Serious Crash involving several Giant-Alpecin riders

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

Of course it was an accident, Davesta. If it wasn't deliberate, it was an accident. Anything beyond that is for a court to decide.

I know what he means. And I agree. When driving a car or lorry, you are fully responsible, but many people are only half-and-half paying attention, texting at the wheel, driving while intoxicated, while very tired, speeding, etc. And there is still way too much good-will and excuses for such behaviour.

i know what he means too, but when it all goes wrong, for whatever reason other than deliberate intent, what happens is by definition an accident and to argue otherwise is to argue semantics pointlessly. There is a difference perhaps between accidents caused carelessly and accidents caused recklessly, but in British English at least, they are all accidents. Calling them accidents is not making an excuse.

Not just semantics. Legal consequences are very different if you hit someone because your wheel fell off vs. hitting someone because of negligence or failure to abide traffic laws, I.e. Running red light, texting, traveling in wrong lane of traffic. There may not have been intent to hurt someone, but the driver could have exercised control to avoid by following traffic laws and paying attention. And I too believe the penalties for the latter should be more severe than they are now (in the states).

That is entirely true of course, but in each case you refer to, the initial outcome is an accident. The consequences by way of penalty, if any, depend on fault or culpability. As you indicate, there could be accidents where nobody is at fault and others where one party was. Yet again there could be a case where both parties or every party was at fault. Most criminal jurisdictions focus on identifying the degree of culpability and the consequences follow accordingly. Similarly civil claims for compensation tend to follow a similar course, perhaps with different standards of proof. But this started from a suggestion by another poster that where somebody causes a crash by serious fault that's not truly an accident (see Davesta's post). But of course it is. You and I don't actually disagree and it seems you did not realise what I was trying to say.

 

[hrotha]

Yeah no one's saying negligence shouldn't be punished.

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

Re: Re:

Some background info on the driver:

• On the sunny Saturday afternoon, the woman crossed from the opposite side of the CV-720 provincial road leading to Alicante, near Benigembla, and collided with the cyclists head on. A source working on the investigation said that she was driving a British-style car with the steering wheel on the right side.
  
  Alicante police charged her with imprudence and reckless driving but said that the charges could yet change.
  
  Though not releasing her name, police explained that the woman lives in Spain six months of the year and six months at home in Great Britain.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/73-year-old-british-woman-charged-for-giant-alpecin-road-crash-208491?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social

This makes it sound like she was NOT driving down the road on the wrong side but that she crossed to the wrong side of the road and hit the cyclists. Whether that was deliberate, accidental or beyond the drivers control we do not know.

One reading of that phrasing could mean that she crossed not the centre line while driving straight, but crossed the road to turn right onto it from a side road, into the lane that the cyclists were coming down. That would make alot more sense in terms of how it could happen, like if she was just starting her drive and turning onto a road she could have had the brain cramp that caused her to go on the left side. Crossing the center line while driving straight ahead just makes her sound like a psycho. Either way, it's just so terrible. I'm often frustrated by cars as a cyclist, but this stuff should never happen. Like that guy who hit Leipheimer and dragged him and didn't even notice. There really has to be driver's upgrade testing throughout life or something.

The article could mean something like that but it would make the wording a bit clumsy.

I disagree that the crossing the center line while driving straight makes her seem like a psycho.
In the general sense there are any number of reasons this could happen. Some like medical conditions (stroke, heart attack, seizure or some type of lapse into unconsciousness) could cause this and is not the drivers fault in and of themselves. Then are other things like swerving to avoid something, (human, animal, branch, whatever), falling asleep, reaching to grab something and inadvertently turning the wheel which might be reckless or stupid to some extent but don't make the driver a psycho.

In this case I would expect something like the driver having a heart attack or stroke to have been mentioned, but maybe not a short blackout. The police could charge someone claiming not to know what happened, that they were just driving along and next thing they found they had driven into a group of cyclists. However if a medical reason was found then charges could be dropped, although I would expect the driving license to be removed of medical grounds.

 

[jaylew]

Re: Re:

I think its time we all drive on the same side of the road. Then we would not have these accidents. I'm a brit and I'm happy to switch to the right.

Thousands of miles driven on the wrong side of the road

Monday, 22 August 2011

• More than 108,000 accidents abroad due to collisions with oncoming vehicles, according to swiftcover.com data
• One in three UK motorists drive on the wrong side of the road at least once while abroad

At least 44,000 miles will be driven on the wrong side of the road by Brits abroad this year alone, potentially causing more than 108,000 accidents with oncoming vehicles – according to a study by car insurance provider swiftcover.com.

With more than 4.4 million UK motorists set to hit foreign roads this summer, the study revealed that more than one in three (39 per cent) – equating to 1.7 million UK drivers will drive on the wrong side of the road at some point on their holiday. On previous holidays, almost 50,000 UK drivers admitted to driving at least one mile on the wrong side of the road during a trip abroad.

The worrying findings were further compounded as swiftcover.com policyholder data revealed that British drivers are twice as likely to collide with an oncoming vehicle whilst abroad, and that these kind of accidents account for 17 per cent of the 1.8 million accidents involving UK motorists reported abroad each year.

Robin Reames, chief claims officer at swiftcover.com said: “Lives are on the line because so many Brits are driving on the wrong side of the road whilst abroad. It’s such a fundamental element of driving on foreign roads but it only takes a split second to lose concentration before you find yourself head on with another vehicle.

“We see a huge uplift in oncoming vehicle accidents when Brits drive off overseas

We should indeed all ride on the same side. That would be great, but I think it's too late to change that. The amount of infrastructure that has to be adjusted is just huuuuuuuge.

Yeah you're right it would be huge. But which side should we switch to? I think the whole world should switch to the left. I saw a calculation about 5 years ago that showed that the populations of the countries that drive on the left are greater than those that drive on the right.

Not sure what you saw. It's not even close. WAY more people drive on the right.

Here's a map: http://www.worldstandards.eu/cars/list-of-left-driving-countries/

 

[MatParker117]

Degenkolb will be out for three months, that's the classics for him.

Degenkolb was luckly to be close to Valencia, where Doctor Pedro Cavadas works. Cavadas specialises in plastic surgery and was the first to perform a double leg transplant.

Cavadas operated on Degenkolb for three hours after the crash to save his left index finger. He said that Degenkolb’s recovery “is going well” and that he can return to competition but “in theory, he will need three months” to do so.

The window of recovery, through April 23, estimated by Cavadas would exclude Degenkolb from all the spring Classics.

If his rehabilitation goes well, team Giant could perhaps field him in the Giro d’Italia. The race, where he won a stage in 2013, could prepare him for what would have been his second season goal, the Tour de France.

Cavadas said, “It’s not about returning to a normal life, his normal life is to compete at very high level” and so recovery time is “a little more than the normal recovery time” of other patients. Much, he added, depends on how the doctors take care of him when he returns to Germany.


Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/john-degenkolb-out-for-three-months-according-to-doctor-who-operated-on-him-208724#akvd4hZlrGgOzhdo.99

 

[Catwhoorg]

I learnt to drive in the UK, and drove there basically incident free for ~20 years. On one trip to the continent had a few issues, but the second and subsequent visits were just fine

Relocated to the US and had two near misses due to complete brain farts in the first 6 months or so of driving. Left turns especially were dangerous.

When i visit the UK, I don't generally have a problem getting back into driving there, but come back to the US, and I have to be doubly alert as I risk slipping onto the wrong side again.

 

[Jagartrott]

Barguil confirms the woman thought she was in merry old England.
Apart from that, she also wasn't paying attention as she only braked when she collided with the cyclists.

 

[Kwibus]

Re:

Barguil confirms the woman thought she was in merry old England.
Apart from that, she also wasn't paying attention as she only braked when she collided with the cyclists.

The fact she didn't brake is disturbing. Sounds like a major brainfart....

 

[sienna]

Re:

Horrible news but the latest update from the team on the injuries is encouraging. Sounds like a tourist used to driving on the left got confused and hit them head on. I'm sure they are in complete shock as well as to what they have done. Won't stop them getting prosecuted though, and to be harsh, quite rightly so.

I'd bet there was a mobile phone involved.

 

[Archibald]

Re: Re:

Horrible news but the latest update from the team on the injuries is encouraging. Sounds like a tourist used to driving on the left got confused and hit them head on. I'm sure they are in complete shock as well as to what they have done. Won't stop them getting prosecuted though, and to be harsh, quite rightly so.

I'd bet there was a mobile phone involved.

with a 73 year old driver?

 

[Fenceline]

Re:

Of course it was an accident, Davesta. If it wasn't deliberate, it was an accident. Anything beyond that is for a court to decide.

It's not about a "narrative", it's about the simple fact of the matter.

It is an accident if there are unforeseeable consequences for a given action.
I cannot see how driving on the wrong side of the road would not lead to the conclusion that there would be a collision with oncoming traffic.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

Of course it was an accident, Davesta. If it wasn't deliberate, it was an accident. Anything beyond that is for a court to decide.

It's not about a "narrative", it's about the simple fact of the matter.

It is an accident if there are unforeseeable consequences for a given action.
I cannot see how driving on the wrong side of the road would not lead to the conclusion that there would be a collision with oncoming traffic.

If you insist this is so, what is the word (instead of "accident") to describe what occurred?

Despite what you say the Wikipedia definition appeals to me - "An accident is an undesirable incidental and unplanned event that could have been prevented had circumstances leading up to the accident been recognized, and acted upon, prior to its occurrence."

 

[peloton]

Just glad they are all alive & healing well, pictures from the scene were horrid.

Reckon the driver will get charged with reckless driving, or something like that

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

Of course it was an accident, Davesta. If it wasn't deliberate, it was an accident. Anything beyond that is for a court to decide.

It's not about a "narrative", it's about the simple fact of the matter.

It is an accident if there are unforeseeable consequences for a given action.
I cannot see how driving on the wrong side of the road would not lead to the conclusion that there would be a collision with oncoming traffic.

Of course it was an unforeseeable consequence. She didn't even realise she was on the wrong side of the road.

Just glad they are all alive & healing well, pictures from the scene were horrid.

Reckon the driver will get charged with reckless driving, or something like that

Yeah.
As for her charges; she's already been charged with reckless driving.