Returning Dopers racing at their doped level..

[greatking88]

First of all, sorry if this has been a thread already, couldn't see it..

Secondly, I'm having trouble with the title of the thread


What I'm wondering is, how can returning dopers still achieve the same performance and results as when doped..
If they can achieve their current results 'clean', why did they ever dope in the first place??(And obviously the dope didnt work that well..if their results are the same )
And why do the cycling media never ask them how they can achieve their current results clean..
Leads me to believe that these cyclists are still at whatever they were at first..
Some examples that come to mind... Basso, Scarponi, Di Luca, Vino, David Millar(to a certain degree)

 

[mountaindew]

Once a doper always a doper.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

There's exactly three possible answers to that question.

1. Doping does not improve performance, not even a placebo effect

- or -

2. They were never doping to begin with but a meshugga anti-doping system found them guilty anyway

- or -

3. The methods of avoiding detection are so effective, you only get caught if you deviate from "the Pharmstrong method", so they've gone back to doping but will take precautions to not repeat the previous error

 

[hrotha]

I think the kosher explanation is "they don't dope anymore but the sport is cleaner so they can keep up."

Vino remains roughly at the same level, Scarponi has actually improved a lot, Millar isn't nearly as strong as he was, it's too early to judge Di Luca, Basso now can't TT but his climbing doesn't seem to have suffered, Kashechkin is now mediocre, it's hard to judge Sinkewitz since he's been away from the top races but he doesn't seem to be much worse, Leukemans seems to be stronger than ever. There's a little bit of everything out there.

 

[D-Queued]

There's exactly three possible answers to that question.

1. Doping does not improve performance, not even a placebo effect

- or -

2. They were never doping to begin with but a meshugga anti-doping system found them guilty anyway

- or -

3. The methods of avoiding detection are so effective, you only get caught if you deviate from "the Pharmstrong method", so they've gone back to doping but will take precautions to not repeat the previous error

Or, some gains from doping can persist. Perhaps not all gains, and obviously not gains from all doping techniques.

This is known.

Knowlingly or not (i.e. more observation than accusation), it also helps explain why new 'clean' teams might favor old 'cleaned-up' riders rather than all new riders.

Dave.

 

[greatking88]

There's exactly three possible answers to that question.

1. Doping does not improve performance, not even a placebo effect

- or -

2. They were never doping to begin with but a meshugga anti-doping system found them guilty anyway

- or -

3. The methods of avoiding detection are so effective, you only get caught if you deviate from "the Pharmstrong method", so they've gone back to doping but will take precautions to not repeat the previous error

Yeah I think thats the most logical explanation..

 

[Granville57]

Or, some gains from doping can persist. Perhaps not all gains, and obviously not gains from all doping techniques.

This is one thing that often gets overlooked. Even if a rider is "reformed" he has the experience and "feeling" of riding beyond his natural ability. He has pushed his body to higher limits than it could normally go which, barring overuse or injury, has to have some positive effect on his long-term physical development.

The once-doped rider can still have an advantage in some ways.

 

[D-Queued]

This is one thing that often gets overlooked. Even if a rider is "reformed" he has the experience and "feeling" of riding beyond his natural ability. He has pushed his body to higher limits than it could normally go which, barring overuse or injury, has to have some positive effect on his long-term physical development.

The once-doped rider can still have an advantage in some ways.

Such feelings being enhanced by Testosterone-based enhancements, among others.

The muscles don't completely disappear, do they Ahnold?

Ask some of the former East German athletes about permanent changes.

We don't have to worry about their feelings so long as some physical gains remain.

Dave.

 

[greatking88]

Yeah I read quite a few articles that the use of certain steroids can cause permanent physical changes which will always give a former doper some advantage maybe..

 

[JPM London]

If you're not completely the cynical type, you could also theorise that some have indeed stopped doping, but when they were it affected their professionalism negatively and so they are in fact able to achieve a lot of the same by being better athletes. Basically some of the gain from the dope got lost in other areas...

Oh, and don't forget - Basso never actually doped. If anything his level should actually have improved since then because now he's no longer weakening himself by taking out all this blood that he's not gonna use...

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

First of all, sorry if this has been a thread already, couldn't see it..

Secondly, I'm having trouble with the title of the thread


What I'm wondering is, how can returning dopers still achieve the same performance and results as when doped..
If they can achieve their current results 'clean', why did they ever dope in the first place??(And obviously the dope didnt work that well..if their results are the same )
And why do the cycling media never ask them how they can achieve their current results clean..
Leads me to believe that these cyclists are still at whatever they were at first..
Some examples that come to mind... Basso, Scarponi, Di Luca, Vino, David Millar(to a certain degree)

To the OP: thread title is fine, infact totally appropriate.

Look at this from a rider's perspective. However talented you are, you come upon a point where you realize what's what. You finally understand that being 'on the gear' is part of the sport (as nauseating as I may find that).

You get on the program, and realize that it does work like mad. And you also realize that the testing is loose enough to circumvent popping a positive. You race for X ammount of time without getting popped, while at the same time stomping like an angry midget on crack. As are your buddies in the peloton.

Eventually you get a pos. Now you're f*cked and do your best to lie about it and cry about how much shame you feel. The system is compliant enough to let you back into the club.

Since all you have is racing, after dedicating your life to nothing else, you swear to race clean. You find that you're getting trounced. You're on a team with some rad doctors that assure you that they can help you out (or know the right people that can 'guarantee' it).

So... back on a program, albeit a little more sublime, and you can make your living again. It beats the hell out of hitting the local coal mine for a job, or slinging drinks with Ricco at the local hot spot.

Racers are racers because they have talent and they want to go fast. Once tasting the apple, if they don't quit, my money is them juicing again. It's what their lives are based upon.

 

[D-Queued]

If you're not completely the cynical type, you could also theorise that some have indeed stopped doping, but when they were it affected their professionalism negatively and so they are in fact able to achieve a lot of the same by being better athletes. Basically some of the gain from the dope got lost in other areas...

Oh, and don't forget - Basso never actually doped. If anything his level should actually have improved since then because now he's no longer weakening himself by taking out all this blood that he's not gonna use...

Basso is a miracle. He is a professional. No one trains like him. No one rides like him. The jersey should be his.

I am sorry for the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles.

But, Basso won't be a real cyclist until he beats cancer. Cancer beat him on the Alpe. Unless he beats cancer, he might have to use those blood bags to win a Tour.

Dave.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Basso is a miracle. He is a professional. No one trains like him. No one rides like him. The jersey should be his.

I am sorry for the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles.

But, Basso won't be a real cyclist until he beats cancer. Cancer beat him on the Alpe. Unless he beats cancer, he might have to use those blood bags to win a Tour.

Dave.

If I didn't appreciate cynicism, you'd probably p*ss me off. Fortunately, I do...

 

[Granville57]

Oh, and don't forget - Basso...

Basso has always been my favorite character in this play.
There he is, standing on the podium in Paris. LA is not only retiring, but in front of the whole world, he designates Basso as his heir apparent (with an acknowledgment of Jan, on the other step, almost as an afterthought). For Basso, the future couldn't have looked better. And he achieved all that by racing clean!

So it only makes sense that his next thoughts would be, "Damn, I should try this 'doping" thing." Whew, good thing he never really followed through with that crazy plan. How embarrassing that would've been.

 

[D-Queued]

If I didn't appreciate cynicism, you'd probably p*ss me off. Fortunately, I do...

Give full credit to 'London for bracketing a post with a "cynic" lead in and a tongue-in-cheek "Basso" closer. In the world of intellectual property, 'London is the inventor of record.

And, partial credit to you-know-who for providing the kind of statements that always leave you asking yourself, 'did he really say that'?

Me, I am just the engineer that connects the dots.

Dave.

 

[greatking88]

If you're not completely the cynical type, you could also theorise that some have indeed stopped doping, but when they were it affected their professionalism negatively and so they are in fact able to achieve a lot of the same by being better athletes. Basically some of the gain from the dope got lost in other areas...

Oh, and don't forget - Basso never actually doped. If anything his level should actually have improved since then because now he's no longer weakening himself by taking out all this blood that he's not gonna use...

I cant remember which former doper said on their return that 'doping had made them 100% more professional in their training and their training programme'.. i ll try and find who said it.

Ooh thats right Basso still only admits attempting to dope, quite funny that he was looking to dope after winning the Giro by over 9minutes..

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Give full credit to 'London for bracketing a post with a "cynic" lead in and a tongue-in-cheek "Basso" closer. In the world of intellectual property, 'London is the inventor of record.

And, partial credit to you-know-who for providing the kind of statements that always leave you asking yourself, 'did he really say that'?

Me, I am just the engineer that connects the dots.

Dave.

Choo choo! Chuga chuga!

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Oh, and don't forget - Basso never actually doped...

Hahhahha, that's funny!

 

[JPM London]

My personal favourite is probably Vino who apologised - not for doping as far as I know, but for being caught and embarrassing the sport.

Good thing he learnt from his mistakes and promised never to do it again - using foreign blood in his bags and getting caught I mean...

Number two must be Rasmussen who first wasn't in Italy, but Mexico, had sent in all his whereabouts, but the postal system and faxes in Italy, sorry Mexico, delayed all messages by about two weeks, then had actually been in Italy, but didn't want to say so because of marital issues. But he definitely didn't dope, that's for sure. The only thing I actually think he's correct about is that it's a bit unfair to get him for the whereabouts thing when they count the same infractions twice...

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

My personal favourite is probably Vino who apologised - not for doping as far as I know, but for being caught and embarrassing the sport.

Good thing he learnt from his mistakes and promised never to do it again - using foreign blood in his bags and getting caught I mean...

Number two must be Rasmussen who first wasn't in Italy, but Mexico, had sent in all his whereabouts, but the postal system and faxes in Italy, sorry Mexico, delayed all messages by about two weeks, then had actually been in Italy, but didn't want to say so because of marital issues. But he definitely didn't dope, that's for sure. The only thing I actually think he's correct about is that it's a bit unfair to get him for the whereabouts thing when they count the same infractions twice...

Believe it or not, this is a big issue.

The riders love the sport, it's their sole passion (well, that might be a bit dramatic).

It really is a grand sporting tradition that deserves some work to preserve it. That's where the rider comments come from regarding 'embarssing the sport'.

It is so entrenched in culture, and that's something I'm not sure many North Americans understand - regardless of LA's impact upon it. Bike racing is really part of Euro culture. If you're not from europe, you may not appreciate it.

Back to the 'embarassment'. I like to think everyone has a conscience. Holding to that, the riders know what they're doing, and they know what they are doing is fundamentally wrong... whether caught or not.

 

[la.margna]

Oh, and don't forget - Basso never actually doped. If anything his level should actually have improved since then because now he's no longer weakening himself by taking out all this blood that he's not gonna use...

quote of the day.
great stuff, mate

 

[TERMINATOR]

First of all, sorry if this has been a thread already, couldn't see it..

Secondly, I'm having trouble with the title of the thread


What I'm wondering is, how can returning dopers still achieve the same performance and results as when doped..
If they can achieve their current results 'clean', why did they ever dope in the first place??(And obviously the dope didnt work that well..if their results are the same )
And why do the cycling media never ask them how they can achieve their current results clean..
Leads me to believe that these cyclists are still at whatever they were at first..
Some examples that come to mind... Basso, Scarponi, Di Luca, Vino, David Millar(to a certain degree)

Any cyclist who comes back from a doping ban cannot and will not achieve the same performance as before and they never do. Most dopers come back and continue to dope. Valverde, DiLuca, Ricco, Frank Vandenbroucke....they all continue to dope.

 

[TERMINATOR]

I think the kosher explanation is "they don't dope anymore but the sport is cleaner so they can keep up."

Vino remains roughly at the same level, Scarponi has actually improved a lot, Millar isn't nearly as strong as he was, it's too early to judge Di Luca, Basso now can't TT but his climbing doesn't seem to have suffered, Kashechkin is now mediocre, it's hard to judge Sinkewitz since he's been away from the top races but he doesn't seem to be much worse, Leukemans seems to be stronger than ever. There's a little bit of everything out there.

And you know Vino is not doping how?

 

[TERMINATOR]

This is one thing that often gets overlooked. Even if a rider is "reformed" he has the experience and "feeling" of riding beyond his natural ability. He has pushed his body to higher limits than it could normally go which, barring overuse or injury, has to have some positive effect on his long-term physical development.

The once-doped rider can still have an advantage in some ways.

Riders who dope don't push their bodies to higher limits. The drug is what allows them to ride to higher limits. Thus, when they stop doping, 100% of the advantage of doping is also gone.

For you to say there is some type of long-term benefit is laughable. There is absolutely no long-term benefit once the doping stops. Steroid users...EPO...blood transfusions....once you stop any or all of those things you lose the benefit immediately.

 

[Granville57]

Riders who dope don't push their bodies to higher limits. The drug is what allows them to ride to higher limits. Thus, when they stop doping, 100% of the advantage of doping is also gone.

For you to say there is some type of long-term benefit is laughable.