Rider salaries

[Dear Wiggo]

If you dope you perform better and can get a better salary. Looking at the salaries of the lower tier riders is of interest when you consider the risk:reward ratio. 3 OOC tests with something like a .5% chance of catching you with EPO vs...

This post from 2011 indicates salaries as at 2000:

Some history information from the 2000TDF. This can be used for lack of other information i have currantly , but its a guess with inflation and the last 10years of increased salaries and fuel prices what a tour budget will work out to .
So from Velo news tour Guide 2000 :
Mapei-quick step 7 million
Festina 2.85million
Ag2R Prevoyance 3.5 million
Lotto-Adecco 3 million
Saeco-valli and valli 3.7 million
Credit Agricole 4.3 million ,( Credit Agricole is also a HUGE HUGE sponsor for single handed yacht racing for very successful french sailing teams .)
Once-Deutsche Bank 5.7million
team DeutscheTelekom 4.5 million
La Fancaise Des Jeux 3 million
Cofidis 5 milliion
Banesto 5 million
Rabobank 3.5 million
Team Farm Frites 2.8 million
Mercatone uno-Albacom 3 million
US Postal Service 5 million
Vini Caldirola-Sidermec 3 million
Team Polti 3 million
Bonjour-Toupargel 3.3 million
Kelme-costa Blanca 3.6 million
Memorycard -Jack &jones 2.2 million

Most teams appear to be operating at half or less of the budget of USPS. Am going to do some shts n giggles calcs.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

And there's a lot of riders riding in the pro peloton for a lot less than 6 figures.

According to the Union Cycliste Internationale, the average salary for a Continental pro in 2009 was about $81,000 USD. The average salary for a Pro Tour cyclist that year was $185,000 USD.

And yes, riding your bicycle... that's the playground. People who describe bicycle racing as a job, I have to think they've never had one. That, or they're romanticizing the notion of being a pro athlete.

I do appreciate that you qualified your statement: "I don't think I would..."

I didn't use peds as an amateur because the guy offering them to me was someone I could always beat. But, had I known the power of peds administered competently I would've been all over it.

Can you post the link where you got this information?

This link breaks down salary structure completely different.

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2010/11/how-much-do-pro-cyclists-make/

http://www.uci.ch/news/article/report-reveals-men-professional-cycling-healthy-position/

All due respect to you and your argument, however

In a similar vein the average annual salary of a rider with a UCI ProTeam has risen from 190,000 euros in 2009 to 264,000 euros in 2012.

UCI President Pat McQuaid commented: “It is very pleasing to see that the men`s professional cycling is prospering in these difficult times. Most of the cyclists within the professional peloton can live very well, or at least comfortably, on their salaries thanks to the support of sponsors who invest in this sport. These sponsors are attracted by the extremely good visibility cycling provides them throughout the year.”

This is propaganda, not data

 

[Dear Wiggo]

When Pat suggests average salaries are 190,000 up to 264,000 average, you can see in the following table what that actually means for riders.

Where the following table suggests an average of 153,000 for all riders, the reality is far different.

Here's what the average salary budget (80% of total budget assumption), average salary of top 4 riders, next 16 riders, median and average salary across the board.

If the number is red, it is at or above the associated overall calculated value.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I'll go make the median / average a bit more obvious and add some counts.

 

[Benotti69]

If you dope you perform better and can get a better salary. Looking at the salaries of the lower tier riders is of interest when you consider the risk:reward ratio. 3 OOC tests with something like a .5% chance of catching you with EPO vs...

It really doesn't make sense to ride as a pro and not dope. You either get with a program(team or other) and be a pro or leave and get a real world job. I do not think anyone would be able to ride along in the peloton with the knowledge that they are starting way behind everyone else due to the doping.

I dont believe official wage figures that are issued by UCI. I think riders at the top get their cheques, but lower down if you dont perform cheques go missing.Also bonus monies are handed out arbitrarily it would appear.

 

[King Boonen]

This thread is confusing... Feels like the middle of a conversation?

 

[MarkvW]

Re:

I'll go make the median / average a bit more obvious and add some counts.

The median non star salary

 

[Dear Wiggo]

If anyone has data, I'd love to plug the numbers in. It would be of interest to me to see what for example Wiggo or Froome went to after their performances at the Tour.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

I'll go make the median / average a bit more obvious and add some counts.

The median non star salary

35k

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

I'll go make the median / average a bit more obvious and add some counts.

The median non star salary

35k

For this kind of data you really need to band the salaries, report the mode and the SD and RSD for that band. The SD's will stop you being selective with your banding and this method gives you a better idea of the most common wage bracket in the peloton.

A median relies on a normal distribution so if you want to give a median you should also plot the distribution to back it up.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

I'll go make the median / average a bit more obvious and add some counts.

The median non star salary

35k

For this kind of data you really need to band the salaries

No, I don't.

Next you'll be telling me I need a positive test to discuss doping.

This is not a lab. It's an internet forum. The salaries are unknowns I have calculated based on the 80/20 rule.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

I'll go make the median / average a bit more obvious and add some counts.

The median non star salary

35k

For this kind of data you really need to band the salaries

No, I don't.

Next you'll be telling me I need a positive test to discuss doping.

This is not a lab. It's an internet forum. The salaries are unknowns I have calculated based on the 80/20 rule.

It was a suggestion to make the data more accurate. If it's just guessing in the dark then knock yourself out.

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

Maybe a discussion about Generally Accepted Accounting Practices Is in order. UCI notwithstanding, Ernst & Young is a reputable accounting firm.

 

[Irondan]

I posted this in a different thread yesterday.

I don't know how accurate it is but it's something.

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2010/11/how-much-do-pro-cyclists-make/

 

[More Strides than Rides]

If you're curious, I'll chime in with non-cycling context (which I seem to do, a lot). I think this format is a good way to think about tiers of salaries. The chart (scroll down) divides world leaders, world ranked top-10, world ranked 10-25, and world ranked 25th+. (Distance/Road runners have more opportunities, and it talks about top, national top-5, national top-25, and national 25-50 as well.)

http://trackandfieldathletesassociation.org/site/how-much-money-do-track-and-field-athletes-make/

Men/Women pay is obviously a major hurdle. I've seen articles about women's pay, but does anyone have any link handy to post?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

The reason we don't need to rank salaries is because we already know the top guys are on more than enough. Multi-million dollar contracts. The guys just below them are on more than enough too.

The average dom is what I am interested in. And the difference between what they start on, what they typically get (ie Froome or Wiggo) vs what they end up at. Trying to look at the cost:benefit of doping.

If you read the quote by the UCI above where they claim the average pro salary in 2012 was 264,000 and then take a look at the data from 2000 you will see how easily data can be manipulated to paint a nice picture.

Reality is very different.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

The reason we don't need to rank salaries is because we already know the top guys are on more than enough. Multi-million dollar contracts. The guys just below them are on more than enough too.

The average dom is what I am interested in. And the difference between what they start on, what they typically get (ie Froome or Wiggo) vs what they end up at. Trying to look at the cost:benefit of doping.

If you read the quote by the UCI above where they claim the average pro salary in 2012 was 264,000 and then take a look at the data from 2000 you will see how easily data can be manipulated to paint a nice picture.

Reality is very different.

The only reason I suggested it was that it is a slightly more robust way of doing the statistics and allows you to include all the data, not have to be selective to eliminate the obvious outliers (at both ends of the scale if there are any apprenticeship type roles?). When I said you I wasn't meaning specifically you and only you, it was a general you that would include anyone who was working on this kind of data. It's likely the answer will be the same, but it's harder to argue that the statistician has been selective with the data and manipulated it to suit their needs.

 

[Franklin]

Wouldn't you have to add in price money and kermesse starting money?

I'm reasonably sure that even a domestique pulls in a nice income (everything included) as soon as he lands a spot in a WT team. I know a few small Dutch ex-pro's from the 80ies and most of them managed to save up a pretty good nest-egg.

And if not completely wacko they often end up in jobs in either the bicycle industry (representative) or a job at a team. It's not pro-football or Pro-Tennis, but it's definitely a good career path if you manage to make it into the big league, even if only as domestique. Especially the smart educated pro's do pretty well after their career I think. Even a small time pro has more exposure than a college student. That definitely opens doors.

Not saying all is well, as the gaps a re huge, but I'm not ready to pity the domestiques in the WT just yet. It's the smaller regional teams where there's no money to be had.

All in all, doping to end up water bearer in the WT is both a "live the dream"thing as a sound economical decision.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Wouldn't you have to add in price money and kermesse starting money?

I'm reasonably sure that even a domestique pulls in a nice income (everything included) as soon as he lands a spot in a WT team. I know a few small Dutch ex-pro's from the 80ies and most of them managed to save up a pretty good nest-egg.

And if not completely wacko they often end up in jobs in either the bicycle industry (representative) or a job at a team. It's not pro-football or Pro-Tennis, but it's definitely a good career path if you manage to make it into the big league, even if only as domestique. Especially the smart educated pro's do pretty well after their career I think. Even a small time pro has more exposure than a college student. That definitely opens doors.

Not saying all is well, as the gaps a re huge, but I'm not ready to pity the domestiques in the WT just yet. It's the smaller regional teams where there's no money to be had.

All in all, doping to end up water bearer in the WT is both a "live the dream"thing as a sound economical decision.

I think prize money is very low and usually split between the team, but I'm not sure. You would add in kermesse money and other paid-for attendances, but how far down the peloton does that actually reach and how much is it in reality?

As for jobs in the business, it would be good to know the numbers but I would guess there are many fewer jobs available than riders coming through and while the WT will see many domestiques changing on, probably, a 5-10 year cycle, jobs they move into afterwards would most likely have a much shorter turnover I would think.

 

[Franklin]

Re: Re:

I think prize money is very low and usually split between the team, but I'm not sure.

It adds up. One Classic victory is about 25k if I remember correctly. Not all team win a classic, but a WT team should easily be able to rake in 100k+ in pricemoney a year(or loose sponsor ship very fast!). There are a lot of races and a lot of riders in a team. Spread over 25 people thats at least 4k, especially if the leaders forego their share (that depends per team and price I guess). And yes, if you get a WT contract, never ride a GT and drop down to continental level after a year you miss out on the perks, but I think we are looking at low, but solid WT domestiques?

You would add in kermesse money and other paid-for attendances, but how far down the peloton does that actually reach and how much is it in reality?

Doesn't have to be much to have an effect. If you get 100 Euro and race 4-5 kermesses you get a nice 500 euro just as bonus. And I'm sure you can race more if you want.

Most people are not getting those kind of bonusses

As for jobs in the business, it would be good to know the numbers but I would guess there are many fewer jobs available than riders coming through and while the WT will see many domestiques changing on, probably, a 5-10 year cycle, jobs they move into afterwards would most likely have a much shorter turnover I would think.

Yeah, that's most likely true.

I can only speak from anecdote, but considering I know these people through their connections means I only meet the lucky few. So your point is valid.

Still, I can only imagine it's a good start of a career in Europe. Most people have respect for pro cyclists and even admire their life, even if it's just riding in the belly of the peloton though France.

No, I'm not convinced yet that even a marginal pro at the WT level is making the wrong choice. If you have a good set of brains you have a door opener for life... and if you lack the brains, well at least it saves you a lowly supermarket job for a few years

But I fully admit lacking any hard data and am just guessing here.

=> Checked the linked article.
35k euro is close to median income in Germany. Adding in 5k of bonusses definitely gets it up there.

Price money of the TdF strengthens my belief my 100k yearly pricemoney for a team is lowball, even though the best teams take most cash. And there's an issue with the split which is a big questionmark.

I'm also 100% sure there will be under the table money in smaller races. That's peanuts, but it adds up (and is tax-free). Same goes from handouts from the sponsor (witnessed an envelope gift party myself). It's not Beverly hills style money, but it's not something the average worker recieves.

A job where Germany's median income is the lowest income can't be that bad.

It's the pro conti and worse, the conti level where we can find poverty.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

A couple of stories of prize money and the like not being paid either
* by the race organisers
* by the team to the riders

I realise there is prize money and that is definitely a part of the package, but for me that is a limited subset of the riders and a random allocation, or going to the better riders on the better wage.

I am really interested in looking at cost:benefit of doping and its impact on the cyclist's salary, which is typically a guaranteed income -- although there are stories (JV & Trent Lowe springs to mind but there are other) where even that is withheld.

 

[King Boonen]

When I say split between the team I mean the whole team, that's support staff and everything. The rest sounds perfectly sensible, I work at a university so know nothing about bonuses!

However, it's still median wage in general for countries (assuming Germany is fairly typical) and when you retire you have to find something else to do (if you're not lucky enough to stay in the industry) and you've missed out on 15-20 years training and experience.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

A couple of stories of prize money and the like not being paid either
* by the race organisers
* by the team to the riders

I realise there is prize money and that is definitely a part of the package, but for me that is a limited subset of the riders and a random allocation, or going to the better riders on the better wage.

I am really interested in looking at cost:benefit of doping and its impact on the cyclist's salary, which is typically a guaranteed income -- although there are stories (JV & Trent Lowe springs to mind but there are other) where even that is withheld.

This would be extremely interesting, but sounds like very hard data to come by.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

A couple of stories of prize money and the like not being paid either
* by the race organisers
* by the team to the riders

I realise there is prize money and that is definitely a part of the package, but for me that is a limited subset of the riders and a random allocation, or going to the better riders on the better wage.

I am really interested in looking at cost:benefit of doping and its impact on the cyclist's salary, which is typically a guaranteed income -- although there are stories (JV & Trent Lowe springs to mind but there are other) where even that is withheld.

This would be extremely interesting, but sounds like very hard data to come by.

It's enough to get salary budget and # of staff / riders, I think. Or even plain old budget and use a % for salaries.

There was a page somewhere with all the team's budgets once I think?

 

[Franklin]

@ King Boonen, I'm not disagreeing with you, just a bit less pessimistic about their wages and chances. Granted, I forgot the staff which probably halves the price money. But still, I can't imagine that riding the TdF would not come up positively at a job interview. You are an instant hero for really a lot of people (women included). The disdain for cyling due to doping does not seem to affect the view of individual riders. (We know cycling is dirty, but ex-pro's are generally well liked).

Heck, even "the one who should not be named" could be bankrupt tomorrow and still be able to live well in the remainder of his life simply due to exposure. I'm certain exposure is financially far more beneficial than the negativity surrounding the sport.

@DW I would love to know as well, but I think it's impossible to do such a calculation, especially if the result of doping is hard to predict. It's not a matter of just cramming in more doping and you will certainly become a winner.

That said, considering the exposure and the effect on your further career I would say that doping is almost always worth it. A few years in the WT makes stories for life.