintana and Froome

 

[Ataraxus]

Re: Re:

After the Giau descent he was pulling alone only for another 10 minutes. Then he sat up waiting for the Contador-Scarponi group. I was rooting for his move to continue and maybe the stage would have unfolded a bit differently (i.e. Contador gapping Scarponi or Rujano and carrying on with Nibali till the base of Gardeccia ) but Nibali unfortunately didn't have it that day.
Anyway, the P.S. was for Brullnux to compare the Gardeccia performance to Scarponi which he was fighting for 2nd, not Contador. You can absolve any other rider's performance in that Giro when comparing to Contador.

I still stand by the fact that you implied heavily that Landa was better than Nibali on hard mountain stages, and that "less than stellar" is a nice+polite way of saying not very good, at least in my mind. Any attack on such a hard day after two other very hard days was going to take loads out of the legs, however small. You forget he was dropped on Fedaia and bridged back, so he was well and truly gone by Gardeccia, and 1:37 when you're completely gone is actually not too bad.

If you meant less than stellar as in good but not that good, then sorry I misunderstood it but "pointless reply award" was harsh, as was my "plain wrong" statement.

Rest assured Brullnux, the implication and the polite way are not the case.
It's much simpler than that. If Landa wants to make the difference and win that Giro, he must play the cards in the stages like Corvara, S. Anna, Risoul etc. irrespective of what Nibali's cards in those stages are (they might be better)
We can describe the Gardeccia performance by whatever word you like except from the word "stellar". Cause it wasn't stellar
peace