Reactions from the peloton

[wannab]

Well, "very successful rider" is a bit of stretch. ... a time of which Jonathan Vaughters said CA was a (more or less) clean team

Good point, some act as if he won 7 tours ..

I'm highly skeptical as everything points against clean cycling during that time
but I do believe in being unguilty untill proven otherwise, some here are way to conclusive without any real facts.

To play avocate of the devil here:
- Was he really that successful? How many GC's has he won? How many MTF's in the Tour etc.?
- Which other implications are there against him, beside the fact he was at the recent Livestrong charity with Radioshack (you know, his team, started by LA).
- +-20y active in the Pro-Peloton, surely he must be doing something right, as every doper seem to fall sooner or later, this has not happened to Jens (yet )

So one can call it Believing in Unicorns or Father Christmas, I call it judging by evidence.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Pop quiz:

who has the better palmares at CA, given Vaughters has admitted to doping, albeit with leftover EPO from years before ?

Vaughters vs Voigt during their time together at CA is bordered by red:

At a quick glance, I say they are about even. High Hct exception Vaughters + EPO + god knows what else == clean Voigt.

 

[Lukenwolf]

And that proves exactly what?

A 3rd as opposed to a 27th in the Tour Med for instance is hardly marginal is it? Where were they in their season buildup respectively? When was either rider supposed to peak, if he was supposed to peak at all as opposed to staying on a certain fitness level for the season?

Is any of those result suspicious in the sense of unlikely to be achieved based on the riders physique or result history?

That picture of yours is polemic claptrap with hardly any information value It's just numbers that cannot be interpreted without the pertinent background information

 

[Frosty]

Arent most of those results from flat stages of the Tour? Not sure that someone's place in the peloton as they roll across the line proves anything at all.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

And that proves exactly what?

A 3rd as opposed to a 27th in the Tour Med for instance is hardly marginal is it? Where were they in their season buildup respectively? When was either rider supposed to peak, if he was supposed to peak at all as opposed to staying on a certain fitness level for the season?

Is any of those result suspicious in the sense of unlikely to be achieved based on the riders physique or result history?

That picture of yours is polemic claptrap with hardly any information value It's just numbers that cannot be interpreted without the pertinent background information

Yes yes polemic clap trap. As opposed to all the sound theories and rock solid research everyone else is doing in the thread. How despicable of me to ignore all those posts and post some actual results comparing the allegedly clean as a whistle rider with the known doper.

How many hail mary's should I say before bed tonight?

 

[Lukenwolf]

Yes yes polemic clap trap. As opposed to all the sound theories and rock solid research everyone else is doing in the thread. How despicable of me to ignore all those posts and post some actual results comparing the allegedly clean as a whistle rider with the known doper.

How many hail mary's should I say before bed tonight?

Well without the background infos needed the naked numbers are just as useless as all the rock solid research. That's my point. Everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it, but as long as there aren't any credible facts it remains speculation and should be seen as such.

If there'd been a 1st place for either rider in a mountain ITT up Mont Ventoux, I'd say "ok, not even the Hippo in the Zoo is gonna believe that one". You postulated that a doped Vaughters == clean Jens based on numbers with no background info. That's the worst reseach I've seen here lately.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Well without the background infos needed the naked numbers are just as useless as all the rock solid research. That's my point. Everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it, but as long as there aren't any credible facts it remains speculation and should be seen as such.

If there'd been a 1st place for either rider in a mountain ITT up Mont Ventoux, I'd say "ok, not even the Hippo in the Zoo is gonna believe that one". You postulated that a doped Vaughters == clean Jens based on numbers with no background info. That's the worst reseach I've seen here lately.

Think about it. High hct exception + doping Vaughters.

Shouldn't he be leaving Voigt in the dust?

And now - is the peloton fresh as a new nappy clean? Yet Voigt at 41 is still stomping it?

 

[Lukenwolf]

Think about it. High hct exception + doping Vaughters.

Shouldn't he be leaving Voigt in the dust?

Was Vaughters a team leader? Was he a domestique. He can be drugged to the gills - if he's given the same job like Jeans, for instance pulling turn at the pointy end of the pack - They're likely to finish close together, but JV would start next day 'fairly fresh', while a (let's assume clean) Voigt would probably bonk next day or would barely hang on with the pack. Has happened many a time. Voigt goes on one of his banzai attacks and next day he's completely spent and loses a lot of time. That's exactly the thing USPS tried to 'cure' with "the oil". No proof of him being clean, but just as good a theory as the one labeling him a doper because he rode in the late 90s.

And now - is the peloton fresh as a new nappy clean? Yet Voigt at 41 is still stomping it?

Surely not clean, but i would be inclined to believe it isn't as drug-infested as in Armstrongs hayday. And Voigt is hardly stomping it. He won one measly shortish stage this year in his prefered conditions (cold, rain). He attacked from a breakaway group that at some point stopped chasing him due to the attrocious conditions. Hardly a Landis or Rasmussen style banzai ride across the Alps. Why do you exaggerate it so much?
And the age is a lame argument. Jens almost always won due to his pain tolerance and his stamina. Stamina can be preserved longer than let's say quick power delivery.

 

[jono__]

Strongly worded editorial from Canadian cyclist and former Spidertech rider Will Routley:

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/...st+cheaters+they+criminals/7502237/story.html

 

[montel]

Will Routley's Comments

I found this article thanks to a link posted by Ben Jacques-Maynes...It is nice to see a Pro stating this so well.

Will Routley Article

I think the biggest joke in all of this is the idea that a rider is "clean" after they stop doping. There must be some huge long-term benefits gained from prior doping that last well beyond when a rider stops - they aren't "clean" they just aren't continuing to dope - They are still damaged goods.

 

[Sarcastic Wet Trout]

There must be some huge long-term benefits gained from prior doping that last well beyond when a rider stops -

There must be ... There must be ... There must be ...

Say it enough times and it must be true.

 

[cineteq]

Strongly worded editorial from Canadian cyclist and former Spidertech rider Will Routley:

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/...st+cheaters+they+criminals/7502237/story.html

Proud of him! But is this mean he doesn't have a job?

 

[pmcg76]

Proud of him! But is this mean he doesn't have a job?

Spidertech have pulled the plug I think so there is no team for next season

Anyhow, when Spidertech were in Europe they were based in Girona so that means they were doping as that is the primary reason for being based there. Ask sniper!!

 

[momotaro]

Good on Will. Spidertech and his previous Canadian team, Symmetrics, were over-achieving clean teams.

At this pro level, it is all about the lost opportunity: limited spots to go to World's or other major events limits exposure to pro teams and future contracts.

Tremendous respect for anyone who sticks with pro-cycling for 15 of the best years of their life, making almost no money. All the while knowing that dopers are taking away money and opportunity. Personally, I can't say I would have done the same (I would have quit). Will is an intellegent and likeable person: he could have made another successful career elsewhere.

These are the people who truely love the sport, and represent any hope for clean cycling. If Will Routley decides to retire from racing someone should look to hire him as a director/administrator/coach.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

These are the people who truely love the sport, and represent any hope for clean cycling. If Will Routley decides to retire from racing someone should look to hire him as a director/administrator/coach.

Garmin team manager.

 

[ElChingon]

Just verifying the post counter for this thread and to see if indeed its ends at post 977 as the thread lists additional posts by the presence of additional pages at the bottom. Here goes.

UPDATE:
Ok, its indeed the bottom but it still lists additional pages in the page selector at the bottom.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Just verifying the post counter for this thread and to see if indeed its ends at post 977 as the thread lists additional posts by the presence of additional pages at the bottom. Here goes.

UPDATE:
Ok, its indeed the bottom but it still lists additional pages in the page selector at the bottom.

I have been noticing the same.

Proof that:
1. developers are tooling around with the code
2. the deleted Kimmage thread could easily be resurrected

 

[shouldawouldacoulda]

Proud of him! But is this mean he doesn't have a job?

The SpiderTech riders all have new teams... maybe 1 or 2 are still getting things sorted out. The sponsor - SpiderTech - is paying all the riders 2013 salaries. This makes it attractive for the teams to take on these riders late in the season. A few guys have announced their teams already.

 

[shouldawouldacoulda]

Spidertech have pulled the plug I think so there is no team for next season

Anyhow, when Spidertech were in Europe they were based in Girona so that means they were doping as that is the primary reason for being based there. Ask sniper!!

But they weren't based in Girona. They were based in Kortrijk, Belgium - where Bauer lived when he was racing.

Some of the riders had apartments in Girona.

 

[pmcg76]

But they weren't based in Girona. They were based in Kortrijk, Belgium - where Bauer lived when he was racing.

Some of the riders had apartments in Girona.

I was joking about the Girona/doping thing, though I did know a few of their guys were based in Girona cos I met them out training a few times whilst there. Even got an 'hola' from them once.

 

[D-Queued]

Strongly worded editorial from Canadian cyclist and former Spidertech rider Will Routley:

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/...st+cheaters+they+criminals/7502237/story.html

Huge kudos for a strongly worded statement, and for calling "bullsh*t".

And, Will is right, there were notable battles between Symmetrics and Navigators. Yet, though at least one Navigator was banned for life and his results disqualified, there was no apology.

Fail, however, for perpetuating a lie:"There are more anti-doping controls in cycling than in any other sport"

Just as Lance is NOT the most tested athlete, Cycling is NOT the most tested sport.

"...the International Ice-Hockey Federation carried out 6,065 out-of-competition anti-doping tests in 2009. According to a Reuters report on Tuesday, cycling carried out slightly more than half that number of out-of-competition blood tests - 3,314 - in 2011 whilst the international tennis federation, according to its website, carried out just 21."

Fail also for this: "Me and many of my original teammates have never had to look over our shoulders"

Many. Notably not all. I can think of one or two that might owe some apologies to some folks.

If Will wants to come clean, he needs to come completely clean.

Dave.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

If Will wants to come clean, he needs to come completely clean.

Dave.

I think the USADA affidavits set the precedent that you only have to come clean enough to indict or convict the other person(s).

Whilst I agree with you, why someone in an interview would do any more than that is beyond me...

 

[D-Queued]

I think the USADA affidavits set the precedent that you only have to come clean enough to indict or convict the other person(s).

Whilst I agree with you, why someone in an interview would do any more than that is beyond me...

Fair point.

The sport is in a glass house. There is a lot of bad blood that goes beyond the doping, but the doping goes beyond the bad blood. If it is time to hand out apologies, the waiting line to receive them is down the street and around the block.

Personally, while I may be familiar with some of the races that Will is upset about, I consider myself inconsequential. I am just an anonymous forum contributor. However, if someone as inconsequential as me knows the dirt, there are literally hundreds of others that do as well.

There are no secrets.

Dave.

 

[will10]

I think the USADA affidavits set the precedent that you only have to come clean enough to indict or convict the other person(s).

Whilst I agree with you, why someone in an interview would do any more than that is beyond me...

Indeed, hence the number of guys that said I stopped in 06... ok.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Fair point.

The sport is in a glass house. There is a lot of bad blood that goes beyond the doping, but the doping goes beyond the bad blood. If it is time to hand out apologies, the waiting line to receive them is down the street and around the block.

Personally, while I may be familiar with some of the races that Will is upset about, I consider myself inconsequential. I am just an anonymous forum contributor. However, if someone as inconsequential as me knows the dirt, there are literally hundreds of others that do as well.

There are no secrets.

Dave.

It's curious too, isn't it, that Will doesn't go further? Omerta at work again?

Not many people say what everyone else is thinking - very rarely in my experience.

Let's say he did spill the beans, fully. Do you think the personal ramifications would outstrip the good it would do, given the limited scope of his experience and racing level?

What avenue does Will have to really come clean?