Sick and tired of the Spanish cycling federation

Page 2 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
May 8, 2009
376
0
0
sniper said:
So you're basically agreeing with what's been said so far.
I like football and was very happy when Spain won. Does it make me a nationalistic guy or made me more proud of my country??? No. A party is to celebrate, to forget your problems and enjoy the company of others. Why people exaggerates the implications of a sporting celebration like if it would be abnormal is out of my comprehension.

So no, I do not agree whith was was said so far. The component of nationalism in RFEC defending Contador is not that relevant if compared with the plain fact that politicians who control sport federations in Spain believe, with reason or not, that it is in their favour to use sporting success to manage their tempos, appear in the media, divert attention and other ****ty political interests.
 
May 8, 2009
376
0
0
ergmonkey said:
Anybody want to place odds on the Spanish Federation taking all of the following steps?

a) give Contador a reduced ban while publicly declaring that the clenbuterol was conclusively shown to have been accidentally ingested;

b) make sure the ban is long enough to see Contador thrown off of Saxo Bank; and

c) virtually guarantee that Contador comes back to the Tour with Movistar.
+1. However I would not be surprised if he finally receives 1 year, so he can win Vuelta a Espana and compete in the Worlds. I doubt he will be at the TdF even if RFEC would do all they can.
 
Sep 25, 2009
7,527
0
0
i think discussing 'uniqueness of spanish nationalism' is a slippery slope and at the end it's too inflammatory and barely pertinent.

otoh, discussing rfec's anti-doping stance or the multitude of spanish cycling doping positives as a proportion of the total is very pertinent. there is no hiding from bare facts. like it or not, but the contador's case is just another spanish positive.

i agree with hrotha - a sporting official whose agency is responsible for the anti-doping proceedings should not be publicly supporting the subject of the proceedings. it's a violation of a basic ethical imperative. in fact, it's stupid as under certain circumstances he could stand a trial for impropriety or corruption.

we need to give rfec a chance and see how they handle the evidence on both sides. but having read through the cas onyia ruling (iaaf v. spanish athletic federation on clenbuterol) i have my hopes set very low.

ideally, i'd like to read an open cas hearing. from this far, it looks like that's the way things are going.
 
khardung la said:
With all due respect, I am Spanish, and I believe i know a bit about the idiosincracy of my fellow countrymen. I am not going to enter into the catalan, basque, Franco etc... issues, i think it is out of place. People enjoyed the football cup, just like the french did (just remember the huge parade in the Champs Elysees). In a country where showing a flag was unfashionable due to the complex originated after the dictatorship, many people found an excuse to do something that is or should be normal. No big deal, just an oportunity taken to achieve normality. In almost any country showing a flag is normal. Where I live there is almost a flag in every house.
Maybe its just me, but when i see a country where showing a flag is unfashionable, and then an event comes along which suddenly makes it fashionable, i conclude that this event is important.

And you seem to ignore my other points. Yes the miners rescue was compared to Spain winning the world cup. You imagine that, proccess of SAVING lives, of 33 people being compared to winning a football match.

And an event must really be important to a country if people, as you say temporarily forget about their own problems. Such an idea is foreign to me. Hooray 22 millionares (who by the way negotiated themselves a 1 million dollar bonus :eek:) won a match ( for themselves) so i will forget that i am poor.:confused:

And YES THERE was talk about the World Cup uniting the country where nothing else has. You imagine that, a football match UNITING a country. Being a major moment in a countries history.

Sure Spain isnt the only one.

in 2002 a show here in the UK called "moments that shook the world" or something to that effect, had a final 5 showdown as voted by the public. The events were end of world war 2, Acts of terror 911, The moon landing, something else i cant remember, and England winning the world cup.

I s*** you not.

But at the same time, no one said England winning the world cup was going to unite Protestants and Catholics or cure poverty.

And fortunately 911 and V day beat "England winning the world cup" into 3rd place as the most important moment in human history, but i wouldnt be surprised if, if you had such a survey in Spain today, that July 11th would top the lot.
In fact, given all ive seen i wont be surprised if 50 years from now iker casillias isnt reffered to as a founding father of the Spanish nation.

ps on a less contentious note, i am interested by what you mean when you say that Spain is misunderstood abroad.
 
Sep 12, 2010
27
0
0
The Hitch said:
Totally disagree. Other countries maybe, but not Spain.
From everything ive seen "Spanish national pride" is just another way of saying "Spanish national football team"

Perhaps you didnt see what Spain was like on July 11th and 12th of this year. up to 3 million people lined the streets of Madrid to give the football team a parade that lasted 6 hours.

Have you ever seen a parade anywhere in the world that big? What was the celebration? . . .
When Pope John Paul 2 , in Poland seen as god returned to his old city of K
Name me one thing other than football that can even come close to producing such a reaction in Spain?
I would hazard a guess that if England ever managed to get it's hands on the World Cup trophy after 44 years of trying the celebrations would be even bigger than those seen in Madrid.
The truth is Spain has become very accustomed to sporting glory across a wide range of sports. Be it Nadal as world no. 1, Alonso as the best F1 driver, Lorenzo and Pedrosa as the best Moto GP riders, AC as the best cyclist, Barcelona as the best club football team, their national team being world champions, Pau Gasol top player for the LA Lakers etc. etc.

That level of sporting success would create a wave of euphoria in most countries - in England it would be heralded as the return of the Great in Great Britain.

In reality AC is a minor sporting hero in Spain compared to the exposure that Alonso, Nadal and Gasol get. The latter three have huge commercial endorsements and are never off the TV selling something or other.
 
I agree with the lack of bold actions taken by RFEC in the past years--but I also question- what are the rest of federations doing to catch/santion their own dopers? Did the Danish federation ever bother to take action when Riis confesed?-Have the US federation done anything lately after the Landis confession blew over? Is CONI regretting to bring back the unrepentant Di Luca?
 
Nov 7, 2010
142
0
0
sniper said:
The problem is, Spanish nationalist pride is currently sickly dependent on the nation's success in sports. And for Spanish politicians, focusing on sports is a way of distracting attention away from the rampant economy.

This illustrates:

http://de.eurosport.yahoo.com/radsport/blog/article/2620/

Unfortunately, it's in German. It's about the Zapatero and Juan Carlos backing up Contador in the media, immediately after the UCI's announcement yesterday
Here is that particular article translated into English.

The pigeons?

These can "judge" you just do: As soon as the UCI makes the case Contador Ernst - and will no doubt surprise some of their critics - the procedure comes from bad to worse.

And it all goes good for Regulations: The Spanish federation is now so bound to give a positive test when the top riders in the country. And what is the president of the Royal Federation "as a first response on the same night?

"I hope that the outcome should be favorable for the athlete."

Great. And Juan Carlos Castano has of course a good reason why he considers Contador innocent. Because: "I've known him since he drove in the youth team and can not help but to put myself in his shoes."

Since it could not very long week studies and expert opinions needed to explain the finding of minimal traces of Clenbuterol and evaluate.
While reloading Castano has been more neutral comments - but the pieces for his first meaningful statements on the radio are so difficult to mend.

Experts dispute nano-scale

After all, should now be started at high speed the proceedings, but it is probably expect too much with a new Justice Marathon. One month, the Spanish association now time, after which any further delay penalties to be attracted by the UCI. If it takes more than three months, can bring the UCI, the method directly in front of a judge of the CAS. Added to that, as almost standard, appeals to the highest level, which should delay the final verdict on.

Between acquittal and two-year ban is still a possibility, quite unharmed but Contador is no escape. That's already the stage of the UCI clear that after long studies of highly qualified experts, the case did not want to shelve it.

This is the first good news. For at least it is clear that there will be no deal now more likely, as it had with the UCI Contador probably be sought first.

Now we will all hopefully get an insight into the scientific advice of the last weeks and months because the procedure will be a duel of the analysis and explanations. Where did that come from Clenbuterol? Is a flesh-contamination probably even provable? What about the traces of plasticizer in the blood - this is weighted as evidence. Is there perhaps even witnesses who not only can anonymously report on possible doping practices?

Worse than the worst case scenario

Even before the start of the hearings is clear: there is a change in the procedures necessary path. should place the UCI or even the national associations, WADA or the national anti-doping agencies carry the process to ensure a much-needed greater independence.
I only hope that is not the case, Contador one is similar to endless impertinent matter how the affair Valverde. Until today, "Piti" his people as the innocent victims of the justice.

This does not mean that Contador will be guilty for me at all costs. If there is convincing scientific explanations for its findings, an acquittal or a warning, similar to table tennis star Dimitrij Ovtcharov is definitely there.

A convicted Tour winner is the worst case scenario for the sport of cycling, no question. But even worse would be if the verdict, whether acquittal or long lock, a "Gschmäckle" would stick.
 
Aug 6, 2009
2,117
0
0
hfer07 said:
I agree with the lack of bold actions taken by RFEC in the past years--but I also question- what are the rest of federations doing to catch/sanction their own dopers? Have the US federation done anything lately after the Landis confession blew over?
Exactly. There hasn't been ONE prominent American cyclist who rode in Europe since the retirement of Lemond and Hampsten who hasn't been either caught or deeply implicated in doping.

Not one. From the ones who have been successful to the the majority of the ham-and-eggers riding like donkeys to assure Lance Armstrong his success at the Tour, they have all been tainted.

Given the percentages, I find this odd seeing as Europe is supposedly the hotbed of entrenched doping in cycling from the junior ranks on up. But it seems that not one American who has found even a modicum of success in Europe did so clean.

That in itself is quite an indictment on the the of riders we send over to Europe to compete in the highest ranks.
 
May 8, 2009
376
0
0
The Hitch said:
Maybe its just me, but when i see a country where showing a flag is unfashionable, and then an event comes along which suddenly makes it fashionable, i conclude that this event is important.
The event is an excuse by my generation (post-dictatorship) to do something normal: to show a national flag. Football is the main sport in Spain, it would have been strange to make a big party with the flags when Contador won the TdF (out of his city and so forth). The football WC is not a definite moment for national pride or unity ..., it is just the first logical chance in many years to show the flag.

The Hitch said:
And you seem to ignore my other points. Yes the miners rescue was compared to Spain winning the world cup. You imagine that, proccess of SAVING lives, of 33 people being compared to winning a football match.
I do not know who was so dumb to compare those moments, anyhow that is irrelevant, it is just an opinion of someone who compared them. One cannot quantify feelings or generalize what the Spanish and the Chileans were thinking.

The Hitch said:
And an event must really be important to a country if people, as you say temporarily forget about their own problems.
Fotball is important to millions. People also drink to forget their problems for a while. So what?

The Hitch said:
Such an idea is foreign to me. Hooray 22 millionares (who by the way negotiated themselves a 1 million dollar bonus :eek:) won a match ( for themselves) so i will forget that i am poor.:confused:
Those who are poor or rich do not forget their condition, their momentarily have party time or fun. It happens everyday everywhere to almost everyone. No big deal.

The Hitch said:
And YES THERE was talk about the World Cup uniting the country where nothing else has. You imagine that, a football match UNITING a country. Being a major moment in a countries history.
Says who? a journalist? Nothing else has united Spain??? That must be a joke, you seem to disregard the long history of Spain and focus in particular ideological aspects of the last 80 years.

The Hitch said:
In fact, given all ive seen i wont be surprised if 50 years from now iker casillias isnt reffered to as a founding father of the Spanish nation.
You see, phrases like that one make me loose the interest to discuss these kind of issues :). For instance ask the Real Madrid fans in the Santiago Bernabeu stadium about their opinion on Casillas this season, and you will hear growing complaints and doubts about him. Comments like yours are depicting the spaniards like a bunch of uneducated hooligans. Casillas will be considered in 50 years as one of the best goalkeepers of his time. That is it.

The Hitch said:
on a less contentious note, i am interested by what you mean when you say that Spain is misunderstood abroad.
One could go back to the "black legend" 4 centuries ago, the costumbristic (romantic) depictions of the XVIII and XIX century, or to the often ideologically biased analysis of the XX century. One could even refer to the world of cycling fans who dare to say that in Spain juniors and amateurs are encouraged to dope and things like that. I was there, I know how it works.

The RFEC is ashaming, and Spain is obviously not in the forefront of anti-doping. There is a big problem, probably more than in the rest of the countries (maybe USA and some East European countries having similar issues). But I am often astonished by the extreme generalizations and exagerations one can read here too often.
 
The other McHoy said:
That level of sporting success would create a wave of euphoria in most countries - in England it would be heralded as the return of the Great in Great Britain.
I dont think so. The first one is always the biggest. England treat it as the 3rd most important event in history because it only happened once. And obviously they wouldnt say much about Great Britain because its only the England bit.

Besides in England, half the footballers are disgraced anyway. Gerrad beat up some guy and slept with an underaged girl. Rooney Lampard Cole Terry in sex scandles. And i dont even read the tabloids. Its on the front page of the Guardian (or new york times).
In spain on the otherhand they are praised as great guys. Constant crap about their benevolence their dediction. Its different when you have 22 saint peters bringing the cup to their beloved motherland, than it is when Soddom and Gomorah do it.

In reality AC is a minor sporting hero in Spain compared to the exposure that Alonso, Nadal and Gasol get. The latter three have huge commercial endorsements and are never off the TV selling something or other
So true. I mean cycling gets way way more coverage there, than it does here, but you know your not a world renowned star when you are reduced to advertising Sidi cycling shoes and a saddle.
 
khardung la said:
One could go back to the "black legend" 4 centuries ago, the costumbristic (romantic) depictions of the XVIII and XIX century, or to the often ideologically biased analysis of the XX century. One could even refer to the world of cycling fans who dare to say that in Spain juniors and amateurs are encouraged to dope and things like that. I was there, I know how it works.

The RFEC is ashaming, and Spain is obviously not in the forefront of anti-doping. There is a big problem, probably more than in the rest of the countries (maybe USA and some East European countries having similar issues). But I am often astonished by the extreme generalizations and exagerations one can read here too often.
Sorry about the other crap. I was obviously exagerating when i called casillias a founding father but in this country July 11th 2010 really was portrayed as Spains bastille day, or even Dia de la Independencia. The country was going to be saved by this. It was the first time Spain was even in the news since March 04, and it got more coverage this time round.


But i still think that Spain is a country where football is responsible for more patriotism than anything else. This is not the case everywhere though. In America winning in sport is definately not the major form of patriotism. Neither is it in my country Poland, or in Russia.

As for Spain being misunderstood, i wasnt talking about cycling. When you said that did you mean it was misunderstood overall as a country, the history etc, or just when people say they can buy epo in spain?
 
hfer07 said:
I agree with the lack of bold actions taken by RFEC in the past years--but I also question- what are the rest of federations doing to catch/santion their own dopers? Did the Danish federation ever bother to take action when Riis confesed?-Have the US federation done anything lately after the Landis confession blew over? Is CONI regretting to bring back the unrepentant Di Luca?
Let's not forget that CONI is not the Italian authority on cycling but the Olympic authority. The Italian cycling authority is the one that gave out ridiculous bans like di Luca's three-month winter ban back in 2006-7. CONI are much more hardball. The Italian cycling authority doesn't strike me as being much more aggressively anti-doping than RFEC, but CONI go above and beyond them regularly, because they have the jurisdiction to do so. I don't know if the Spanish Olympic authority have the right to go over RFEC's head, but it's irrelevant since they don't do it.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
1
0
The Hitch said:
But i still think that Spain is a country where football is responsible for more patriotism than anything else. This is not the case everywhere though. In America winning in sport is definately not the major form of patriotism. Neither is it in my country Poland, or in Russia.
Also (and this may have been pointed out previously), the uncritical treatment of Contador in the Spanish media contrasts heavily with the critical (and often cynical, sarcastic) treatment Ulrich has received throughout in the German media. There must be a reason for this contrast. Whether it's sportive patriotism or something else... no lo sé..
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
python said:
i think discussing 'uniqueness of spanish nationalism' is a slippery slope and at the end it's too inflammatory and barely pertinent..
Ditto. Im keeping well and truly out of this one.
 
sniper said:
Also (and this may have been pointed out previously), the uncritical treatment of Contador in the Spanish media contrasts heavily with the critical (and often cynical, sarcastic) treatment Ulrich has received throughout in the German media. There must be a reason for this contrast. Whether it's sportive patriotism or something else... no lo sé..
Good point

This is on the front page of the El mundo website today http://www.elmundo.es/elmundodeporte/2010/11/09/ciclismo/1289331475.html?a=ee1286c3a610f8f5c61306ee682485b9&t=1289337527&numero=

Not just Contador as well. Valverde too.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
1
0
The Hitch said:
hehe. Yep. More of the same positivismo is easily found on eurosport.es under ciclismo.

Compare that to the Pechstein-case in Germany. She was a true mascotte of German speed skating and popular as hell, but still the coverage of her doping-case in the German media was remarkably objective, open and critical at all times.
Ok, well, think the point should be about clear now. Anyway, good thing that external/media pressure is now exercised on the RFEC. I'm not expecting a heavily biassed verdict.
 
Jul 27, 2009
749
0
0
hfer07 said:
I agree with the lack of bold actions taken by RFEC in the past years--but I also question- what are the rest of federations doing to catch/santion their own dopers? Did the Danish federation ever bother to take action when Riis confesed?-Have the US federation done anything lately after the Landis confession blew over? Is CONI regretting to bring back the unrepentant Di Luca?
Very good point. Australia, what is happening re the Matt White investigation?
 
Jul 19, 2010
347
0
0
ergmonkey said:
Anybody want to place odds on the Spanish Federation taking all of the following steps?

a) give Contador a reduced ban while publicly declaring that the clenbuterol was conclusively shown to have been accidentally ingested;

b) make sure the ban is long enough to see Contador thrown off of Saxo Bank; and

c) virtually guarantee that Contador comes back to the Tour with Movistar.
You are inadequately cynical. They will declare that there is not enough evidence to rule out that the clenbuterol was ingested accidentally, give Contador a token (short) ban, that somehow won't endanger the TdF crown, and that will be the end of it, Spanish Federation and UCI both happy.
 
Jun 16, 2009
19,657
0
0
Berzin said:
Just like it is unacceptable when Pat McQuaid says that even if it's proven that Armstrong doped, he still considers him a great champion.

This is why I hope Contador get nothing but a slap on the wrist from the Spanish Federation. It serves cycling good after seven abysmal years of "The Cyclism".

I find it funny that people still think Contador was involved in Opercation Puerto. What's the evidence? His nickname stamped on a piece of paper in Dr. Fuentes' office? A "Pistolero" t-shirt found in his closet? What evidence is there that makes everyone feel he's so guilty aside from hearsay and gossip?
Same evidence for valverde, davis, basso, ullrich, mancebo, sevilla, hamilton, jaksche, pantani, scarponi, serrano, osa, etc.

Guilty! Guilty! Guilty!

Spanish federations and government officials are all the same and they are all behind helping these athletes dope especially the way they have backed contador after he has tested positive and been implicated in puerto. We will soon get Libertine responding to my comments because he will defend the spanish riders till the "cows come home". He will then try to spin a comment that evans was more doped than valverde.
 
Oct 3, 2010
77
0
0
auscyclefan94 said:
Same evidence for valverde, basso, ullrich, mancebo, sevilla, hamilton, jaksche, pantani, scarponi, serrano, osa, etc.

Guilty! Guilty! Guilty!

Spanish federations and government officials are all the same and they are all behind helping these athletes dope especially the way they have backed contador after he has tested positive and been implicated in puerto. We will soon get Libertine responding to my comments because he will defend the spanish riders till the "cows come home". He will then try to spin a comment that evans was more doped than valverde.
and same evidence for Allan Davis and more evidence for Fränk Schleck
 
Jun 4, 2010
25
0
0
minessa said:
and same evidence for Allan Davis and more evidence for Fränk Schleck
F. Schleck was the only of the accused riders who offered a DNA analysis.
No offer from: Basso, Valverde, Ulrich….
He probably intended to dope, he only paid the entrance fee to the Fuentes circuit but didn't go further. Luckily for him Fuentes was caught before and his father told him not to listen on Basso's or may be Lombardi (his manager at that time) advice. (Probably Lombardi was the amigo the Berilo)

He didn't store blood in Spain. When the Italians took Valverdes blood they also took Schlecks blood. Certainly they not only compared Valverdes blood but also Schlecks. But there was no match.

For me Schleck is clean, he just stupidity spend money for the first meeting with Fuentes which didn't take place.
 
May 11, 2009
248
0
0
The statements made by the Spanish Federation President were absolutely outrageous. I don't see how anyone can have confidence in the Spanish panel conducting a proper investigation after these kinds of biased statements from the head of the organization.

The Spanish Federation is being shortsighted in how they appear to be handling the case. Yes, it would be damaging to the reputation of the sport to have another TDF champion and another high profile Spanish rider be suspended for two years as a result of a positive doping test. However the damage of not suspending Contador for the full two years could be even worse. First there is the double standard where Contador the high profile rider is given the benefit of the doubt while the Chinese rider is given the full suspension for the same offense. Second the Contador case represents a chance to potentially validate a test for blood doping, the one remaining area where the riders who are doping have a decisive advantage over the testing regime.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY