Rediscovering an admiration for C. Evans

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auscyclefan94 said:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Poor piti is suspended so the valverde fans kick evans! You sound like a broken record actually. In the heat of the moment it would of been easy to think the same thing with the gesink incident. He later apologised and riders showing some emotion is a good thing for the sport that can lack it. IThe Righi and Evans incident was BOTH of there faults EQUALLLY. Really you can't stop someone chasing.

I guess your just another hater....

(the forumites on here who hate me will be coming to get me after this):D
Your incessant whining is deafening and like your hero's inability to keep his fragile emotions in check, getting quite tired. What Valverde's suspension has to do with my post as far as in your estimation is beyond me. My opinion of Evans has been consistent before, during and after the Valverde drama. How a rider physically battling with another rider while wearing the WC's stripes is a good thing, all because the other rider decided to get on the front of the peloton and slow their roll, which is a part of the sport the apparently Evans is ignorant of, IS NOT GOOD FOR THE SPORT.

As has been explained over and over, it is within the rights of any team or rider whose interest it is for the break to succeed to get on the front and attempt to dictate the chasing peloton's pace. I'm quite certain that you realize this but because it was not in the interests of BMC and Evans for the pace to be slowed thus you choose to conjure up your own peloton rules.

Let's see headbutting another rider, physically assaulting another rider in a girlie manner--yep, that's definitely good for the sport. Keep up the good work Cadel.;)

Seriously though, Evans was quite impressive in the first half of the Giro where he represented the WC stripes well and showed that he was in fact the strongest rider BEFORE they reached the real climbing. Basso emerged as the worthy winner showing his superiority on the Zoncolan and every mountainous stage after that. Evans fought valiantly and should be commended for his effort. It was a hard, hard Giro with challenging terrain and difficult weather that took its toll on many of the riders and their teams.

It was an epic grand tour that Evans' efforts will play a large part in the retelling of its story in the coming years.

By the way, I for one don't hate anyone on this forum. Just because we have a difference of opinion don't take that as definite sign of dislike/hate. You contribute far more to this forum than I do with your initiating various threads and keeping the discussions going. I personally don't have the free time like I used to to post as often as I would like. Thus I often come in on threads late at night after the discussion has subsided and make my posts then, usually rapid fire one after another.

Try not to take all this so personal (although considering tone of my post at the beginning that might be a bit hard:eek: ).
 
bianchigirl said:
The bottom line is you only win a 3 week Tour if you're prepared to get off the wheel and do something - Evans made one attack of any meaning, on the penutlimate stage, when it was far too little too late - the rest of the race he was content to sit on anybody's wheel. I was prepared to reassess my feelings about Evans being the biggest wheelsucker in the game when he won the World's but this race did nothing to reinforce that.
By your standard, all were wheelsuckers. Sastre made 0 attacks during 3 weeks. Arroy made 0 attacks during 3 weeks. Nibali made 1 attack during 3 weeks. Vinokurov made 2 attacks. Basso, what 2(?) attacks? Scarponi 2(?) attacks?
 
getting tired of the broken record of "wheelsucker", especially in light of Basso basically doing exactly that to win... I don't recall him ever attacking, only just sitting behind others - either liquigas or other riders (evans & scarponi as an example even if that was tactically astute while they chased Nibbles)
zoncolan being the exception whereby he just rode a pace as the others just dropped off - it wasn't an attack, and those that supposedly wheelsucked really were just trying to stay with him.

do people see a difference between wheelsucking and just trying to stay with a group??
 
Sure. Wheelsucking is deliberately shirking your duties. See José Serpa throughout most of March and April for a clear example. You can miss occasional turns as part of a gambit as long as you do enough to not let the others get frustrated with you (see Efimkin in stage 8 of the 2009 Tour for letting the others get frustrated with you, and Luís León Sánchez in the same stage for a perfect example of bluffing, missing some turns but putting in enough of them to keep the other attackers happy). Wheelsucking is also expecting other people to do your work for you. Evans on Zoncolán and Monte Grappa were not wheelsucking because he was absolutely on his limit and the others were pressurising him. It's also not wheelsucking if you have a teammate up there; that's just common sense, or if there are tactical decisions at play. To whit, Armstrong sat on Wiggins' back wheel all the way up the Col de Romme, but wasn't wheelsucking because he had two teammates up the road, so had no obligation to share the workload. Leipheimer and Contador letting Mosquera do all the work before nipping out to take the win on Fuentes de Invierno in the 2008 Vuelta, though? That was blatant wheelsucking.

The problem for Evans is that he never has teammates up the road, so he will always be seen as a wheelsucker unless he a) is on the front, or b) is yo-yoing off the back. Sportzchick asked why Basso wasn't called a wheelsucker for sitting on Evans and Scarponi's wheel on the descent of Monte Grappa, but despite it being explained to her decided that Evans wouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps that's because Evans is seldom in such a position so it's difficult to compare.

Pretty much all riders suck wheels sometimes. Some are hugely attacking riders who do it from time to time, like Cunego, Valverde or Gilbert. Others are perceived as wheelsuckers, and find that reputation hard to shake off. Levi Leipheimer, for example, is a chronic wheelsucker. Far worse than Evans. But because Evans has the reputation of a wheelsucker, the fans and commentators notice when Evans is doing it. And because other teams have reason to fear Evans' TT, they get more worked up by it, which draws more attention to it.
 
If Evans is sitting on your wheel going up a mountain you just need to attack him more, it works every time. Slowly follow attack, slowly follow attack, slowly follow attack, try and follow attack, kaboom! Of course there are few riders in the world who can put the attacks in repeatedly at that point in a stage.

Evans may have followed wheels on the Grappa, Zoncolan and Mortirolo (wheel suck if you must) but every other race this season he's been anything but a passive rider. Of course because he is percieved to have a "reputation", any sign of following wheels will result in taunts of "wheelsucker" whereas others like Valverde will not get called out over one incident (LBL).
 
Jun 10, 2009
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Libertine Seguros said:
Sure. Wheelsucking is deliberately shirking your duties. See José Serpa throughout most of March and April for a clear example. You can miss occasional turns as part of a gambit as long as you do enough to not let the others get frustrated with you (see Efimkin in stage 8 of the 2009 Tour for letting the others get frustrated with you, and Luís León Sánchez in the same stage for a perfect example of bluffing, missing some turns but putting in enough of them to keep the other attackers happy). Wheelsucking is also expecting other people to do your work for you. Evans on Zoncolán and Monte Grappa were not wheelsucking because he was absolutely on his limit and the others were pressurising him. It's also not wheelsucking if you have a teammate up there; that's just common sense, or if there are tactical decisions at play. To whit, Armstrong sat on Wiggins' back wheel all the way up the Col de Romme, but wasn't wheelsucking because he had two teammates up the road, so had no obligation to share the workload. Leipheimer and Contador letting Mosquera do all the work before nipping out to take the win on Fuentes de Invierno in the 2008 Vuelta, though? That was blatant wheelsucking.

The problem for Evans is that he never has teammates up the road, so he will always be seen as a wheelsucker unless he a) is on the front, or b) is yo-yoing off the back. Sportzchick asked why Basso wasn't called a wheelsucker for sitting on Evans and Scarponi's wheel on the descent of Monte Grappa, but despite it being explained to her decided that Evans wouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps that's because Evans is seldom in such a position so it's difficult to compare.

Pretty much all riders suck wheels sometimes. Some are hugely attacking riders who do it from time to time, like Cunego, Valverde or Gilbert. Others are perceived as wheelsuckers, and find that reputation hard to shake off. Levi Leipheimer, for example, is a chronic wheelsucker. Far worse than Evans. But because Evans has the reputation of a wheelsucker, the fans and commentators notice when Evans is doing it. And because other teams have reason to fear Evans' TT, they get more worked up by it, which draws more attention to it.
Excellent post. If only some of the offending posters (both pro- and anti- Evans) would take it in...

I think there there is (or should be) a further distinction between "wheelsucking" in a non-GC breakaway situation (or one day race), and "wheelsucking" in a mountain stage in a select GC group. The first I would call gamesmanship, whereas the second is legitimate [if dull] strategy for riders like cuddles or bottle.

In Evans' case, he _is_ a wheelsucker in the latter setting, partly because he's often just not good enough to take turns, but also because there is usually no strategic advantage to him taking turns. The people he most needs to gain time over in a stage race are the great climbers, the other riders who have made the selection. He doesn't need to help them get more time over the rest of the field that couldn't make the selection; he's already beating those riders, and can hold his own against them in an ITT. And if he does help push the pace by taking turns, he knows he won't be the last to bonk. For the climbers in the selection however (your Bassos, Chickens, Sastres, Mayos), they need to put time into those that haven't made the selection on the climb at every opportunity, as traditionally they would lose bags of time in the ITTs.

Essentially the same tactics worked superbly for Big Mig, but have proven less successful in the modern era of TTers who can sorry could climb with the best (LA), or climbers who can TT with the best (like AC) (the tours have also changed, being much less TT-intensive than in the '90s when 60-70km ITTs were common, sometimes two in the one tour - there hasn't been even a single ITT over 60km in the TDF since 2001)

The new, more attacking cuddles that people are discovering an admiration for presents an interesting quandary. On the one had, I believe many (particularly his fanboys [fanchicks?]) look at his history of "nearly", and at his recent victories, and conflate the two as meaning "he's odds on favourite for the Giro". But IMO his good results this season have been partly because he was forced to go for broke in the spring to justify GT invites for the team. Had he been on a stronger team (i.e. one with other leaders for the spring classics), he wouldn't have peaked for the classics season and early part of the Giro but would have come into it more like Basso, a little underdone and ready to peak in week 3. And he probably would have placed higher in the GC... maybe second again by less than a minute instead of fifth (because on the steep pitches like Zoncolan he just doesn't have it, good day or bad).
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Ferminal said:
If Evans is sitting on your wheel going up a mountain you just need to attack him more, it works every time. Slowly follow attack, slowly follow attack, slowly follow attack, try and follow attack, kaboom! Of course there are few riders in the world who can put the attacks in repeatedly at that point in a stage.

Evans may have followed wheels on the Grappa, Zoncolan and Mortirolo (wheel suck if you must) but every other race this season he's been anything but a passive rider. Of course because he is percieved to have a "reputation", any sign of following wheels will result in taunts of "wheelsucker" whereas others like Valverde will not get called out over one incident (LBL).
Well on the grappa and zoncolan he could not quite take the pace and on the mortirolo he popped. He "wheelsucked" because he was not strong enough.

Angliru said:
Your incessant whining is deafening and like your hero's inability to keep his fragile emotions in check, getting quite tired. What Valverde's suspension has to do with my post as far as in your estimation is beyond me. My opinion of Evans has been consistent before, during and after the Valverde drama. How a rider physically battling with another rider while wearing the WC's stripes is a good thing, all because the other rider decided to get on the front of the peloton and slow their roll, which is a part of the sport the apparently Evans is ignorant of, IS NOT GOOD FOR THE SPORT.

As has been explained over and over, it is within the rights of any team or rider whose interest it is for the break to succeed to get on the front and attempt to dictate the chasing peloton's pace. I'm quite certain that you realize this but because it was not in the interests of BMC and Evans for the pace to be slowed thus you choose to conjure up your own peloton rules.

Let's see headbutting another rider, physically assaulting another rider in a girlie manner--yep, that's definitely good for the sport. Keep up the good work Cadel.;)

Seriously though, Evans was quite impressive in the first half of the Giro where he represented the WC stripes well and showed that he was in fact the strongest rider BEFORE they reached the real climbing. Basso emerged as the worthy winner showing his superiority on the Zoncolan and every mountainous stage after that. Evans fought valiantly and should be commended for his effort. It was a hard, hard Giro with challenging terrain and difficult weather that took its toll on many of the riders and their teams.

It was an epic grand tour that Evans' efforts will play a large part in the retelling of its story in the coming years.

By the way, I for one don't hate anyone on this forum. Just because we have a difference of opinion don't take that as definite sign of dislike/hate. You contribute far more to this forum than I do with your initiating various threads and keeping the discussions going. I personally don't have the free time like I used to to post as often as I would like. Thus I often come in on threads late at night after the discussion has subsided and make my posts then, usually rapid fire one after another.

Try not to take all this so personal (although considering tone of my post at the beginning that might be a bit hard:eek: ).
The valverde dig was a little cheap shot...:eek: Saying he physically assualted someone is a bit over the top. Everyone jumped on evans when it was Righi's fault also. Headbutting is not at first seen good for the sport but seeing how much some riders care about winning and gettinf to the line first and if they don't some like cadel do carried away. Though it is good for the thearte for the sport. I like seeing riders show some emotion that they care so much about winning and care so much about the sport. Don't hate you at all angliru!
 
Feb 18, 2010
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auscyclefan94 said:
Saying he physically assualted someone is a bit over the top. Everyone jumped on evans when it was Righi's fault also.
How is punching someone not a physical assault? And the Katusha guy who was well within his right to slow the peloton was not Righi, obviously, as Righi rides for Lampre.
 
May 28, 2010
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Though I do like Evans, cycling is unfortunately a team sport.

He's never going to win a major race (except for a one-day classic like Fleche-Wallon) unless he gets a better team.

With his status, I don't get why he chose BMC over the many stronger teams in need of a GC rider who would have taken him in a heartbeat
 
Feb 18, 2010
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royalpig180 said:
With his status, I don't get why he chose BMC over the many stronger teams in need of a GC rider who would have taken him in a heartbeat
Many teams? The only one I can think of is Garmin.
 
Jan 20, 2010
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Angliru said:
How a rider physically battling with another rider while wearing the WC's stripes is a good thing, all because the other rider decided to get on the front of the peloton and slow their roll, which is a part of the sport the apparently Evans is ignorant of, IS NOT GOOD FOR THE SPORT.
Isn't there an unwritten rule that you don't block the WC?

Otherwise totally agree with your post.

Aussiecyclefan, you actually make it hard for some fans on here to enjoy Cadels racing because of your incessant whining about him and how you perceive the world is against him. I’m sure some of what is said about Cadel here is just to bait you for the enjoyment of your reaction.

Just relax a bit and enjoy racing for what it is, some you win, some you don’t. Your favorite rider isn’t going to win all the time, and neither is mine. That’s racing.
 
Feb 18, 2010
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Night Rider said:
Isn't there an unwritten rule that you don't block the WC?
No, not really. As with all people in jerseys* or with a giant palmares he'd get more respect than a lowly domestique, to put things bluntly, but not so much that he gets to do as he pleases all the time even if that goes against the tactical plans of another team.
As with all unwritten rules (even the non-existent ones) there's room for debate though. One of the Rabo twitter folk (Ten Dam, I think) said something like "the world champion deserves more respect than he got today". I'm fairly sure he'd be doing the exact same thing if Rabo were in Katusha's spot though.


*nationals not included
 
May 26, 2009
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tgsgirl said:
How is punching someone not a physical assault? And the Katusha guy who was well within his right to slow the peloton was not Righi, obviously, as Righi rides for Lampre.
'physical assault' - come on, you see pushing and shoving like that at almost any local crit. And let's not forget that if it was Jens Voigt seeing his race about to be lost by riders blocking him and he punched his way through to chase, he'd be considered a legend :p
 
yourwelcome said:
'physical assault' - come on, you see pushing and shoving like that at almost any local crit. And let's not forget that if it was Jens Voigt seeing his race about to be lost by riders blocking him and he punched his way through to chase, he'd be considered a legend :p
Just because you see it elsewhere doesn't make it alright.

Just look at how Graeme Brown is perceived.
 
royalpig180 said:
Though I do like Evans, cycling is unfortunately a team sport.

He's never going to win a major race (except for a one-day classic like Fleche-Wallon) unless he gets a better team.

With his status, I don't get why he chose BMC over the many stronger teams in need of a GC rider who would have taken him in a heartbeat
What Status you talking about, the deal with BMC was done after the TDF disaster and the Vuelta fiasco and well before the WC.

I find it hard to belive his management wouldnt have spoken to several teams. In the end BMC has been far better than staying at Lotto.


Hugh
 
May 28, 2010
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hughmoore said:
What Status you talking about, the deal with BMC was done after the TDF disaster and the Vuelta fiasco and well before the WC.
Alright, so he certainly could have done better at the Vuelta, but 3rd place at a GT is hardly a "Fiasco" no matter what the circumstances.

And yeah, the TdF was definetely a disaster for him.
But still, choosing to go to BMC meant risking even being able to enter the GT's (though that has since worked out for him). And he was stuck with a weak team. At least at Omega Pharma he had guaranteed entry to the GTs
 
royalpig180 said:
Alright, so he certainly could have done better at the Vuelta, but 3rd place at a GT is hardly a "Fiasco" no matter what the circumstances.

And yeah, the TdF was definetely a disaster for him.
But still, choosing to go to BMC meant risking even being able to enter the GT's (though that has since worked out for him). And he was stuck with a weak team. At least at Omega Pharma he had guaranteed entry to the GTs
He got an invite to the Giro and the Tour and if he wanted to rider the Vuelta, could get one too. Obviously everyone involved was confident of getting an invite.

The pre-existing agreement between the GT organisers and the 17 or so teams expires at the end of the year so BMC's position in the major events is even more secure, looking ahead.
 
May 26, 2009
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royalpig180 said:
At least at Omega Pharma he had guaranteed entry to the GTs
That's true.

But let's not forget that after a few bad days in last year's Tour, Lotto's management was quick to start talking to the press about demoting Evans and making him be a domestique for VdB. I'd put money on those comments having been the moment he decided he was going to leave Lotto no matter what.

The BMC team seems to be a great deal more supportive, rain or shine. Regardless of the fact that his Giro team still wasn't really keeping up with him, for Evans himself there is probably no doubt that he made a good move.
 
Apr 16, 2009
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tgsgirl said:
How is punching someone not a physical assault? And the Katusha guy who was well within his right to slow the peloton was not Righi, obviously, as Righi rides for Lampre.
He wasn't just slowing the peleton. The little pr*ick swerved across to the left to deliberately block Evans' passing him. Evans should have punched the little a-hole a lot harder.
 
tgsgirl said:
How is punching someone not a physical assault? And the Katusha guy who was well within his right to slow the peloton was not Righi, obviously, as Righi rides for Lampre.
Well, generally speaking when the fists start flying in a race, both riders will get called on it. It's a heat of the moment, stupid thing to do ... in general. However, blocking has everything to do with not speeding up, not contributing to a chase ... basically causing some level of disruption. It is quite frowned upon (well, at least once you move up past Cat 4) to swerve or slam on your brakes ... it puts others at risk and is bascially lame. Folks that do this can usually expect to receive something "in kind", be it a verbal comment or 10, a push, a punch, etc.
 

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