Teams & Riders Sepp Kuss is the next Sepp Kuss thread

[Luthor]

3'06 down.

Is that an all out Kuss ITT?

I don't think so. Unless he blew himself up on the flat, his climbing time is not great.

 

[shalgo]

In the TT Kuss was caught by De la Cruz at the foot of the climb and then apparently just rode the entire climb about five seconds behind De la Cruz. You can see their relative positions at the start of the climb and finish below. I therefore doubt Kuss was going all out on the climb.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

So he wants to lead the team in Pais Vasco, Catalunya or the Vuelta. Should be interesting.

 

[bajbar]

So he wants to lead the team in Pais Vasco, Catalunya or the Vuelta. Should be interesting.

Catalunya would be most suited to him. Usually there is no TT, it is decided on the two or three MTFs and that is it. Pais Vasco usually has a TT, the action happens on all stages and I think Primož will want to race (and win) it. And I think he is better suited to those short steep punchy climbs than Kuss. Vuelta really always depends on how the season goes before that. If Jumbo win the Tour next year, Kuss can get his chance to lead. But if they have to save their GT season there, simmilar to this year, the leader of the team will be the rider with the highest chance of winning the race. Which Kuss is not so far.

He is a very good climber, on some days the best in the world. But to lead a team in a three week race you need consistency. And Kuss has quite a lot of "off" days. Days where he should be there, even as a helper, but he simply is not. Thinking back to the Tour this year, where he was in an amazing form. He was one of the best on Loze, great on Colombiere and Puy Mary, but also sub-par on stage 2, dropped early on Bales... It is easy to be the best climber when you can select days when you will put your effort in. But when you have to be focused for 21 days it gets more difficult. He already got that "co-leader" status this year in La Vuelta when Tom dropped time on stages 1 and 2. But then Formigal happened. Bennet came back to the group with Roglič, Kuss did not. One mistake and 10 minutes lost.

 

[Bolder]

Catalunya would be most suited to him. Usually there is no TT, it is decided on the two or three MTFs and that is it. Pais Vasco usually has a TT, the action happens on all stages and I think Primož will want to race (and win) it. And I think he is better suited to those short steep punchy climbs than Kuss. Vuelta really always depends on how the season goes before that. If Jumbo win the Tour next year, Kuss can get his chance to lead. But if they have to save their GT season there, simmilar to this year, the leader of the team will be the rider with the highest chance of winning the race. Which Kuss is not so far.

He is a very good climber, on some days the best in the world. But to lead a team in a three week race you need consistency. And Kuss has quite a lot of "off" days. Days where he should be there, even as a helper, but he simply is not. Thinking back to the Tour this year, where he was in an amazing form. He was one of the best on Loze, great on Colombiere and Puy Mary, but also sub-par on stage 2, dropped early on Bales... It is easy to be the best climber when you can select days when you will put your effort in. But when you have to be focused for 21 days it gets more difficult. He already got that "co-leader" status this year in La Vuelta when Tom dropped time on stages 1 and 2. But then Formigal happened. Bennet came back to the group with Roglič, Kuss did not. One mistake and 10 minutes lost.

I agree, although he's shown at smaller races like Utah that he can take GC.

I really think he could be a serious GC contender. He seems to have the physiology to be an all-rounder -- might need to put on 2-3kg of muscle, but I don't think that would hurt his climbing that much, and he might even become more of a diesel climber rather than a jackrabbit.

He can learn to be a decent TT'er -- as noted above, there really isn't enough data where he's gone all-out in an ITT to know one way or the other.

I guess if TGH can win a GT, certainly Sepp Kuss can.

 

[hayneplane]

He could contend in Catalunya with no time bonuses and no ITT so one big sustained attack might create enough gap to take the GC. Pais Vasco is a perfect race for Roglic who already has a great record there and will surely go again as leader ahead of the Ardennes classics.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I agree, although he's shown at smaller races like Utah that he can take GC.

I really think he could be a serious GC contender. He seems to have the physiology to be an all-rounder -- might need to put on 2-3kg of muscle, but I don't think that would hurt his climbing that much, and he might even become more of a diesel climber rather than a jackrabbit.

He can learn to be a decent TT'er -- as noted above, there really isn't enough data where he's gone all-out in an ITT to know one way or the other.

I guess if TGH can win a GT, certainly Sepp Kuss can.

I think Kuss and Hart are completely different riders and Hart winning the Giro says nothing about Kuss. In order to win a GT you need the one thing Kuss consistently lacks, consistency. To gain that, is a lot harder than it is to gain 2kg of muscle or losing some fat. Hart doesn't have a problem with consistency, but he's just not (been) a top tier GC rider. He was simply lucky his leader and main competitors got taken out.

Regarding his TT ability, i think it's a bit too easy to say he never really tried to go all out. If he really has GC ambition he should have tried that just to know where exactly his ITT level is at compared to the competition. Else it would simply be sign of lack of ambition imho. It's also a bit too easy to expect that "he can learn to be a decent TT'er". How many climbers haven't we thought that of? And it's one thing to be able to do a good TT, and another thing to do it, again, consistently. Look at Lopez, he had been training a lot on his TT bike, and in Algarve he did an insane TT for him. Same time as Schachmann. And then came the TDF and his TT was nowhere.

I'm also not yet convinced that he can keep his level at the end of a hard stage. I've mentioned this before, but together with Sosa and Gaudu, he was one of the riders that got blown away on Picon Blanco, because the previous 40km was raced hard. The stage two days later was not raced hard until the actual climb, and together with Sosa & Gaudu, he was suddenly one of the better climbers.

One thing is for sure, it will be interesting either way. I think we all are curious about what exactly he is capable of.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I'm also not yet convinced that he can keep his level at the end of a hard stage. I've mentioned this before, but together with Sosa and Gaudu, he was one of the riders that got blown away on Picon Blanco, because the previous 40km was raced hard. The stage two days later was not raced hard until the actual climb, and together with Sosa & Gaudu, he was suddenly one of the better climbers.

That's why he's talking about the Vuelta, since it's the race of_______/avier Guillén.

I'm more curious about what races he won't be part of, since he has proven to be the biggest impediment cycling has to GC excitement in 2020. Yet no matter how imperious he looks, unflappable and ominous, Jumbo's absurd "we must have a leader, a pacer, and somebody to serve as a deterrent" strategy means they never actually use his strength to gain any advantage, and we actually found that because he is so inconsistent, when people actually bother to attack him, he disappeared quite quickly a couple of times. If he's serving as the leader, I'm not sure so many people are going to be as keen to let the third best Jumbo rider dictate tempo as when it's Rogla being protected, because they won't fear Seppy's ITT, and they'll know he can be broken and crack in a way we don't really see from Rogla, plus he's unlikely to have somebody as strong as, well, Sepp Kuss sitting in reserve not expending any energy to protect himself, meaning there will be more incentive for the opposition to spend that energy finding out if this is one of Sepp's 10/10 days or one of his 1/10 days.

 

[BlueRoads]

It might actually become interesting how well Jumbo will deal with upcoming ambitions by their domestiques.

 

[Bolder]

I think Kuss and Hart are completely different riders and Hart winning the Giro says nothing about Kuss. In order to win a GT you need the one thing Kuss consistently lacks, consistency. To gain that, is a lot harder than it is to gain 2kg of muscle or losing some fat. Hart doesn't have a problem with consistency, but he's just not (been) a top tier GC rider. He was simply lucky his leader and main competitors got taken out.

Maybe. It's true that Hart has been tapped as a stage race GC contender from the beginning. But they are almost exactly the same aize and age and have gone head to head a few times, I think. Hart beat Kuss by 3 minutes on GC in the Tour of the Gila in 2016, at least.

I still think that we just don't know what Kuss is capable of, so I for one feel comfortable projecting greatness on him!!

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Maybe. It's true that Hart has been tapped as a stage race GC contender from the beginning. But they are almost exactly the same aize and age and have gone head to head a few times, I think. Hart beat Kuss by 3 minutes on GC in the Tour of the Gila in 2016, at least.

I still think that we just don't know what Kuss is capable of, so I for one feel comfortable projecting greatness on him!!

He's won a stage in the Vuelta and Dauphiné, plenty more will follow obviously. I'm just not convinced a GT is in the cards for him.
I also know plenty of Colombians the same age and size as Quintana, who might have beaten him at some point, who never won a GT ;-)
It doesn't matter either way. Had Hart completely bonked in the Giro, it wouldn't mean anything regarding Kuss his chances as a GC rider either.

Head to head for GC's: https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/sepp-kuss/head-to-head/start//tao-geoghegan-hart

Sepp Kuss	0/5 0% Race 5/5 100%	Tao Geoghegan Hart
43​	#1 Amgen Tour of California ('18)​	5​
14​	#2 Silver City's Tour of the Gila ('16)​	6​
103​	#3 Tour de l'Avenir ('16)​	6​
28​	#4 Amgen Tour of California ('17)​	8​
36​	#5 Silver City's Tour of the Gila ('15)​	8​

 

[Bolder]

He's won a stage in the Vuelta and Dauphiné, plenty more will follow obviously. I'm just not convinced a GT is in the cards for him.
I also know plenty of Colombians the same age and size as Quintana, who might have beaten him at some point, who never won a GT ;-)
It doesn't matter either way. Had Hart completely bonked in the Giro, it wouldn't mean anything regarding Kuss his chances as a GC rider either.

Head to head for GC's: https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/sepp-kuss/head-to-head/start//tao-geoghegan-hart

Sepp Kuss	0/5 0% Race 5/5 100%	Tao Geoghegan Hart
43​	#1 Amgen Tour of California ('18)​	5​
14​	#2 Silver City's Tour of the Gila ('16)​	6​
103​	#3 Tour de l'Avenir ('16)​	6​
28​	#4 Amgen Tour of California ('17)​	8​
36​	#5 Silver City's Tour of the Gila ('15)​	8​

Don’t go using logic on me!

 

[Red Rick]

It might actually become interesting how well Jumbo will deal with upcoming ambitions by their domestiques.

Roglic/Dumoulin to Tour. Kruijswijk to Giro. Kuss Tour/Vuelta. Groenewegen Giro/Vuelta.

 

[The GCW]

Many of Us, here are sick. The dilemma of cycling entered into Our bloodstream. -

Incurable. Chronic. & Some have NBTD.

However, let's help lookout for Kuss. Let Us not set too high a bar and make too much room for the then inevitable disappointment.

Kuss is already awesome. Let Him continue to be His awesome self. Let Us not set Our goals for Ourselves and then, maybe, unhappy.

That's sometimes the kind of people We are. Sometimes, attempting to predict, makes life difficult for the predicted.

If Kuss has another season like He just had, We would all be pleased. Let's sit back and simply enjoy the show and set Kuss up for Our pleasure.

I'm not hoping He wins a Grand. Leads a Grand and if He does give Him room for Our love. Let Him continue to make Us happy.

Already great, never to be less than great. Our dream.

From the Dillon area,

To Sepp Kuss

 

[will-10]

Roglic/Dumoulin to Tour. Kruijswijk to Giro. Kuss Tour/Vuelta. Groenewegen Giro/Vuelta.

I think they will do at least one more year of a full A squad at the Tour without spreading their talent too thinly, particularly bearing in mind Ineos' signings and probable "all-in" at the Tour.

Roglic, Tom, Kruiswijk, Kuss, Van Aert, Martin, Bennett, +1

 

[Libertine Seguros]

However, let's help lookout for Kuss. Let Us not set too high a bar and make too much room for the then inevitable disappointment.

Sepp Kuss already is inevitable disappointment.

If Kuss has another season like He just had, We would all be pleased. Let's sit back and simply enjoy the show and set Kuss up for Our pleasure.

The problem is, the show is much easier to enjoy when Sepp isn't part of it. Unless Addy Engels completely changes his utilisation of Sepp, and Sepp completely changes his attitude, there will be no show to enjoy from him.

The guy has a hell of a lot of potential, but the way Jumbo use him is both counter to getting the best out of his abilities, counter to maximising their advantages in the race, and counter to providing any kind of spectacle that might attract fans to become invested in him. Something needs to change in the Jumbo team car if we want to see Sepp reach anything like his actual potential, let alone the lofty expectations fans sometimes set.

 

[tobydawq]

But if they will give him personal chances in some races, doesn't the problem disappear then (in those races)? Or will you find a contrived way to maintain the narrative that he is somehow the worst thing ever to happen to pro cycling?

I don't really see what was so terribly anti-entertaining about the way he was riding in the first part of the Vuelta, for example

 

[Libertine Seguros]

But if they will give him personal chances in some races, doesn't the problem disappear then (in those races)? Or will you find a contrived way to maintain the narrative that he is somehow the worst thing ever to happen to pro cycling?

I don't really see what was so terribly anti-entertaining about the way he was riding in the first part of the Vuelta, for example

Theoretically so, he was far more entertaining in the Dauphiné than he was in either Grand Tour. Hopefully they do give him some opportunities of his own, I have my fears Addy's going to join him at the hip to Roglič because Dumoulin and van Aert will probably be given the outside opportunities first ahead of Kuss. I know he's said about which races he wants to lead and feels he deserves a chance at, but Jumbo are swiftly going to suffer from a "too many chiefs, not enough Indians" problem and because of his skillset being so much less all-round than those three he's probably going to be back of the queue. And as soon as Formigal happened, they were right back to using him in his customary role of sitting there doing nothing but stop any racing happening while the third best Jumbo rider dictates tempo.

 

[Red Rick]

Theoretically so, he was far more entertaining in the Dauphiné than he was in either Grand Tour. Hopefully they do give him some opportunities of his own, I have my fears Addy's going to join him at the hip to Roglič because Dumoulin and van Aert will probably be given the outside opportunities first ahead of Kuss. I know he's said about which races he wants to lead and feels he deserves a chance at, but Jumbo are swiftly going to suffer from a "too many chiefs, not enough Indians" problem and because of his skillset being so much less all-round than those three he's probably going to be back of the queue. And as soon as Formigal happened, they were right back to using him in his customary role of sitting there doing nothing but stop any racing happening while the third best Jumbo rider dictates tempo.

Kuss riding is much more a function of Roglic and his rivals than of himself. It also didn't help that Dumoulin wasn't in top form, otherwise Kuss would definitely be used before Dumoulin. In the Tour, Roglic thought he'd easily win the Tour in the ITT, Pogacar knew he would win in the ITT. It isn't a novelty tactic. Sky basically used to do this with Nieve, Poels, Porte, or Thomas all the time and the difference was that back then the rival GC rider would actually try to attack Froome at some point.

Kuss isn't the reason everyone waited till the final 2km of the Angliru. Kuss isn't the reason Carapaz attacked too late on Covatilla.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Not really, because Sky actually ripped tempo to try to drop people. Jumbo seem content to ride in a group of 15 all the way to the line while keeping Kuss in reserve.

 

[will-10]

Not really, because Sky actually ripped tempo to try to drop people. Jumbo seem content to ride in a group of 15 all the way to the line while keeping Kuss in reserve.

Why wouldn't they be if no-one dares to take them on?
Roglic is rarely the best out-and-out climber, but he is often the quickest once there's say 10 guys left. The 'luxury' of saving Kuss is purely down to Roglic being vulnerable if they went full Sky-train, ripped it to 5 guys & left Roglic on his own.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Kuss try to win a Giro from behind in a high-altitude 3rd week. But I do find it weird seeing people complain on here re: Jumbo strangling a Tour with one hand, rather than both a la Sky. Is either a good outcome, really?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Why wouldn't they be if no-one dares to take them on?
Roglic is rarely the best out-and-out climber, but he is often the quickest once there's say 10 guys left. The 'luxury' of saving Kuss is purely down to Roglic being vulnerable if they went full Sky-train, ripped it to 5 guys & left Roglic on his own.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Kuss try to win a Giro from behind in a high-altitude 3rd week. But I do find it weird seeing people complain on here re: Jumbo strangling a Tour with one hand, rather than both a la Sky. Is either a good outcome, really?

No, but at least Sky strangle the race by showing you they were that strong. Jumbo just imply they are that strong and don't try to drop anybody. The role Engels has developed for Kuss is just to sit there looking strong but not actually doing anything to help the team actually gain any time. Sky stop people from attacking by riding a tempo it's impossible to attack. Jumbo ride at the pace of their third best rider and scare people off attacking by saying "look how strong we are! Look!". At least with the Sky train you can put the camera on the back of the group and watch people being dropped. In stages like Grand-Colombier there was literally nothing to watch because Tom Dumoulin dropped everybody he was going to drop, and then they rode in formation and gave Kuss the day off.

And the other 'at least' thing about Sky is that they actually won the race in the end. The end only justifies the means if the end is successful.

 

[will-10]

No, but at least Sky strangle the race by showing you they were that strong. Jumbo just imply they are that strong and don't try to drop anybody. The role Engels has developed for Kuss is just to sit there looking strong but not actually doing anything to help the team actually gain any time. Sky stop people from attacking by riding a tempo it's impossible to attack. Jumbo ride at the pace of their third best rider and scare people off attacking by saying "look how strong we are! Look!". At least with the Sky train you can put the camera on the back of the group and watch people being dropped. In stages like Grand-Colombier there was literally nothing to watch because Tom Dumoulin dropped everybody he was going to drop, and then they rode in formation and gave Kuss the day off.

And the other 'at least' thing about Sky is that they actually won the race in the end. The end only justifies the means if the end is successful.

Again I put that more on their rivals than Jumbo. We saw once or twice at the TdF and the Vuelta that having the balls to attack their train they can at least be derailed. I'm certainly curious to see how Ineos in particular tackle that at the Tour next year, if they do indeed go in multiple leaders.

 

[Red Rick]

No, but at least Sky strangle the race by showing you they were that strong. Jumbo just imply they are that strong and don't try to drop anybody. The role Engels has developed for Kuss is just to sit there looking strong but not actually doing anything to help the team actually gain any time. Sky stop people from attacking by riding a tempo it's impossible to attack. Jumbo ride at the pace of their third best rider and scare people off attacking by saying "look how strong we are! Look!". At least with the Sky train you can put the camera on the back of the group and watch people being dropped. In stages like Grand-Colombier there was literally nothing to watch because Tom Dumoulin dropped everybody he was going to drop, and then they rode in formation and gave Kuss the day off.

And the other 'at least' thing about Sky is that they actually won the race in the end. The end only justifies the means if the end is successful.

Kuss ripping it wouldnt have gained Roglic time basically anywhere over Pogacar

 

[cycling_pro]

Kuss ripping it wouldnt have gained Roglic time basically anywhere over Pogacar

Yeah I agree