Sebastian Salas finally suspended

D-Queued said:
In one of the poorest kept secrets in Canadian cycling, Sebastian Salas, a former ToC KOM champ, has been supended for two years with effectivity starting last August.

Dave.

Seems like he was bounced for showing up late to a test or is there more to this case?

I think Kelly Benefit have a reputation as a clean team so pity for them.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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I'm waiting to hear his side of the story. Apparently it was a delayed sample after the Gastown Grand Prix that was "diluted", though nobody has explained what diluted means. I guess it could mean that he hid for a while and drank as much water as possible to mask EPO or drop hematocrit...

However... he's said that there's more to the story. And it certainly sounds like it since nobody seems to know what happened. There's been rumors surrounding Sebastian for some time, but other than his climbing abilities, I've never heard anything concrete. A number of friends and teammates are standing by him, while an equal or greater number are happy he got caught.

Frankly, I find this one confusing.

John Swanson
 
Are Steve Bauer and Louis Garneau going to sweep this one under the carpet like the last EPO positives?

Did ANYONE in Canadian cycling give the "look them in the eyes and ask if they are doping" test to Salas? It has worked so well in the past!

RaceRadio tweeted the rumor that it was a failed attempt to dilute/delay the urine sample. I'm inclined to believe it because it fits the published report.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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D-Queued said:
In one of the poorest kept secrets in Canadian cycling, Sebastian Salas, a former ToC KOM champ, has been supended for two years with effectivity starting last August.

Dave.
seems very weird. he hasn;t tested positive
 
ScienceIsCool said:
I'm waiting to hear his side of the story. Apparently it was a delayed sample after the Gastown Grand Prix that was "diluted", though nobody has explained what diluted means. I guess it could mean that he hid for a while and drank as much water as possible to mask EPO or drop hematocrit...

However... he's said that there's more to the story. And it certainly sounds like it since nobody seems to know what happened. There's been rumors surrounding Sebastian for some time, but other than his climbing abilities, I've never heard anything concrete. A number of friends and teammates are standing by him, while an equal or greater number are happy he got caught.

Frankly, I find this one confusing.

John Swanson
His side of the story was that he fought it.

The original statement/rumor was simply that he had missed a doping control.

He was then put on 'injured reserve', but that seemed pretty fishy given how fast he was romping around the neighborhood and a number of locals were pretty po'd.

However, WADA rules allow more than one missed control before a suspension.

The wording in the suspension, "tampering with the doping control" suggests something a bit more onerous.

Given the Canadian precedents for missing a control, such as Genevieve Jeanson and her 'emotionally distraught state brought on by being asked for a sample', we can either anticipate that CCES has become a little less flexible on this.

Alternately, knowing that WADA allows leniency, the more logical conclusion is that Salas, with more than one unbelievable :)rolleyes:) performance, was actively trying to dilute or alter his sample (whizinator, catheter, protease powder, etc.)

And, yes, this latest example of BC-based cycling cheaters (Chris Sheppard, Ryder Hesjedal, Seamus McGrath, Kirk O'Bee...), is/was a bummer for Optum who rank high on my list for credible anti-doping stance.

Dave.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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D-Queued said:
His side of the story was that he fought it.

The original statement/rumor was simply that he had missed a doping control.

He was then put on 'injured reserve', but that seemed pretty fishy given how fast he was romping around the neighborhood and a number of locals were pretty po'd.

However, WADA rules allow more than one missed control before a suspension.

The wording in the suspension, "tampering with the doping control" suggests something a bit more onerous.

Given the Canadian precedents for missing a control, such as Genevieve Jeanson and her 'emotionally distraught state brought on by being asked for a sample', we can either anticipate that CCES has become a little less flexible on this.

Alternately, knowing that WADA allows leniency, the more logical conclusion is that Salas, with more than one unbelievable :)rolleyes:) performance, was actively trying to dilute or alter his sample (whizinator, catheter, protease powder, etc.)

And, yes, this latest example of BC-based cycling cheaters (Chris Sheppard, Ryder Hesjedal, Seamus McGrath, Kirk O'Bee...), is/was a bummer for Optum who rank high on my list for credible anti-doping stance.

Dave.
so basically you know nothing about this as well
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Kirk O'Bee was hilarious wasn't he? I remember a cold February day, doing hill repeats out at UBC at the same time he was. The "who the f*ck are you" looks he gave me were priceless.

I'm guessing that every locale with a healthy cycling scene has their share of guys that go full alien in the space of two to three months. Everyone knows they're spending more on PED's than meals, but what can you do? There's also a fair number of outstanding natural talents that live here too - speculating solely on performance gets you nowhere, so... <shrug>

John Swanson
 
Ryo Hazuki said:
so basically you know nothing about this as well
What do you want me to say?

I have only posted what is public, but have known about this since August.

You may not believe this, but I didn't go out of my way to find out about this.

A fellow cyclist came up to me and simply said, 'Salas is a doper'.

I thought he was joking at first. My response, with a laugh, was, "Of course, aren't they all?"

He then corrected me.

Now, what do you know?

Dave.
 
d-queued said:
his side of the story was that he fought it.

The original statement/rumor was simply that he had missed a doping control.

He was then put on 'injured reserve', but that seemed pretty fishy given how fast he was romping around the neighborhood and a number of locals were pretty po'd.

However, wada rules allow more than one missed control before a suspension.

The wording in the suspension, "tampering with the doping control" suggests something a bit more onerous.

Given the canadian precedents for missing a control, such as genevieve jeanson and her 'emotionally distraught state brought on by being asked for a sample', we can either anticipate that cces has become a little less flexible on this.

Alternately, knowing that wada allows leniency, the more logical conclusion is that salas, with more than one unbelievable :)rolleyes:) performance, was actively trying to dilute or alter his sample (whizinator, catheter, protease powder, etc.)

and, yes, this latest example of bc-based cycling cheaters (chris sheppard, ryder hesjedal, seamus mcgrath, kirk o'bee...), is/was a bummer for optum who rank high on my list for credible anti-doping stance.

Dave.
ds?
................
 
Ripper said:
ds?
................
Sorry, Ripper, but I must be very thick today as you have lost me here.

ScienceIsCool said:
Kirk O'Bee was hilarious wasn't he? I remember a cold February day, doing hill repeats out at UBC at the same time he was. The "who the f*ck are you" looks he gave me were priceless.

I'm guessing that every locale with a healthy cycling scene has their share of guys that go full alien in the space of two to three months. Everyone knows they're spending more on PED's than meals, but what can you do? There's also a fair number of outstanding natural talents that live here too - speculating solely on performance gets you nowhere, so... <shrug>

John Swanson
Hi John,

I'm searching for the right wording/quote, but riding through Richmond one day, Kirk confided that he had considered riding for Canada (and switching from the US) as it was somehow 'better' here.

I always thought Kirk seemed like a nice enough guy. However, in 20/20 hindsight 'better' or 'nicer' or 'easier' could clearly have two meanings even if Kirk didn't necessarily mean it that way.

Thus, coming back to Salas (and the Vancouver Island dopers), there does seem to be a perception amongst these pros that this is a dopers haven. And, there is a definite perception locally that doping would and could never ever happen here. Not sure which I find more upsetting.

The truth will come out about how Salas attempted to tamper with the doping control.

From what I understand, through second-hand info of course, it is worse than people think. In fact, if true, it is surprising that it was only a two year ban.

One particularly odd part of the local story was that the local paper covered it in the Front section (i.e. local news), and not the Sports Section. They chose to highlight Salas as a dominant force on a local recreational trail run.

Forget that a professional athlete was committing a fraud in a major local event with a very large purse supported by major sponsors and civic authorities.

Nope. What they felt was most newsworthy was that he holds the record on a recreational trail run.

Go figure.

Dave.
 
D-Queued said:
Sorry, Ripper, but I must be very thick today as you have lost me here.



Hi John,

I'm searching for the right wording/quote, but riding through Richmond one day, Kirk confided that he had considered riding for Canada (and switching from the US) as it was somehow 'better' here.

I always thought Kirk seemed like a nice enough guy. However, in 20/20 hindsight 'better' or 'nicer' or 'easier' could clearly have two meanings even if Kirk didn't necessarily mean it that way.

Thus, coming back to Salas (and the Vancouver Island dopers), there does seem to be a perception amongst these pros that this is a dopers haven. And, there is a definite perception locally that doping would and could never ever happen here. Not sure which I find more upsetting.

The truth will come out about how Salas attempted to tamper with the doping control.

From what I understand, through second-hand info of course, it is worse than people think. In fact, if true, it is surprising that it was only a two year ban.

One particularly odd part of the local story was that the local paper covered it in the Front section (i.e. local news), and not the Sports Section. They chose to highlight Salas as a dominant force on a local recreational trail run.

Forget that a professional athlete was committing a fraud in a major local event with a very large purse supported by major sponsors and civic authorities.

Nope. What they felt was most newsworthy was that he holds the record on a recreational trail run.

Go figure.

Dave.
The amount of focus on the Grouse Grind by the local press is over the top. "Will the record be taken away????" Yup, that's the real story here :rolleyes: Lots of local twitter tweets ramping up the vitriol as well ...

Ah, Kirk. Whatever happened to him?

Of course, the perception of this being a 'dopers haven' does not take into account the number of pros that move to this neck of the woods because the weather makes it a better training base than, say Edmonton (and a national training centre is in Victoria).
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Well, here's Sebastian's side of the story: http://bc.ctvnews.ca/grouse-grind-record-holder-banned-from-cycling-claims-misunderstanding-1.1649751

And note that John Tolkamp (president of Cycling Canada) is a very conservative person. When he says the sample was very likely tampered with, you can be sure it was really messed up. And that's why he wasn't just charged with a missed sample, which also would've netted him two years.

Also, Sebastian's explanation doesn't pass the smell test. Anyone with kids knows that if you're pregnant wife needs your attention badly enough for you to blow off a drug test, you aren't going to have dealt with it in less than 90 minutes...

John Swanson
 
ScienceIsCool said:
Well, here's Sebastian's side of the story: http://bc.ctvnews.ca/grouse-grind-record-holder-banned-from-cycling-claims-misunderstanding-1.1649751

And note that John Tolkamp (president of Cycling Canada) is a very conservative person. When he says the sample was very likely tampered with, you can be sure it was really messed up. And that's why he wasn't just charged with a missed sample, which also would've netted him two years.
^^ This.

FWIW, I have rarely seen a doping sanction that was undeserved. And it is becoming rarer (and WADA appears pretty conservative). This is a bit off topic, but the only oddities seem to be when one races far afield in areas of known contamination - obviously some clen cases come to mind. In these situations, the result is still the result, but I can appreciate the means by which such substances can enter the body (read another way - accidental ingestion of a prohibited substance becomes increasingly unlikely in a country like Canada.
 
The side story is the event promoter's inaction.

While banned from most sports for two years, Salas’ Grouse Grind records from 2009 and 2010 will stand, according to Grouse Mountain spokesperson Jacqueline Blackwell.

“Both of these records occurred several years before he was sanctioned by the Canadian Center for Ethics in Sport,” she said by email.


This is a few degrees removed from the owners of the Leadville 100 Mountain Bike event who refuse to vacate the first-place results of a few dopers who admitted to doping during the event.

It's open season for oxygen vector doping at the Grouse Grind and Leadville races.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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True, but the Grouse Grind is a local trail/mountain climb that can only be done on foot. It's also non-sanctioned and can be attempted by anyone any time the trail is open. You can submit your time via a timing chip and readers at the start and end of the climb. So nothing to do with cycling and/or any other sanctioned sport. It's more of a prestige thing - so yeah, it's open season for anyone wanting to dope.

Grouse Grind: http://www.grousemountain.com/grousegrind

It's 853 meters of elevation gain in 2.9 kilometers of trail for an average of ~20 degrees or 30%. Note that the bottom quarter is relatively flat and can be jogged. Also, check the stats and see how insanely fast some people are. My best time is 41 minutes and I obviously suck. Sebastian's time of 23 minutes is insane. That's 7.5 km/hr up a 30% incline. On foot. Over obstacles like rocks and roots.

John Swanson
 
ScienceIsCool said:
True, but the Grouse Grind is a local trail/mountain climb that can only be done on foot. It's also non-sanctioned and can be attempted by anyone any time the trail is open. You can submit your time via a timing chip and readers at the start and end of the climb.
Thanks for the details.
 
Aug 17, 2009
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Agreed, what was said does not pass the smell test, all of it including the pregnancy excuse. The simple fact is that if he thought he was OK to be racing that day then he had the extra 30 minutes for doping control.

John Tolkamp is doing a great job managing this.

I don't think Sebastian realized the front page stink that would be released after accepting the ban and appears to be back tracking. I suspect that will add up to nothing, the goose is cooked.
 
DirtyWorks said:
The side story is the event promoter's inaction.

While banned from most sports for two years, Salas’ Grouse Grind records from 2009 and 2010 will stand, according to Grouse Mountain spokesperson Jacqueline Blackwell.

“Both of these records occurred several years before he was sanctioned by the Canadian Center for Ethics in Sport,” she said by email.


This is a few degrees removed from the owners of the Leadville 100 Mountain Bike event who refuse to vacate the first-place results of a few dopers who admitted to doping during the event.

It's open season for oxygen vector doping at the Grouse Grind and Leadville races.
Well, TBH here there is a significant difference between being banned starting years after an event and doping during an event. Even if the GG were a UCI Pro Race, it would be difficult to ban those results.
 
cathulu said:
Agreed, what was said does not pass the smell test, all of it including the pregnancy excuse. The simple fact is that if he thought he was OK to be racing that day then he had the extra 30 minutes for doping control.

John Tolkamp is doing a great job managing this.

I don't think Sebastian realized the front page stink that would be released after accepting the ban and appears to be back tracking. I suspect that will add up to nothing, the goose is cooked.
Hi Cathulu,

Do you have a link on what John/Cycling Canada is doing?

This is not to criticize either. Personally, I like John.

But, it isn't clear what they are doing in this situation. Yes, they did issue a press release, and John was interviewed:

While Salas’ statement may have appeared like a weak explanation, he may be right. The infraction of tampering has more to it than what it connotes. Even Cycling Canada Cyclisme’s president John Tolkamp seemed to have a particular tampering in mind when he spoke to CTV.

“Something was wrong. It just couldn’t be tested, which confirms that it had been tampered with,” said Tolkamp in the same CTV report. While Tolkamp’s comment isn’t given the proper context, it seems he’s speaking about a physical sample.

“Is it possible that could have been done by accident?” the interview asked.

“Very, very unlikely. And [Salas has] admitted to it,” responded Tolkamp.


From that interview/statement, however, it appears that he knows less than I do, which is surprising and/or hard to believe.

John is bright and a good guy. He is also a very active and successful cyclist himself. He did us all a big favor by supporting Cookson, and has to be very sensitive to the mess that professional cycling has been in.

Given the little that I know about doping within the Canadian cycling community (e.g. have known about Ryder for over half a decade, have details on Salas), most of which was volunteered in the same circle of cyclists that John hangs out with, John must know at least as much as I do.

Thus, he must have known Ryder's history, for example. And, it would have been impossible for an elite cyclist in Vancouver to not wonder why Salas was tearing up the asphalt but not racing ever since Gastown - even if nobody said anything to him.

Thus, can you provide a link? Because I am curious about what you think John/Cycling Canada are doing here.

Dave.
 
Aug 17, 2009
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Sorry I don't have a link. He is new as the Pres and I am supporting him, that's all. I think he presented himself well on TV and was clear on Mr. Salas' violation. It was later a bit screwed-up in that John said too much and had to back track a bit regarding the physical manipulation part. Turns out he was on the wrong script. However he is moving in the right direction as far as I am concerned and John will get better as time goes by in his role as president.

CCES was not going to rely on any physical manipulation of the sample, but only on the avoidance. Something was screwed up with the sample and no result was reported as I understand it. We don't know what or how that was caused, and nobody is prepared to say anything more, despite what John leaked. You imply you know something about the sample, but you haven't said anything concrete about it either.

Per CCES:
The athlete received an anti-doping rule violation for Tampering. Pursuant to the CADP, a Tampering violation can result when an athlete subverts any part of the doping control process. Tampering is not restricted to the manipulation of an athlete’s sample. Mr. Salas’ violation of Tampering involved, and the CCES was prepared to prove, (i) that the athlete avoided formal notification after he knew he was selected for doping control and sample collection and unilaterally decided to leave the event venue, and (ii) the athlete remained unchaperoned for about two hours after he knew he was selected for doping control and prior to providing a urine sample.
 
I think it is pretty easy for even the uninformed to tell that there was something going on with the sample as well and if the matter had gone to arbitration, it would have been messier, so to speak.
 
cathulu said:
Sorry I don't have a link. He is new as the Pres and I am supporting him, that's all. I think he presented himself well on TV and was clear on Mr. Salas' violation. It was later a bit screwed-up in that John said too much and had to back track a bit regarding the physical manipulation part. Turns out he was on the wrong script. However he is moving in the right direction as far as I am concerned and John will get better as time goes by in his role as president.

CCES was not going to rely on any physical manipulation of the sample, but only on the avoidance. Something was screwed up with the sample and no result was reported as I understand it. We don't know what or how that was caused, and nobody is prepared to say anything more, despite what John leaked. You imply you know something about the sample, but you haven't said anything concrete about it either.

Per CCES:
The athlete received an anti-doping rule violation for Tampering. Pursuant to the CADP, a Tampering violation can result when an athlete subverts any part of the doping control process. Tampering is not restricted to the manipulation of an athlete’s sample. Mr. Salas’ violation of Tampering involved (But may not have been limited to), and the CCES was prepared to prove, (i) that the athlete avoided formal notification after he knew he was selected for doping control and sample collection and unilaterally decided to leave the event venue, and (ii) the athlete remained unchaperoned for about two hours after he knew he was selected for doping control and prior to providing a urine sample.
Note the bolded parts, including my added bit in parens.

Now you know what I know.

Dave.
 

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