Rough Attempt at an All-Time Ranking

[Salvarani]

Frantz won both of his Tours when the majority of the stages were held in a TTT format.

That's one more thing to add when it comes to comparing the incomparable.

I dont get your point or what you are trying to say. He was a great rider. One of the best of his generation.

 

[pmcg76]

Seriously, sprinters like Cavendish, Cipo, Petacchi, Greipel, McEwen should not be on any top 100 list. It's an insult to the sport, a bit like putting kickers in American football on a great players list based on how many points they score. Need to devalue sprint stage wins by at least 3 or 4 to get a proper system.

 

[Red Rick]

Seriously, sprinters like Cavendish, Cipo, Petacchi, Greipel, McEwen should not be on any top 100 list. It's an insult to the sport, a bit like putting kickers in American football on a great players list based on how many points they score. Need to devalue sprint stage wins by at least 3 or 4 to get a proper system.

Cool can we now devalue 2 of Sagans WC as well cause they were also sprints where he did nothing all day?

 

[ice&fire]

Cool can we now devalue 2 of Sagans WC as well cause they were also sprints where he did nothing all day?

You can also wipe all of Freire's.

 

[Red Rick]

You can also wipe all of Freire's.

I mean his greatest achievement was always the legendary phrase

"I was shot in my ***"

 

[Blanco]

Seriously, sprinters like Cavendish, Cipo, Petacchi, Greipel, McEwen should not be on any top 100 list. It's an insult to the sport, a bit like putting kickers in American football on a great players list based on how many points they score. Need to devalue sprint stage wins by at least 3 or 4 to get a proper system.

Some of those guys won more than 150 races, and literally are/were the fastest guys out there, and they don't deserve to be in the top 100?! Interesting view...

 

[tobydawq]

You can also wipe all of Freire's.

His first wasn't even won in a sprint, but sure.

 

[Pantani_lives]

It's time for some guys with a big trophy cabinet.

30 Tom Boonen 494
29 Fiorenzo Magni 499
28 Franco Bitossi 518
27 Mario Cipollini 519
26 Learco Guerra 546
25 Raymond Poulidor 549
24 Alberto Contador 550
23 Vincenzo Nibali 558
22 Peter Sagan 570
21 Chris Froome 583

The rest of the "Big Four" are neatly lumped together - with a Slovak in between. Contador would have been #17 without the disqualifications.

Another coincidence: Boonen and Magni have both won the Tour of Flanders three times.

If stage wins were downgraded by 1 point Cipollini would lose eight places. Don't forget that stage wins in one-week races aren't even counted.
In the end winning a world title, a monument and fifty-seven GT stages is an extraordinary achievement.

The top 20 follows tomorrow!

 

[pmcg76]

Some of those guys won more than 150 races, and literally are/were the fastest guys out there, and they don't deserve to be in the top 100?! Interesting view...

Of course they don't deserve to be in the top 100. Of races that actually matter as opposed to stage wins, what have they actually won between them? 2 World Titles, 3 Milan San Remo, Paris-Tours and 3 Ghent Wevelgem. Paolo Bettini alone has a better record than that. Take away their sprin trains and what would they have won? We are talking about greatest cyclist, not who couldsit behind a train until the final 200m. As I said they are the equivilant of kickers in American football or penalty takers in soccer. I don't think you would get anyone to claim that a player who scores 20 penalties a season is a great striker.

 

[roundabout]

I dont get your point or what you are trying to say. He was a great rider. One of the best of his generation.

Sigh

I am not denying that he was one of the best of his generation.

He is merely another good example in my view why it is difficult to compare riders across eras which is what this topic is about.

 

[tobydawq]

Of course they don't deserve to be in the top 100. Of races that actually matter as opposed to stage wins, what have they actually won between them? 2 World Titles, 3 Milan San Remo, Paris-Tours and 3 Ghent Wevelgem. Paolo Bettini alone has a better record than that. Take away their sprin trains and what would they have won? We are talking about greatest cyclist, not who couldsit behind a train until the final 200m. As I said they are the equivilant of kickers in American football or penalty takers in soccer. I don't think you would get anyone to claim that a player who scores 20 penalties a season is a great striker.

"Penalty takers in soccer". Lol, yeah, like that's a thing.

 

[pmcg76]

"Penalty takers in soccer". Lol, yeah, like that's a thing.

2 Strikers, both score 20 goals in a season. One scored 15 penalties, the other didn't take penalties. Who is the better striker?

 

[tobydawq]

2 Strikers, both score 20 goals in a season. One scored 15 penalties, the other didn't take penalties. Who is the better striker?

When has a player ever been top scorer with 75% of his goals coming from penalties?

 

[pmcg76]

When has a player ever been top scorer with 75% of his goals coming from penalties?

It's a theoretical example, change it to whatever figure you want. It's really not difficult to answer in any regards.

 

[Parker]

Seriously, sprinters like Cavendish, Cipo, Petacchi, Greipel, McEwen should not be on any top 100 list. It's an insult to the sport, a bit like putting kickers in American football on a great players list based on how many points they score. Need to devalue sprint stage wins by at least 3 or 4 to get a proper system.

#SPM. Sprinter Palmares Matter. This sort of discrimination needs to stop. Bunch sprinting is an exceptional talent. It's requires bravery and fast tactical thinking.

 

[tobydawq]

It's a theoretical example, change it to whatever figure you want. It's really not difficult to answer in any regards.

Exactly, it's a theoretical example of a theoretical concept. And I said that a "penalty taker" was not a thing, as in there is no player whose primary function is to take penalties.

Also, it's ridiculous how people pound on kickers in American football. It's really not their fault that the game is constructed the way it is (but okay, I agree that they shouldn't be compared with regular players in ranking lists).

But I basically think I agree with you wrt your point regarding sprinters, so maybe it's silly of us to get into a cat-fight over the penalty thing.

 

[Parker]

It's time for some guys with a big trophy cabinet.

30 Tom Boonen 494
29 Fiorenzo Magni 499
28 Franco Bitossi 518
27 Mario Cipollini 519
26 Learco Guerra 546
25 Raymond Poulidor 549
24 Alberto Contador 550
23 Vincenzo Nibali 558
22 Peter Sagan 570
21 Chris Froome 583

Some interesting names here. Poulidor of course is much loved, but his actual big wins (Vuelta, MSR & Paris-Nice) is a meagre haul. Of course, he was a podium king, even on the Tour podium of the Tour at 40. Have podiums been overrated?

Guerra is a completely new name to me. Wins mostly on the Italian circuit in the 30s with detours to the Tour. I think people don;t realise how regionalised cycling was until the 80s, 90s even.

Bitossi is a name I know, but not well. Headline wins? Only a couple of Lombardias.

 

[boneshaker]

Of course they don't deserve to be in the top 100. Take away their sprin trains and what would they have won? We are talking about greatest cyclist, not who couldsit behind a train until the final 200m.

Let us talk about numbers. What about this version :

Of course they don't deserve to be in the top 100. Take away their trains and what would they have won? We are talking about greatest cyclist, not who could sit behind a train until the final 3000m.

In other words, where is this magic line which transforms a train follower from unworthy to worthy one?

 

[Blanco]

what have they actually won between them? 2 World Titles, 3 Milan San Remo, Paris-Tours and 3 Ghent Wevelgem.

They won around 150 Grand Tour stages combined, probably even more... If you think that's easy, go sit yourself at the end of a sprinting train, and try to win at least one stage!!!

Edit: And I don't even like sprinters ffs!

 

[Red Rick]

Sprinters get punished enough for not being able to win stage races and most monuments, and only getting a chance or two at a World Title if at all.

You can argue smaller races shouldn't count much, but excluding a guy like Cavendish by defnition doesn't seem like the way to go

 

[pmcg76]

Sprinters get punished enough for not being able to win stage races and most monuments, and only getting a chance or two at a World Title if at all.

You can argue smaller races shouldn't count much, but excluding a guy like Cavendish by defnition doesn't seem like the way to go

Sprinters are punished because they are incredibly limited as cyclists, the only difference between one trick sprinters and low level domestiques is about 200m. I don't think they are punished at all, in fact they get far more chances to win than the average pro which is the only reason they make any of these lists.

Sorry, but I fail to see how wheelsucking your way through races and having your team shut down races is anything to be admired. To me, it is the very opposite of what racing is about and what greatness is about. Yes, there is technique, skill, bravery in the actual sprints, but that is why I compared it to NFL kickers or penalty takers, they require a certain skill-set and some people are better than others, but it is only in very specific circumstances. They simply do not belong with the greats of the sport who can compete in multiple race situations.

The fact that the likes of Cav and Cipo are ahead of LeMond and Fignon shows up this ranking system for what it is. Completely silly.

 

[Red Rick]

Sprinters are punished because they are incredibly limited as cyclists, the only difference between one trick sprinters and low level domestiques is about 200m. I don't think they are punished at all, in fact they get far more chances to win than the average pro which is the only reason they make any of these lists.

Sorry, but I fail to see how wheelsucking your way through races and having your team shut down races is anything to be admired. To me, it is the very opposite of what racing is about and what greatness is about. Yes, there is technique, skill, bravery in the actual sprints, but that is why I compared it to NFL kickers or penalty takers, they require a certain skill-set and some people are better than others, but it is only in very specific circumstances. They simply do not belong with the greats of the sport who can compete in multiple race situations.

The fact that the likes of Cav and Cipo are ahead of LeMond and Fignon shows up this ranking system for what it is. Completely silly.

Well they're probably the 2 greatest pure sprinters of all time vs 2 GC riders who barely crack the top 10 at their specialty if at all

 

[pmcg76]

They won around 150 Grand Tour stages combined, probably even more... If you think that's easy, go sit yourself at the end of a sprinting train, and try to win at least one stage!!!

Edit: And I don't even like sprinters ffs!

If sprinting is so difficult, why is it Sprinters nearly always have the most wins each season? How many times have Sprinters won 3/4 stages in a Tour over the last 25 years? How do non Sprinters fare in comparison?

I think the major achievement of the 21 Tour was Wout Van Aert winning a TT, sprint stage and mountain stage. I cannot remember any rider doing that in my 30+ years following the sport. Now that is an achievement to be admired.

 

[pmcg76]

Well they're probably the 2 greatest pure sprinters of all time vs 2 GC riders who barely crack the top 10 at their specialty if at all

Are you really saying that Cav and Cipo have a better palmares than LeMond and Fignon? I would bet if you asked Cav and Cipo if they would swap their results with LeMond and Fignon, they wouldn't even have to think about it.

 

[Parker]

If sprinting is so difficult, why is it Sprinters nearly always have the most wins each season? How many times have Sprinters won 3/4 stages in a Tour over the last 25 years? How do non Sprinters fare in comparison?

That's like saying in football, if being a striker is so difficult why are 3/4 goals scored by strikers. It's a role in the sport and a major one.