Riders who probably dope but don't dare at The Tour

[benlondon]

I think there's some mileage in this. Here's three to kick things off but I'm sure there are plenty more...

1. Dennis Menchov - super form at the Giro nowhere at the Tour
2. Stijn Devolder - new blood for the Tour of Flanders each year, new contract, increased salary & then in total obscurity for the rest of the season.
3. Linus Gerdemann - no recent form worth talking about.

 

[BigBoat]

Of course their doped right now bro. No risk at all with autologous blood doping to a 50% or slightly higher crit. They must just be careful to hemodilute a tad bit on IV saline every morning just in case. They dont even need to use HGH during the Tour if they have this. I would tho.

They are just not on good fitness. If they were clean they might not even be able to finish due to the the incredible pace. The Tour is harder than the Giro, and at best a very very talented clean man could have gotten 50-60 places. Menchov is not at best because he's very tired from winning the Giro. If he was clean and not at best he'd have DNF'd or been riding with some dropped sprinter behind the sweeper vehicle. LOL

 

[beroepsrenner]

Too many people are way too cynical. Only freaks like Eddy Merckx can sustain top performance throughout a season. Just because one man's performances peak and trough from one month to the next doesn't necessarily mean its doping related. The effort required to win a 3 week stage race is almost impossible to repeat again a month later for most people.Just to complete 2 or even all 3 grand tours is a feat in its self. the expectations of the archair experts is a contributing reason cyclists dope in the first place.

 

[issoisso]

I think there's some mileage in this. Here's three to kick things off but I'm sure there are plenty more...

1. Dennis Menchov - super form at the Giro nowhere at the Tour

You can't have tip top form at the Giro and then at the Tour. You just can't. There's not much more to it in this case.

2. Stijn Devolder - new blood for the Tour of Flanders each year, new contract, increased salary & then in total obscurity for the rest of the season.

He's not a stage racer, as much as he'd love to think he is. He's a very-soon-to-be-30-year-old who can time trial and does very well on the cobbled climbs and thinks the universe of himself (I'd say he thinks the world, but that wouldn't do his ego justice).

3. Linus Gerdemann - no recent form worth talking about.

With that guy's know-it-all win-at-all-costs attitude, I don't see any chance that that's the reason for his bad performance



You want the case of a guy not daring to dope at the Tour? Think of a certain ukrainian rider whose performances dropped considerably last year at the exact moment when his best friend and permanent teammate tested positive for EPO and retired.

Or think of a certain italian on whom Pierre Bourdry commented his performances had taken a nosedive the moment the AFLD told him his blood values were suspicious after the stage 5 TT last year.

(Popovych and Cunego in case it's not clear)

 

[Frosty]

Or think of a certain italian on whom Pierre Bourdry commented his performances had taken a nosedive the moment the AFLD told him his blood values were suspicious after the stage 5 TT last year.

(Popovych and Cunego in case it's not clear)

Is there a link for this? I remember someone commenting on how some riders' values had dropped back to normal levels and their performances had become ordinary but i didnt realise he had named names?

 

[john_d]

You can't have tip top form at the Giro and then at the Tour. You just can't. There's not much more to it in this case.

Sometimes opinions get in the way of the facts ...

Bernard Hinalult

1982
Tour de France
1st place overall classification
Winner prologue, stages 15, 20 and 22
12 days in yellow jersey
Giro d'Italia
1st place overall classification
Winner prologue, stages 3, 12, 18, 22
15 days in pink jersey

1985
Tour de France
1st place overall classification
Winner prologue, stage 8
16 days in yellow jersey
Giro d'Italia
1st place overall classification
Winner stage 12
10 days in pink jersey

 

[elapid]

I think there's some mileage in this. Here's three to kick things off but I'm sure there are plenty more...

1. Dennis Menchov - super form at the Giro nowhere at the Tour
2. Stijn Devolder - new blood for the Tour of Flanders each year, new contract, increased salary & then in total obscurity for the rest of the season.
3. Linus Gerdemann - no recent form worth talking about.

Agree with issoisso on most of this. Yes, some riders have done the Giro-TdF double, but it isn't easy. The TTT affected his position in the overall, thanks mainly to his crash. I'm sure his reported association with the Vienna Blood Bank has not helped his mental state.

Stijn Devolder is over-rated for a three week tour. He is a very good classics rider and may be a good one week tour rider, but three weeks is beyond his capabilities. The same thing happened to Hincapie after he won a single mountain stage in the TdF. He was touted as the next big American rider and leader of the Discovery team. It was never going to happen.

When has Linus Gerdemann ever had tour-winning form? He rides very well, but was only in yellow because he turned himself inside out to win that stage. If there is anyone in the peloton that is doping-free, then I would bet that Gerdemann is that rider.

 

[blackcat]

Agree with issoisso on most of this. Yes, some riders have done the Giro-TdF double, but it isn't easy. The TTT affected his position in the overall, thanks mainly to his crash. I'm sure his reported association with the Vienna Blood Bank has not helped his mental state.

Stijn Devolder is over-rated for a three week tour. He is a very good classics rider and may be a good one week tour rider, but three weeks is beyond his capabilities. The same thing happened to Hincapie after he won a single mountain stage in the TdF. He was touted as the next big American rider and leader of the Discovery team. It was never going to happen.

When has Linus Gerdemann ever had tour-winning form? He rides very well, but was only in yellow because he turned himself inside out to win that stage. If there is anyone in the peloton that is doping-free, then I would bet that Gerdemann is that rider.

disagree with Devolder. As is, yes you are right. But Armstrong said he could win the Tour.

Makes me think, Armstrong knows how much the recovery and transfusion program can give, in conjuntion with Ferrari

 

[issoisso]

Sometimes opinions get in the way of the facts ...

Bernard Hinalult

1982
Tour de France
1st place overall classification
Winner prologue, stages 15, 20 and 22
12 days in yellow jersey
Giro d'Italia
1st place overall classification
Winner prologue, stages 3, 12, 18, 22
15 days in pink jersey

1985
Tour de France
1st place overall classification
Winner prologue, stage 8
16 days in yellow jersey
Giro d'Italia
1st place overall classification
Winner stage 12
10 days in pink jersey

However on this case, facts escape people. Namely you. Notice how you had to go back to 1985?

There are two things you're missing.

A. Riders' training wasn't as targeted as it was now. Now you have to be in tip top condition at both to win both. Back then, that wasn't the case.

The transition is most evident in the early nineties. By the start of Induráin's reign he was doing the Giro-Tour double. Later he was doing it at a severe cost to his reserves. Later still, he was not hitting top form at the Giro. By the end, he was skipping the Giro completely.

This is the part where you're probably going to quote Pantani winning both.....but had it not been for a random collapse by Ullrich, he wouldn't have won the Tour, and had it not been for Festina screwing up Zülle's doping programme, he wouldn't have won the Giro. So under normal circumstances he wouldn't have won either.

B. What was Hinault the master of? That's right, the chrono. How were the Giro routes in the early eighties? flat. There was usually one, sometimes two mountain stages. Usually limited to one major climb per stage. This was so that riders such as Moser and Saronni would win.

Next time, try not to answer me back like that. Respect would've been nice on your part......especially considering you were missing obvious facts

disagree with Devolder. As is, yes you are right. But Armstrong said he could win the Tour.

Makes me think, Armstrong knows how much the recovery and transfusion program can give, in conjuntion with Ferrari

This would be the Armstrong that regularly when asked on this or that riders' performance (Kohl for example), has remarked he doesn't even know the rider in question?

Is there a link for this? I remember someone commenting on how some riders' values had dropped back to normal levels and their performances had become ordinary but i didnt realise he had named names?

That's the occasion allright

He was asked if Cunego was one of the targetted riders. At the time, a few different outlets (I remember euronews did so) reported he had smiled back to the question and answered back, not saying the name Cunego, but clearly refering to the question just asked that "some riders'" blood values went back to normal as soon as the riders were warned......"even if their performances did the opposite" (this is an exact quote as I remember it)

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Good points Issoisso. Thought the same thing about Hinault.

Cunego is an interesting case. First the way his performance dropped off. Second, form his comments at the start of the Giro.

 

[Escarabajo]

II think Valverde last year at the first part of the Tour. He has been persecuted ever since Puerto so his Tour de France results shows occasionally.

The US Postal team in 2006. They were so bad that it makes you wonder if OP had anything to do with it.

 

[BroDeal]

The US Postal team in 2006. They were so bad that it makes you wonder if OP had anything to do with it.

When Armstrong retired he took all the centrifuges with him. He has been selling them off on eBay. I tried to buy one but was outbid by Bernhard Kohl.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

When has Linus Gerdemann ever had tour-winning form? He rides very well, but was only in yellow because he turned himself inside out to win that stage. If there is anyone in the peloton that is doping-free, then I would bet that Gerdemann is that rider.

Wow, not even me (as german), would go so far "to bet" that Gerdemann is clean. I like the way he speaks against doping, but there was his work with Ceccini (ok, thats a long time ago).

Never tour-form? Well, before his accident at tirreno last year, he was great in TT, later won the German-Tour. This year he did well on tirreno and Bayern-Tour (winning). Only complete "disaster" in the past 2 years was this years Swiss-Tour. He is doing very well at the tour right now (if i take out that crazy disastrous Milram-TTT (5 riders finishing, 4 were falling), he would be down 1.32 = pretty much in Top10 !)

 

[Escarabajo]

when armstrong retired he took all the centrifuges with him. He has been selling them off on ebay. I tried to buy one but was outbid by bernhard kohl.

lol.....................

 

[Cobblestones]

When Armstrong retired he took all the centrifuges with him. He has been selling them off on eBay. I tried to buy one but was outbid by Bernhard Kohl.

The one I bought was useless. Too much EPO residue. Must've been the 1999 model.

Who doesn't dare to dope right now? Probably most of Rabo. And whoever forgot to send in the check.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

IThe US Postal team in 2006. They were so bad that it makes you wonder if OP had anything to do with it.

Maybe Gerolsteiner that year, judging by the way Levi rode (see my other thread).

When Gerdemann finishes two hours back, or DNF's like he "should" I'll join the chorus singing he's (probably) clean.

 

[craig1985]

Andreas Kloden perhaps?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Maybe Gerolsteiner that year, judging by the way Levi rode (see my other thread).

When Gerdemann finishes two hours back, or DNF's like he "should" I'll join the chorus singing he's (probably) clean.

how comes you have such bad feeling of him? he is not from the east-germany school

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Perhaps I'm a bit harsh Foxy, but it's for the reasons you listed in your thread, his improvement, and what others have posted. Sorry if I sounded so cynical, I'm trying to work on that.

I have no inside info, at all, and honestly haven't studied the guy as much as others.

Put it this way, I'd like to think Brad Wiggins is completely clean. If he finishes in the top 20 at the Tour, I'll have serious doubts about that though. Linus gets less benefit because of his background. Though I do appreciate him speaking out, remember that Kohl spoke out against doping too.

 

[issoisso]

how comes you have such bad feeling of him? he is not from the east-germany school

I can't speak for Alpe d'Huez, but for me personally, I can't trust him. A guy who's screwed over so many different people at each chance he got to further his career, is clearly someone who will stop at nothing to win.

As for being outspoken against doping....so was Thomas Dekker. So was Tyler Hamilton. So was Bernhard Kohl....so were most riders. They're outspoken against doping because right now it helps you build the image of cleanliness that they want to build to protect themselves.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I can't speak for Alpe d'Huez, but for me personally, I can't trust him. A guy who's screwed over so many different people at each chance he got to further his career, is clearly someone who will stop at nothing to win.

As for being outspoken against doping....so was Thomas Dekker. So was Tyler Hamilton. So was Bernhard Kohl....so were most riders. They're outspoken against doping because right now it helps you build the image of cleanliness that they want to build to protect themselves.

Yeah, but he even went to fight with the King! He gave interviews in the biggest non-yellow-press in Germany. I mean he could shoot himself and his whole family if he gets a positiv. Like Ullrich going to Switzerland would not be enough form him, he´d better go to Simbawe then. He was going MUCH further then Voight or anybody else. I dont know, then he must be cooler then ice and the King.

P.S.: I somehow follow his career. No big performance jumps (up or down), wins at smaller HC-Races (Suisse, Bayern, German-Tour). Only this years tour de Suisse jumped out (negativ). After this he came REAL thin to the TdF. I tought he is falling from his bike. Anyway, i wudnt "bet" on him, but he looks pretty much grey. As Alpe uses to say. I like that saying, coz i use it so much now

 

[beroepsrenner]

Sometimes opinions get in the way of the facts ...

Bernard Hinalult

1982
Tour de France
1st place overall classification
Winner prologue, stages 15, 20 and 22
12 days in yellow jersey
Giro d'Italia
1st place overall classification
Winner prologue, stages 3, 12, 18, 22
15 days in pink jersey

1985
Tour de France

1st place overall classification
Winner prologue, stage 8
16 days in yellow jersey
Giro d'Italia
1st place overall classification
Winner stage 12
10 days in pink jersey

Hinault was another freak like Merckx. My comment regarding Menchov applies to mortals.