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Retroactive testing . The risks?

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Jul 6, 2010
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flicker said:
To me it goes back to what LeMond said about the Giro period. He was worn out and had what was it anIV or B vitiman iron injection, it brought him back to life. Since you have been a pro you probably know better than I. My info is from talking to pros ex pros things I have read etc. Are IVs completly banned from cycling now?

I'm under the impression that all IV use was banned as of 2005, but I may be mistaken. One of the brainiacs here will enlighten us, I'm sure.

I had to have a couple of bags of saline after getting dysentry while racing in South America, and I certainly didn't think of that as cheating. Anything to help with the voluminous ammount of p*ss coming out of my *ss... Mind you, back then, it was certainly not in the doping protocol...

I can almost see your point... IV doesn't = doping.

But, since there has been such a problem with auto/homo/other blood doping, and since it is banned (as per my understanding) - that's part of the 'other' rules for sport. No IVs.

That being said, and all involved knowing the rules, I really think they should get the plastic test fired up.

So no one can get IVs? Fair enough. There's your level playing field. Suck it up, Buttercup! You're getting paid to race, follow the rules.
 

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JMBeaushrimp said:
I'm under the impression that all IV use was banned as of 2005, but I may be mistaken. One of the brainiacs here will enlighten us, I'm sure.

I had to have a couple of bags of saline after getting dysentry while racing in South America, and I certainly didn't think of that as cheating. Anything to help with the voluminous ammount of p*ss coming out of my *ss... Mind you, back then, it was certainly not in the doping protocol...

I can almost see your point... IV doesn't = doping.

But, since there has been such a problem with auto/homo/other blood doping, and since it is banned (as per my understanding) - that's part of the 'other' rules for sport. No IVs.

That being said, and all involved knowing the rules, I really think they should get the plastic test fired up.

So no one can get IVs? Fair enough. There's your level playing field. Suck it up, Buttercup! You're getting paid to race, follow the rules.
I just ausumed that in a race like the tour riders would get IV drip to fight the dehydration. I do not understand how they are able to rehydrate day after day. I do not consider that doping but still it must be banned by now. Unfortunatly you know there has to be a way uninvented that they will be able to get around the plasterizer test.
 

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The THREAT of Retroactive Testing is an effective deterrent for sure.
And the "leak" that there is a now a new 'Plastics Test" works as a deterrent also.

But going back through 2006 and retesting samples? I do not see that happening. I doubt any riders from 2010 will even be formally charged.

C'mon, we all know blood transfusions were taking place 2006-2010. But what would be the purpose of showing that all of Alberto's GT wins were tainted, for example. You can not change the past. It is time to move on to a cleaner future.

Speaking of a cleaner future, here are some odds for the 2011 TdF.
Can't wait!!

Andy Schleck 1.83 @
Franck Schleck 13.00 @
Vicenzo Nibali 13.00 @
Denis Menchov 13.00 @
Cadel Evans 17.00 @
Ivan Basso 17.00 @
Riccardo Ricco 21.00 @
Samuel Sanchez Gonzalez 21.00 @
Robert Gesink 34.00 @
Janez Brajkovic 34.00 @
and more!
http://www.betbrain.com/odds/cycling/france/
 
JMBeaushrimp said:
Interesting input from your American buddy. I managed to race internationally for a decade with no injections and never got mono. Mind you I was never spooked by having to provide a random sample, and obviously never tested positive.

DEHP won't show up from injections, anyway. Only the bagged goods, and they're on the list.

So, based on the prophilactic 'neccesity' of getting an IV and few shots every month (according to you and your source), the UCI et al should scrub this test even if proves riders are cheating?

Riding "internationally" can mean 101 things, it might be helpful if you could elaborate on your work load. If you rode 10 years without a single Vit B shot or the like, you are in a tiny minority. Saline drips are also often necessary when competing with illness or in extreme heat.
Do you want to ban riders who have used these methods in the past also?

Edit - just read your post saying that you had to use an IV trip during a race.
Lets assume that you were retroactively tested for that race and plasticizers show up in your sample. Now we all know you are a good boy, but a leaked report now casts doubt on your whole career. see how that works?
It brings us back to Darryl's original point of having to draw a line somewhere when it comes to re-testing of samples.
 
May 20, 2010
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Retroactive testing may prove the oft heard statement, "Everyone does it".
Cycling would lose massive amounts of money from sponsors who don't want to be associated with doping. It would then become just another farce like pro wrestling.
 
Jun 12, 2010
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The plastisiser test will if it`s brought in only be usefull for retroactive tests and wont effect the use of iv`s. Other types of container will be used.
Its a no brainer re the future as of the announcement that Contadors sample tested "possitive " for it.
Effectivly a minor irritant. If it was applied retrospectivly however to all samples in storage I reckon they`d be 50+ of of the pro tour riders under suspension.
Even the most fanatical anti doper doesnt seriously want that do they?.

Im sure others will disagree but in my view proof of Iv is not proof of PED use, merely the use if IV`s. Therefore theres room to negotiate with a large number of plastisiser possitives along the lines of an amnesty to all that give up the information that could end the presures to dope.
I`ve always believed that if they targeted the DS`s theyd be more succesfull..end that cartell and theyd be a ray of hope.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Darryl Webster said:
Sorry about the gramer etc peeps..It was very late...I am mild dislexic and realy, a forum isnt somewhere I think peeps need be overly concerned about such matters...but theres always gonna be one or two who think theyve scored a point by pointing these things out..:rolleyes:

Kinda reminds me of that saying , " Those who can do, those who cant teach":D

Keep it up Darryl, those who find grammar mistakes can shove them up their ...
 

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Darryl Webster said:
The plastisiser test will if it`s brought in only be usefull for retroactive tests and wont effect the use of iv`s. Other types of container will be used.
Its a no brainer re the future as of the announcement that Contadors sample tested "possitive " for it.
Effectivly a minor irritant. If it was applied retrospectivly however to all samples in storage I reckon they`d be 50+ of of the pro tour riders under suspension.
Even the most fanatical anti doper doesnt seriously want that do they?.

Im sure others will disagree but in my view proof of Iv is not proof of PED use, merely the use if IV`s. Therefore theres room to negotiate with a large number of plastisiser possitives along the lines of an amnesty to all that give up the information that could end the presures to dope.
I`ve always believed that if they targeted the DS`s theyd be more succesfull..end that cartell and theyd be a ray of hope.
I know that you have been a pro Darryl. You do not understand that not everyone is a rat. When you speak of DS who do you speak about in particular. Are you speaking about a DS who advocates full on charging? You were a pro right. You understand that the DS has a work obligation with his boss to win. The riders have an obligation to their sponsors and managers to win right.

Fundemantally you want to change the sport. I guess you could put jerseys on donkeys and have them plod around.
 
flicker said:
I know that you have been a pro Darryl. You do not understand that not everyone is a rat. When you speak of DS who do you speak about in particular. Are you speaking about a DS who advocates full on charging? You were a pro right. You understand that the DS has a work obligation with his boss to win. The riders have an obligation to their sponsors and managers to win right.

Fundemantally you want to change the sport. I guess you could put jerseys on donkeys and have them plod around.

This post is nonsense.
Everyone who has a career has an obligation to their responsibilities, whether they ride a bike or work on wall street. Those obligations have to be performed within the framework of the law, sporting or otherwise.

Anybody who does otherwise must be punished within the framework of the laws that govern their profession.

How is that fundementally changing the sport?
 
Jul 6, 2010
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andy1234 said:
Riding "internationally" can mean 101 things, it might be helpful if you could elaborate on your work load. If you rode 10 years without a single Vit B shot or the like, you are in a tiny minority. Saline drips are also often necessary when competing with illness or in extreme heat.
Do you want to ban riders who have used these methods in the past also?

Edit - just read your post saying that you had to use an IV trip during a race.
Lets assume that you were retroactively tested for that race and plasticizers show up in your sample. Now we all know you are a good boy, but a leaked report now casts doubt on your whole career. see how that works?
It brings us back to Darryl's original point of having to draw a line somewhere when it comes to re-testing of samples.

I'm not talking about dragging samples out of the stone-age. I'm talking about retro-testing samples within the last few years- the point from where it was determined that we needed to eliminate all bag-drips due to the difficulty determining what the hell the riders were doing.

How's that for a line in the sand? It's open season on all samples from when the UCI determined IV is no longer allowed.

Sounds fair to me. Those were the rules, and chances are the majority of positives wouldn't be from a saline drip...

Hey! Where's Flicker? I was working on a whole bunch of new crayon jokes...
 
JMBeaushrimp said:
I'm not talking about dragging samples out of the stone-age. I'm talking about retro-testing samples within the last few years- the point from where it was determined that we needed to eliminate all bag-drips due to the difficulty determining what the hell the riders were doing.

How's that for a line in the sand? It's open season on all samples from when the UCI determined IV is no longer allowed.

Sounds fair to me. Those were the rules, and chances are the majority of positives wouldn't be from a saline drip...

Hey! Where's Flicker? I was working on a whole bunch of new crayon jokes...

Seems like a fair and reasonable plan, but you can see where I am coming from, right?

For what its worth, when Chris Boardman was competing, he requested that the UCI store his doping samples for retrospective testing at any time in the future. I believe some of his hour record samples were stored, but Im not sure about any others.
I wonder how many riders of that era would have asked for the same:rolleyes:
 
Jul 6, 2010
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andy1234 said:
Seems like a fair and reasonable plan, but you can see where I am coming from, right?

For what its worth, when Chris Boardman was competing, he requested that the UCI store his doping samples for retrospective testing at any time in the future. I believe some of his hour record samples were stored, but Im not sure about any others.
I wonder how many riders of that era would have asked for the same:rolleyes:

I can absolutely see where you're coming from.

I think the issue has gotten so big that something verging on the *** has to happen.

How about this - the UCI states that all current testing will be enacted on all samples from the 2011 season onwards. Explicitly state the finer points of the doping protocols, and let 'er rip. All positives are banned, and there you go.

I know there's a lot of debate DSs and Mgrs being held complicit, but that can't really happen as they don't have to **** in a cup. If the riders are so sh*t scared that they can't do anything illegal, then the dirty DSs are going to end up with a clean pool to draw from. If they can't be famous doing that, then they're going to have to count upon their paltry tactical skills and abilities to fill out forms to stroke their frustrated egos.

If riders are consistently busted, these chokers lose their jobs...
 

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JMBeaushrimp said:
Why would it have to be targeted towards certain riders?

If IV use is banned, it's banned. Everyone is in full awareness of what the rules are. If retro-testing ends up culling the majority of riders, so be it. How's that for a drastic measure.

These pole-smokers are getting paid a tonne to race their bikes, with that fat cheque comes responsibility. Follow the rules or get a foot in yer *ss!

This could be the first test to actually be inclusive enough to clean up the sport. Providing those in charge have the b*lls to stick to the rules and sanction the cheaters.

Retroactive testing really could do something to clean up the sport. It's up the heads of the governing bodies now...
So what you are saying is kill the sport so it can re-invent itself. I do not think cycling could come back from it.You would turn away the fans and the sponsors would drop out. Many double tube 3 speed chinese commuter bikes on the horizon.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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flicker said:
So what you are saying is kill the sport so it can re-invent itself. .

Yup. As they say in Texas, "This b*tch is in need of some killin".

It's wrong as it is, and no one with any power wants to change it. Burn it to the ground.
 

flicker

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JMBeaushrimp said:
Yup. As they say in Texas, "This b*tch is in need of some killin".

It's wrong as it is, and no one with any power wants to change it. Burn it to the ground.

Well with a name like yours I can tell you come from the SE. No offense but after the north quashed the south in the civil war, carpetbagers came in and took the land of the southern farmers. See the movie the Outlaw Josey Wales.Clint Eastwood. You can say burn it down but the Southeast portion of our country was booming before the Civil War.
 
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Darryl Webster said:
The plastisiser test will if it`s brought in only be usefull for retroactive tests and wont effect the use of iv`s. Other types of container will be used.

What sort of containers? It is pretty difficult to store blood in a completely airtight, bacteria free enviroment outside of the bags that are currently used.

If they start trying to use glass jars etc we will just see a spate of riders going down with blood infections.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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flicker said:
Well with a name like yours I can tell you come from the SE. No offense but after the north quashed the south in the civil war, carpetbagers came in and took the land of the southern farmers. See the movie the Outlaw Josey Wales.Clint Eastwood. You can say burn it down but the Southeast portion of our country was booming before the Civil War.

Huh?

You wanna talk Clint Eastwood? How 'bout 'Liver-eatin Johnson'? Now there's a man after my own heart! Killing those who topped his wife and child, running them down in an almost blind rage, gutting them and eating their livers! YEEEHAW!

I can only think your quasi-historically based rant is due some sort of adverse reaction to the vast numbers of crayons you've crammed up your nose. Or maybe you've finally shoved them a bit too far and actually poked your brain.
 

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TeamSkyFans said:
What sort of containers? It is pretty difficult to store blood in a completely airtight, bacteria free enviroment outside of the bags that are currently used.

If they start trying to use glass jars etc we will just see a spate of riders going down with blood infections.

I see vast oportunities in boda bag sales.
 

flicker

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JMBeaushrimp said:
Huh?

You wanna talk Clint Eastwood? How 'bout 'Liver-eatin Johnson'? Now there's a man after my own heart! Killing those who topped his wife and child, running them down in an almost blind rage, gutting them and eating their livers! YEEEHAW!

I can only think your quasi-historically based rant is due some sort of adverse reaction to the vast numbers of crayons you've crammed up your nose. Or maybe you've finally shoved them a bit too far and actually poked your brain.
Please don't jerk my chain friend. I am part native American and my relatives walked the trail of tears. Look that up on wiki!
 
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flicker said:
I see vast oportunities in boda bag sales.

you need this book

515VY5Z7E3L._SS500_.jpg
 
Jul 6, 2010
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flicker said:
Please don't jerk my chain friend. I am part native American and my relatives walked the trail of tears. Look that up on wiki!

Get this, chumpy. I'm part Native American, too. Tribal warfare's part of the history. I didn't mention that 'Liver-eatin Johnson''s wife and child were Native, but good on yer history.

I don't need to look at wiki for history, and pity those that do...
 

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JMBeaushrimp said:
Get this, chumpy. I'm part Native American, too. Tribal warfare's part of the history. I didn't mention that 'Liver-eatin Johnson''s wife and child were Native, but good on yer history.

I don't need to look at wiki for history, and pity those that do...

Right on brother. Among my people we have a saying "Lets' agree to disagree"

We do not have the resources for"pitched battles" To cold, not enough protein, winters are to long and hard, etc. Kind of intelligent reasons to make peace eh brother?
 
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flicker said:
Right on brother. Among my people we have a saying "Lets' agree to disagree"

We do not have the resources for"pitched battles" To cold, not enough protein, winters are to long and hard, etc. Kind of intelligent reasons to make peace eh brother?

Among mine, "sheu sheu". Welcome, mine is yours.

I don't think either of us can win...

It's still fun to rip into eachother, though. And no bloody mess to clean up after...