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BroDeal said:
On the other hand, the re-infusion of blood (the blue arrows) causes a drop in reticulocytes. Why? Because the cells that are being re-infused are "older" (they've been stored in a refrigerator!) and so the new blood, post infusion, has more red blood cells, but fewer of them are immature.
The Off-score is of interest because it would be able to pick up both withdrawal of blood (characterized by a rise in reticulocytes and a fall in Hb), as well as the re-infusion of blood (reticulocytes fall and Hb concentration rises).
In theory, someone could for example manipulate the Hb level independent of the ret% (or vice-versa), causing the off-score to remain relatively constant (remember that the equation takes (10 x Hb - sqrt(ret%)). So if both go up or down, the OFF score would potentially remain relatively unchanged.
The conclusion of this Pottgiesser paper, incidentally, is that the off-score had high sensitivity in detecting autologous blood transfusions - in 11 cyclists, it caught 8 during this simulated season at a probability level of 99%. At 99.9%, as you might expect from more stringent limits, it picked up 5 out of 11 doping athletes over the 'season'. The only false positive came from Hb in that one subject, not from the Off-score, which was recommended for future use in the biological passport model
This is what I am talking about, and I agree with you that 2-3 points breaking the 99% is more important than 1 point breaking the 99.9% rule. Analysis is more powerful when analyzed qualitatively than quantitatively, as the author says, but if they don't flag when 2 or 3 points break the 99% confidence levels we are going to let a lot of dopers through.Cobblestones said:...
As to Escarabajo's question, I think they use the 99.9% limit. Now, statistically speaking, finding two independent data points above the 99% limit (but below the 99.9% limit), when seen together, are statistically more significant than one datapoint above the 99.9% limit. But I don't know whether such a view is adopted by the UCI/WADA.
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Escarabajo said:The author does not mention if the athletes used for the study were trying to dilute or cover up the results or just were being careless; because that could drop the catching rate a lot more.
When you look at the graphs, with each testing, the confidence limits get a little bit tighter because the dataset becomes bigger and the true distribution of parameters can be pinned down more closely.
And I agree in particular with one point by Merckx. I would like a clear statement how long after a transfusion and/or withdrawal it is detectable.
Apparently they are now also targeting the withdrawal periods which are followed by low hemoglobin concentrations and high retic counts.
Cobblestones said:For the hormones, growth factors etc. there is a 'steroid profile' in the works (or maybe already in place) which does longitudinal testing of natural steroids (not clen or anything which is unnatural).
Cobblestones said:The same statistical technique is apparently applied to the steroid profile, although I have never seen a dataset published.
Cobblestones said:As to Escarabajo's question, I think they use the 99.9% limit. Now, statistically speaking, finding two independent data points above the 99% limit (but below the 99.9% limit), when seen together, are statistically more significant than one datapoint above the 99.9% limit. But I don't know whether such a view is adopted by the UCI/WADA.
How effective is saline at lowering Hb and how long does it last? There has to be a reason why HES was preferred before it was tested for.
The urinary steroid profile forms the steroid passport, growth factors the endocrine module of the passport. See papers by RI Holt in Pubmed.
Cobblestones said:I agree mostly with everything Merckx said.
For the hormones, growth factors etc. there is a 'steroid profile' in the works (or maybe already in place) which does longitudinal testing of natural steroids (not clen or anything which is unnatural).
lean said:- i think we'll see total hemaglobin mass added to the profile and probably much sooner than i originally thought. with that, it's likely we'll see a new and improved OFF-score for lack of a better term, based upon mass and retics which could really disrupt this transfusion circus.
Merckx index said:Yes, that would help a lot. That would take dilution off the table, and make transfusion almost as difficult to hide as withdrawal. Though again, as long as riders are doing both together, there still is virtually no way to catch them. Except when they transfuse before a major race, and there is a window of a day or more before they follow with a withdrawal. But even then, a hard race will have the effect of lowering somewhat the elevated parameters, and of course if it's a stage race, each stage will have that effect.
Merckx index said:Yes, that would help a lot. That would take dilution off the table, and make transfusion almost as difficult to hide as withdrawal. Though again, as long as riders are doing both together, there still is virtually no way to catch them. Except when they transfuse before a major race, and there is a window of a day or more before they follow with a withdrawal. But even then, a hard race will have the effect of lowering somewhat the elevated parameters, and of course if it's a stage race, each stage will have that effect.
Thanks. Good stuff, although I am a little confused since some of that information I could not understand.lean said:...
a couple of other issues worth mentioning:
- i think we'll see total hemaglobin mass added to the profile and probably much sooner than i originally thought. with that, it's likely we'll see a new and improved OFF-score for lack of a better term, based upon mass and retics which could really disrupt this transfusion circus.
link to everything you ever wanted to know about tHb-mass, enjoy!
another helpful link on the variability, or lack thereof, of tHb mass. ....
lean said:athletes would have to be on a never ending mistake free transfusion cycle even throughout the off season. tHb-mass only changes by +/- 3% all year. your values in January should be similar to those in July.
tHb-mass also remains pretty steady thru-out consecutive racing days.
tHb-mass is a game changer.
Merckx index said:Maybe. But LMG, you were the one who pointed out to me that riders could start in the off season with very small amounts of blood withdrawn/transfused, and work up. 3% of total blood volume is 150-200 ml., one could certainly begin with that or less. One could also get a significant PE effect with volumes on that order.
If it is a game-changer, I think it will catch riders not during the off-season, but when they transfuse before a major race or GT stage, without an immediately preceding withdrawal. I think that's when they're most vulnerable.
But also keep in mind that riders are strongly opposed to this CO test, they claim, correctly or not, that it may be detrimental to their performance. This test has been around for a long time, I think they need a better one.
Escarabajo said:Thanks. Good stuff, although I am a little confused since some of that information I could not understand.
This test was discussed in this forum before here:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=3479
In my ignorant opinion it looks like they are going for the small transfusions per a 3 week period. maybe >6 times per GT. Logistically it looks like very difficult to do but the top fish can always pay these expensive programs. I say this because at the end of the presentation it says that the HB mass test is less effective wit less amount of blood infusion.
Maybe if we combine the whole array of tests like the blood passport + Plastisizer test + HB Mass test we get a more certain probability of catching who is doping during a GT.
lean said:that's a good thread begun by Krebs Cycle and there were some great questions, many of them are answered or have begun to be answered in my first link. i think i know who KC is IRL (the clinic buzzword this week) and he's very credible.
Escarabajo said:
lean said:we're merely adding mass to the passport as a more reliable measure.
athletepassport said:the issue is that riders cannot be forced to breath carbon monoxide. And to the best of my knowledge there is no other reliable method to measure the mass of hemoglobin.
lean said:in larger amounts carbon monoxide is poisonous and potentally deadly but it's around us in small amounts everyday, it's a small byproduct of our own metabolism and is produced by industry and automotive engines. the amts used here are innocuous and a more thorough explanation supported by data is found in my first link.
there are some small implications immediately following the analysis but there's no reason not to test shortly after the completion of an athletic event. it's no more invasive than asking for a blood or urine sample and the process takes less than 15 min.