Rough Attempt at an All-Time Ranking

[red_flanders]

Well it's easy if you count major wins a lot heavier than just podiums, and it gets easier still if you rate GTs higher than monuments or WCs.

Who wouldn’t? I guess that’s a pretty American question.

Agree it’s too GT weighted, however.

 

[tobydawq]

None. But he won 7 monuments. And 6 TT championships. IMO that beats 1 Vuelta, 4 LBL and Worlds.

So you can count TT championships now but podiums in Grand Tours are totally negligible? Alright, I don't think it makes much sense to spend more time on this, now.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

To put Boonen ahead of Valverde you basically have to not rate GT podiums or World podiums and historically important stage races like Catalunya, Pais Vasco, and Dauphine at all.

I don’t rate losing anything enormously highly when it comes to ranking the absolute best of a whole era. I might make an exception for second and third at the Tour de France, but certainly not for any one day race.

As for Boonen versus Valverde, I rate Valverde’s palmares higher. But I don’t think you’d have to be a lunatic to disagree. Boonen won an outlandish number of important one day races.

 

[Fantastico]

I see the point that wins must count much more than podiums and high placings. And it's definitely the case that Valverde compared to others has less high-ranked wins. That's also why I - in constrast to other Valverde fans here - would not consider him the greatest rider of the last 20 years.

But it's beyond me that some people really want only wins to count. That's like saying Oscar Pereiro's TdF record is as good as Jan Ullrich's because both just managed to win the race once.

 

[Red Rick]

Conditions for having pure classics riders over Valverde:

• You ignore winning both GTs and major one days races
• You don't really rate the Vuelta above a monument
• You kinda give Valverde crap for only winning Liege of the monuments
• You fully ignore GT and Worlds podiums

Bettini I might be able to give you.
Sagan is 2 full big wins short, so you really have to overemphasize world titles, but then you can also arguably put Freire in there.

So the conditions get stretched really far. While in order to rate Nibali, Contador and Froome ahead of Valverde mostly you rate GTs a bit higher than monuments and you rate wins a fair bit higher than podiums.

 

[Blanco]

None. But he won 7 monuments. And 6 TT championships. IMO that beats 1 Vuelta, 4 LBL and Worlds.

Yeah it does, but it doesn't beat 130 wins (vs 88), it doesn't beat 60 WT wins (vs 41), it doesn't beat 7 WT classics + 7 WT stage races (vs 1 WT classic 2 WT stage races), and it doesn't beat 20 podiums in major races (vs 10).

 

[OlavEH]

Yeah it does, but it doesn't beat 130 wins (vs 88), it doesn't beat 60 WT wins (vs 41), it doesn't beat 7 WT classics + 7 WT stage races (vs 1 WT classic 2 WT stage races), and it doesn't beat 20 podiums in major races (vs 10).

1 WT classic? Cancellara has equally many wins in semi clcassics as Valverde.

 

[Blanco]

Conditions for having pure classics riders over Valverde:

• You ignore winning both GTs and major one days races
• You don't really rate the Vuelta above a monument
• You kinda give Valverde crap for only winning Liege of the monuments
• You fully ignore GT and Worlds podiums

Bettini I might be able to give you.
Sagan is 2 full big wins short, so you really have to overemphasize world titles, but then you can also arguably put Freire in there.

So the conditions get stretched really far. While in order to rate Nibali, Contador and Froome ahead of Valverde mostly you rate GTs a bit higher than monuments and you rate wins a fair bit higher than podiums.

Conditions for having any rider in the last 20 years over Valverde in some ranking system:
You rate GT's much higher than Monuments and Worlds.
You rate Tour way above others.
You rate wins 4 or 5 times higher then second place, and more than 10 times higher than third.
You don't count any other races than the big 9.

 

[Blanco]

1 WT classic? Cancellara has equally many wins in semi clcassics as Valverde.

He has won 1 World Tour classic apart from Monuments, E3 Harelbeke in 2013.

 

[tobydawq]

Does anybody have Pisti's contact information? I would like to have his take on this.

 

[tobydawq]

He has won 1 World Tour classic apart from Monuments, E3 Harelbeke in 2013.

It doesn't make sense not to count his other E3 and his Strade wins as if they were WT, I don't think. Even if it is technically true.

 

[OlavEH]

He has won 1 World Tour classic apart from Monuments, E3 Harelbeke in 2013.

3 times E3 and 3 times Strade Bianche. That is eqally good as 4 times FW and 2 times San Sebastian.

 

[Red Rick]

Conditions for having any rider in the last 20 years over Valverde in some ranking system:
You rate GT's much higher than Monuments and Worlds.
You rate Tour way above others.
You rate wins 4 or 5 times higher then second place, and more than 10 times higher than third.
You don't count any other races than the big 9.

Rating the Tour the highest and rating any GT over any monument aren't exactly unreasonable propositions. I think it might be relatively surprising how much higher you'd need to rate GT wins than GT podiums to get Nibali or Froome there.

Nibali and Froome also have I believe do better on GT stage wins.

 

[tobydawq]

3 times E3 and 3 times Strade Bianche. That is eqally good as 4 times FW and 2 times San Sebastian.

5 times FW.

 

[OlavEH]

5 times FW.

Okay. Still more or less eqvivalent to Cancellara in the semi classics.

 

[tobydawq]

Okay. Still more or less eqvivalent to Cancellara in the semi classics.

Hard to argue with. But a bit annoying that he never managed an AGR or Strade. Next year!

 

[Red Rick]

Does anybody have Pisti's contact information? I would like to have his take on this.

Not until I figure out how to get Cavendish > Gilbert/Boonen

 

[tobydawq]

Not until I figure out how to get Cavendish > Gilbert/Boonen

Just rate stages in GTs equal to GC.

 

[Blanco]

Rating the Tour the highest and rating any GT over any monument aren't exactly unreasonable propositions. I think it might be relatively surprising how much higher you'd need to rate GT wins than GT podiums to get Nibali or Froome there.

Nibali and Froome also have I believe do better on GT stage wins.

Well if we include GT stages, then It is hard to not include races like Fleche, San Sebastian, Catalunya, Pais Vasco, Dauphine...

 

[Blanco]

I know many around here aren't fans of podium places, let alone top 10 placings, but I have some interesting statistics, about Valverde of course. It shows what big names he left behind. Results are from famous big 9 races.

Wins:
33 - Merckx
17 - Coppi
16 - Hinault
14 - Binda
12 - Bartali
11 - Girardengo, De Vlaeminck
10 - Van Looy, Gimondi, Kelly
9 - Anquetil
8 - Van Steenbergen, Bobet, Moser, Bettini, Boonen
7 - H.Pelissier, Argentin, Indurain, Museeuw, Contador, Cancellara, Nibali, Froome
6 - Belloni, Brunero, Magni, De Bruyne, Rominger, Freire, Valverde, Gilbert

Podiums (without wins):
20 - Valverde
17 - Poulidor
16 - Moser
15 - Gimondi
12 - Merckx
11 - Bartali, De Vlaeminck, Purito
10 - Van Springel, Cancellara, Nibali

Top 10 (including wins and podiums):
67 - Merckx
47 - Valverde
43 - Gimondi, Moser
42 - Poulidor, De Vlaeminck, Kelly
40 - Bartali
35 - Coppi, Van Looy

 

[Leinster]

To put Boonen ahead of Valverde you basically have to not rate GT podiums or World podiums and historically important stage races like Catalunya, Pais Vasco, and Dauphine at all.

And I don't believe in rating different monuments at different levels really.

It’s not like Tommeke didn’t also have multiple podiums at Worlds and Monuments.

We can of course consider Bala’s GT podiums when assessing his palmares, but then you must also logically rank the winners and runners up of those GTs higher than him, so that would include Contador, Nibali, Froome, Vino, Quintana, Chavez and, obviously, Horner.


Incidentally, has a score been assessed for setting a World Hour Record? It’s something that clearly adds to the reputation of Merckx, Coppi, Moser, Indurain, Wiggins.

 

[Sandisfan]

This thread has been Awesome. I have liked many posts that are opposed to one another because the level of debate was well founded. That is the thing with this Forum and others I have been to, is that I have learned so much especially here at the CN Forums. A well run Forum will often lead to more and better understanding of the subject for example sports Forums than you would ever get from, for instance, cycling news and magazine outlets. As an example There is no one out there with the Cycling and Route Knowledge from just Libertine Seguros right here. Thank You all for the history and Knowledge you contribute to this Site.

 

[Parker]

21st century would probably go like

God tier:

Spoiler

Vinokourov

S tier
Contador, Nibali, Froome

A tier
Bettini, Valverde, Cancellara

B tier
Boonen, Sagan, Freire, Cavendish

C tier
Gilbert

D Tier
Roglic, Pogacar, Alaphilippe, Evans, Cunego, Di Luca, Quintana, Bernal, Rodriguez


Now the bottom line I wouldn't consider legends yet, but I think the guys still active will get there eventually

I think this is a good summary. My changes would be I think Nibali was clearly a notch below Contador & Froome. I think A,B,C could all be smashed together and Pogacar & Alaphillippe added. I think you undervalue both Gilbert and Sagan (he's close to S tier). Wiggins, Thomas, Kittel, Petacchi and Tony Martin merit consideration.

 

[Pantani_lives]

Among the next ten are the first Tour winner, the first Italian Tour winner, the best Polish rider, and one of three riders born in the Soviet Union.

140 Claude Criquielion 188
139 Richard Virenque 189
138 Silvano Contini 190
137 Andrei Tchmil 190
136 Maurice Garin 191
135 André Greipel 192
134 Michał Kwiatkowski 192
133 Stefano Garzelli 193
132 Ottavio Bottecchia 193
131 Frank Vandenbroucke 195

Criquielion could have been #106 without that crash in Ronse. Vandenbroucke could have been much higher if he hadn't collapsed after his 25th. There are actually seventeen still active riders in this list - some in the twilight of their career.

Incidentally, has a score been assessed for setting a World Hour Record? It’s something that clearly adds to the reputation of Merckx, Coppi, Moser, Indurain, Wiggins.

No, because that's track cycling.

 

[Pantani_lives]

It's time for the first Colombian GT winner, three almost forgotten Tour winners, and a cyclo-cross champion.

130 Luis Herrera 195
129 Italo Zilioli 197
128 Wout Van Aert 197
127 Denis Menchov 197
126 Gianbattista Baronchelli 200
125 Gastone Nencini 200
124 Louis Trousselier 201
123 Andrea Tafi 205
122 Georges Ronsse 205
121 Sylvère Maes 205

Van Aert is the second youngest rider in this list. Those silver medals on the road gave him the necessary extra points.