Reform: It's time to liven up the Grand Tours

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Why not have a Paris-Roubaix stage (or even a Roubaix-Paris stage) on the final weekend? Every time they put a cobbled stage in TdF it's always before the mountains - I don't see any reason why it can't be after, especially as they are prepared to do massive transfers before the final Sunday.

Because sprinters historically do well on cobbles, and all the sprinters are gone in the last week. Same reason most of the sprinting stages are in the first week. Also because they hope that people that lost time on the cobbles will attack in the mountains.

Too much luck needed on cobbles as well. It would leave a bit of a sour taste in the mouth if a rider dominated the mountains for two weeks, then lost the GC because he got a mechanical or caught up in a crash on cobbles, through not fault of his own.

Roubaix type cobbles should be used very sparingly in three week stage races imo.

 

[zigzag wanderer]

Re: Re:

Why not have a Paris-Roubaix stage (or even a Roubaix-Paris stage) on the final weekend? Every time they put a cobbled stage in TdF it's always before the mountains - I don't see any reason why it can't be after, especially as they are prepared to do massive transfers before the final Sunday.

Because sprinters historically do well on cobbles, and all the sprinters are gone in the last week. Same reason most of the sprinting stages are in the first week. Also because they hope that people that lost time on the cobbles will attack in the mountains.

Too much luck needed on cobbles as well. It would leave a bit of a sour taste in the mouth if a rider dominated the mountains for two weeks, then lost the GC because he got a mechanical or caught up in a crash on cobbles, through not fault of his own.

Roubaix type cobbles should be used very sparingly in three week stage races imo.

I might be alone in thinking this, but the best rider can lose a GT on cobbles on stage 6, so why not on stage 20?

Surely it provides an incentive to keep attacking, rather than just covering the moves?

Carapaz knew on the Passo Menghen stage that he didn't need to gain time, because he could predict his losses on the final ITT. Would he have felt comfortable holding 1:54 with a cobbled stage (or echelons etc) stage still to come?

GT winners should be able to deal with any type of stage, any time. I just don't agree with the idea that he was the best in the mountains, so it's not fair if he loses time on the flat.

 

[Tonton]

No amount of classic domestiques is going to help guys like Bernal, Gaudu etc in such a way that they magically become able to follow the best guys on such a stage.

Then you don't win the bike race. Period. What's wrong with that? If you can't win the Tour, you can't win the Tour...see '14 and the best rider won: Nibali. He navigated through treacherous waters, stayed on his bike, he deserved it.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

No amount of classic domestiques is going to help guys like Bernal, Gaudu etc in such a way that they magically become able to follow the best guys on such a stage.

Then you don't win the bike race. Period. What's wrong with that? If you can't win the Tour, you can't win the Tour...see '14 and the best rider won: Nibali. He navigated through treacherous waters, stayed on his bike, he deserved it.

If you read through my previous comments, i'm very much in favor of not tailoring the course to any specific rider or type of rider, of not pampering the riders in order to keep the race as closed as possible. So in essence, i agree with you. I just don't think you should go to such extremes. Paris-Roubaix is hard enough as a one day race. Riders, classics specialists even, have to recuperate for days. To just drop a similar course of equal length in a 3 week tour, is just a bit too much. I'd rather see 3 classic style races of 220k spread over the three weeks, than one 270k Paris Roubaix. I'd also rather have something like the other classics instead of Paris Roubaix, just to avoid injuries.

 

[spalco]

I suppose as a principle a 3-week bike race should be a representation of a country's terrain, nature and infrastracture (within reason). Mountain passes, hills, ocean roads, flat-ish country-side roads are certainly a part of France. Cobbled roads - eh, that's more of a gimmick imo. Every couple of year or so is fine, but not as a common difficulty like TTs and MTFs.

 

[hayneplane]

I know it could never happen in reality but I would love to see a mountain time trial up Alpe D’Huez on the opening day or at least opening weekend of the Tour.

Agree with the idea of a cobbled stage in between the mountain blocs as the GC is more settled and there are less riders left in the race so it becomes a bit less frantic and crash prone. Also if the rouleur oriented GC guys are behind they will have to really attack the cobbles.

Crosswind stages are always fun with the increasing speed and nerves in the bunch as they approach change in weather then the vicious turn in an instant as the race situation evolves literally second by second. Shorter stages could encourage more aggressive echelon riding and greater reward for the teams and riders with the strength and skill to exploit the conditions. Too often it blows to pieces then comes back together because it’s not worth working your team into the ground to hold a 1 minute gap for another 80kms.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re:

Why not have a Paris-Roubaix stage (or even a Roubaix-Paris stage) on the final weekend? Every time they put a cobbled stage in TdF it's always before the mountains - I don't see any reason why it can't be after, especially as they are prepared to do massive transfers before the final Sunday.

Yeah, it's not like the Paris-Roubaix area is very far away from Paris.

 

[Pantani_lives]

Based on the forum's suggestions here's the design for next year's Tour:

*Stage 1: Time trial on l'Alpe d'Huez at nighttime.
*Stage 2: Finish on murito
*Stage 3a, 3b and 3c: three short stages on one day - flat, TTT & murito 5 km before finish.
*Stage 4: 100 km with 10 sprints for time bonus of 30 seconds.
*Stage 5: Transitional stage, somewhat hilly.
*Stage 6: Tough Vosges stage with many climbs but no MTF.
*Stage 7: Flat.
*Stage 8: 60 km flat ITT
*Stage 9: WC-style local circuit of 15 laps with a short, steep climb.
*Stage 10: Tough Jura stage with many climbs but no MTF.
*Stage 11: Alps: 120 km, finish on Madeleine
*Stage 12: Alps: 260 km, Iséran, finish on Sestrière.
*Stage 13: Alps: 320 km, finish after desent of Galibier.
*Stage 14: On biathlon venue, with the riders shooting at five targets before the final climb.
*Stage 15: Tough stage in Massif Central with many climbs but no MTF.
*Stage 16: 100km flat stage with substitutions allowed.
*Stage 17: Pyrenees: 180km, finish on Arnosteguy.
*Stage 18: Pyrenees: 320 km, finish after descent Aubisque
*Stage 19: 250 km flat on windy roads along the Atlantic Ocean.
*Stage 20: Flat ITT 25 km.
*Stage 21: Roubaix-Paris; the cobbled classic in reverse direction.

 

[spalco]

Haha, I love it. Include mercyless DQ for out-of-time-limit and there'll be under 50 finishers.

edit: but make one of the TTs 100K.
edit: or include a 10-15K downhill TT. Or maybe just stage 1a up Alpe, stage 1b down to weed out the weak right from the start :lol:

 

[RedheadDane]

*Stage 21: Roubaix-Paris; the cobbled classic in reverse direction.

The riders actually riding backwards! (They might need to do some tweaking with their bikes for that to be possible…)
Guess it's a good thing we're not actually in charge of organising GTs.

 

[Pantani_lives]

Re:

*Stage 21: Roubaix-Paris; the cobbled classic in reverse direction.

The riders actually riding backwards! (They might need to do some tweaking with their bikes for that to be possible…)
Guess it's a good thing we're not actually in charge of organising GTs.

A stage on 19th century velocipedes is also an option.

 

[spalco]

No that's a stupid gimmick, the Tour was never raced on penny-farthings.

But make them ride up Galibier on original 1911 fixed gear bikes! And if they have a mechanical they have to fix it themselves.

edited to add: time bonuses for most stylish moustaches.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

*Stage 21: Roubaix-Paris; the cobbled classic in reverse direction.

The riders actually riding backwards! (They might need to do some tweaking with their bikes for that to be possible…)
Guess it's a good thing we're not actually in charge of organising GTs.

A stage on 19th century velocipedes is also an option.

I just read that as 19th century centipedes…

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

Based on the forum's suggestions here's the design for next year's Tour:

*Stage 1: Time trial on l'Alpe d'Huez at nighttime.
*Stage 2: Finish on murito
*Stage 3a, 3b and 3c: three short stages on one day - flat, TTT & murito 5 km before finish.
*Stage 4: 100 km with 10 sprints for time bonus of 30 seconds.
*Stage 5: Transitional stage, somewhat hilly.
*Stage 6: Tough Vosges stage with many climbs but no MTF.
*Stage 7: Flat.
*Stage 8: 60 km flat ITT
*Stage 9: WC-style local circuit of 15 laps with a short, steep climb.
*Stage 10: Tough Jura stage with many climbs but no MTF.
*Stage 11: Alps: 120 km, finish on Madeleine
*Stage 12: Alps: 260 km, Iséran, finish on Sestrière.
*Stage 13: Alps: 320 km, finish after desent of Galibier.
*Stage 14: On biathlon venue, with the riders shooting at five targets before the final climb.
*Stage 15: Tough stage in Massif Central with many climbs but no MTF.
*Stage 16: 100km flat stage with substitutions allowed.
*Stage 17: Pyrenees: 180km, finish on Arnosteguy.
*Stage 18: Pyrenees: 320 km, finish after descent Aubisque
*Stage 19: 250 km flat on windy roads along the Atlantic Ocean.
*Stage 20: Flat ITT 25 km.
*Stage 21: Roubaix-Paris; the cobbled classic in reverse direction.

Sounds like a reasonable Tour to me, but stage 20 seems a bit over the top.

 

[klintE]

Re:

*Stage 21: Roubaix-Paris; the cobbled classic in reverse direction.

The riders actually riding backwards!

I would prefer see 300km of flatness with last 2 km uphill run with bag of coal on backs.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

*Stage 21: Roubaix-Paris; the cobbled classic in reverse direction.

The riders actually riding backwards!

I would prefer see 300km of flatness with last 2 km uphill run with bag of coal on backs.

Aah the good old days......

 

[Koronin]

I like the idea of a TT up Alpe d'Huez. If nothing else it would be different.

I agree with RedHeadDane, ride the Paris-Roubaix stage on stage 21 from Roubaix to Paris.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

I like the idea of a TT up Alpe d'Huez. If nothing else it would be different.

I agree with RedHeadDane, ride the Paris-Roubaix stage on stage 21 from Roubaix to Paris.

Alpe TT happened before, in the Armstrong era. I remember he complained about some spectators spitting on him..........

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re: Re:

I like the idea of a TT up Alpe d'Huez. If nothing else it would be different.

I agree with RedHeadDane, ride the Paris-Roubaix stage on stage 21 from Roubaix to Paris.

Alpe TT happened before, in the Armstrong era. I remember he complained about some spectators spitting on him..........

He probably spat first! :lol:

 

[RedheadDane]

Re:

I agree with RedHeadDane, ride the Paris-Roubaix stage on stage 21 from Roubaix to Paris.

No, no. Having the Paris-Roubaix (or rather Roubaix-Paris) stage on stage 21 is all Pantani_lives' idea. I'm totally fine with stage 21 being a parade, and the riders are probably going to ride it as a parade anyway, so it would be a waste of good cobbles.
I'm thinking more stage 20. Sometimes the final show-down is a mountain stage, sometimes it's an individual time trial (I think it has also on occasion been an individual mountain time trial), why not have the final show-down be a cobbled stage?

 

[spalco]

So make it Roubaix-Paris TT then.

 

[rick james]

Re:

Based on the forum's suggestions here's the design for next year's Tour:

*Stage 1: Time trial on l'Alpe d'Huez at nighttime.
*Stage 2: Finish on murito
*Stage 3a, 3b and 3c: three short stages on one day - flat, TTT & murito 5 km before finish.
*Stage 4: 100 km with 10 sprints for time bonus of 30 seconds.
*Stage 5: Transitional stage, somewhat hilly.
*Stage 6: Tough Vosges stage with many climbs but no MTF.
*Stage 7: Flat.
*Stage 8: 60 km flat ITT
*Stage 9: WC-style local circuit of 15 laps with a short, steep climb.
*Stage 10: Tough Jura stage with many climbs but no MTF.
*Stage 11: Alps: 120 km, finish on Madeleine
*Stage 12: Alps: 260 km, Iséran, finish on Sestrière.
*Stage 13: Alps: 320 km, finish after desent of Galibier.
*Stage 14: On biathlon venue, with the riders shooting at five targets before the final climb.
*Stage 15: Tough stage in Massif Central with many climbs but no MTF.
*Stage 16: 100km flat stage with substitutions allowed.
*Stage 17: Pyrenees: 180km, finish on Arnosteguy.
*Stage 18: Pyrenees: 320 km, finish after descent Aubisque
*Stage 19: 250 km flat on windy roads along the Atlantic Ocean.
*Stage 20: Flat ITT 25 km.
*Stage 21: Roubaix-Paris; the cobbled classic in reverse direction.

I'm sure a certain mod would still moan :lol:

 

[Googolplex]

Re:

So make it Roubaix-Paris TT then.

I would be happy enough with Arenberg prologue. Normal stages have crash problem and long TT's overtaking problem, but a prologue would be fun.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re:

So make it Roubaix-Paris TT then.

Or... not for the end of the race, but the beginning;
A prologue over Mons-en-Pévèle. (With a few Ks before the beginning of the sector).

 

[hayneplane]

Re: Re:

So make it Roubaix-Paris TT then.

I would be happy enough with Arenberg prologue. Normal stages have crash problem and long TT's overtaking problem, but a prologue would be fun.

Really liking this idea. Another great possibility would be a roughly 15km ITT taking on the Kwaremont-Paterberg combo and finishing at the top of the long draggy uphill where the team helpers stand to hand out bottles during the Ronde Van Vlaanderen.