Sprints at Milan-Sanremo, do you believe in it?

[Echoes]

So I've already started 2 threads on the F6 because I really feel strongly about it.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=12667&highlight=Milan-Sanremo
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=6415&highlight=Milan-Sanremo

All this stuff about Milan-Sanremo being a sprinters' race (on the F6) is boring me. Only the youngster who've never seen this race prior to 1997 would believe this. They can't understand what a SHOCK it was, seeing Zabel winning it.

I think the most knowledgeable posters around here agree this is one of the hardest classics in the calendar and that the distance rarely reached by any other modern races easily adds up for the lack of climbs.

My theory is. Epo coming up in 1990 for an "elite" - without any kind of ruling - allowed cheaters to incredible performances. Bugno raced the fastest Primavera ever. That record is not likely to be broken soon. Furlan made the fastest ascent on the Poggio in 1994.

Precisely, Furlan winning it is evidence that with the necessary help, a real mug could survive the distance, the Poggio and the Cipressa.

Then 1997, the UCI carried out their blood testing which allowed cheaters to use Epo as long as they don't exceed a 50% hematocrit rate. Is it a coincidence if Zabel got his 1st win back then? If "everybody" is up 50% percent, then it's equally easy for everybody.

I very well remember that year. It was also the first time that I saw 60 riders in front approaching the Kapelmuur, so many riders sprinting for the win in Paris-Roubaix and so many riders surviving the Redoute. The commentators noticed just like me that it was getting more and more difficult to create gaps. And if Milan-Sanremo is the only big classic that finished with a sprint, I have to imagine that it's because its main asset is the distance and that Epo alleviates the effect of the distance more than that of a climb.

a 150km Milan-Sanremo is easier than a 150 Tour of Flanders but a 298km Milan-Sanremo is by no means easier than a 256km Tour of Flanders.

It's hard to get any evidence of doping against the sprinters.

Zabel admitted to Epo use. Hence his 4 wins are blown away.
Cipollini was an HGH addict according to Fanini. Ferrari client too, I guess?
Petacchi has apparently been cleared of his positive test and has been accused of possessing PED (+ house searched).

Freire and Cavendish have so far never been involved into a doping affair.

However, if you take the lead-out men, there's plenty of evidence:
Vinokurov was leading the sprint for Zabel in 2001 and 2004 (+ Aldag in 2004). He's a doper. Without Vinokurov, Zabel doesn't win.
Trenti and Lombardi were two of Cipollini's lead-out men in 2002. Trenti caught in 2006. Lombardy is involved in the Sanremo Blitz and Puerto. Without 'em, Cipo never wins Milan-Sanremo (and by the way, without Trenti, he's not World Champion) + Martin Perdiguero was his team mate too, and a very suspicious rider.
Sacchi and Velo were among Petacchi's lead-out men in 2005. Without 'em, he doesn't win. Sacchi was caught in 2002 and Velo positive for roids in 2006 (ITT nats).
Max Van Heeswijk was Freire lead-out guy (among others). Van Heeswijk seemed to have admitted to EPO use and then recalled it. Without him, Freire does not win.
George Hincapie was Cavendish's lead-out guy in 2009. Without Hincapie, Cav doesn't win. Hincapie admitted to Epo use, recently. At the same time, he had the help of Danilo Di Luca, Lorenzo Bernucci and Gaby Bosisio all working for Petacchi and all dopers.

And in 2010, Freire again took advantage of the work by Lorenzo Bernucci for Petacchi, Bernucci being a doper.


In a sense, 2011 was really positive. First, we knew that it wasn't gonna be a sprint. And we could see sprinters and their men really exhausted on the top of the Manie. I won't be too enthusiastic but I hope that we're heading towards the right direction.

 

[Von Mises]

Jaan Kirsipuu has made a similar point. In couple of interviews, when asked, why he never performed in MSR or other flatter classics, he said that it is because other sprinters used "help" (conisdering context, he was pretty cleary talking about doping) and thats why he himself always had trouble with longer and harder stages.

 

[L'arriviste]

Only just noticed this thread, Echoes. Interesting because it's a deeper analysis.

I'm going to look at 1998, when Zabel won again for the second consecutive year.

Second-tier sprinter Angel Edo (Kelme) was prevented from starting MSR due to a high haematocrit. Needless to say, Kelme had no other donkeys to whip.

The results for that edition are of course a Who's Who of Wrong at a time when nobody could have predicted the annus horribilis that season would turn out to be. In fact, six of the top ten and thirteen of the top 20 were directly involved in doping incidents during their careers.

Meanwhile spare a thought for poor Alessandro Petacchi. Riding the 1998 MSR at the start of his third professional season, he could only manage 168th. After desultory 1998 and 1999 seasons in which he won nothing on the European calendar, he moved to Fassa Bortolo and scored no less than ten victories!

 

[L'arriviste]

<snip the historiographic excellence>

In a sense, 2011 was really positive. First, we knew that it wasn't gonna be a sprint. And we could see sprinters and their men really exhausted on the top of the Manie. I won't be too enthusiastic but I hope that we're heading towards the right direction.

A little bit of skewing of course because the peloton was uncharacteristically split in two (was that the Turchino, I forget now), but to take on your general thesis, an MSR à l'ancien ought to contain a sprinkling of high placing "sprinters".

Vanderaerden, Calcaterra, Baffi, De Wilde and Bontempi always did well during the 80s, but we also saw "climbers" like Maechler, Chioccioli, Rooks and Theunisse (these latter were of course famous testo abusers).

I use inverted commas for "sprinter" and "climber" because it's difficult to label riders of that period as absolute specialists in the way that many of us do now. Clearly you were never going to see Chioccioli at the Ronde, but he was a useful rider in the Classics.

 

[Big Doopie]

and of course merckx won it seven times -- always alone or out-sprinting a small group of riders.

 

[sherer]

George Hincapie was Cavendish's lead-out guy in 2009. Without Hincapie, Cav doesn't win. Hincapie admitted to Epo use, recently.

When exactly did Hincapie admit to EPO use and where are the links to back this up ?

 

[Aurelius]

When exactly did Huncapie admit to EPO use and where are the links to back this up ?

Cav doesn't win without Hincapie?

 

[rhubroma]

That's because, in today's cycling, getting over the Poggio aint no big deal.

Everyone is too fit.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

That's because, in today's cycling, getting over the Poggio aint no big deal.

Everyone is too fit.

Yes & no.

Certainly more are arriving at the Poggio and it is not as decisive as it was.

But another reason many get back on is because they have moved the finish from Corso Cavalotti further in to San Remo.

 

[Winterfold]

That's because, in today's cycling, getting over the Poggio aint no big deal.

Everyone is too fit.

I agree. I was on holiday there this year after our usual trip to Alpes-Maritimes and the MSR climbs are not hard.

(What a beautiful part of the world - like all the good bits of the Cote D'Azur wth none of the aristochav and naff. Pity there is a Logans run thing going on for anyone gorgeous looking over 24 years old)

With all the science and understanding they have behind them it does not surprise me for me riders like Cav, Goss, Spartacus to get over them.

What amazes me is that any rider can do a 300km race.

But with disciplined domestiques how long are they drafting for in MSR - 250km of it?

 

[Bavarianrider]

The level of competition is simply a lot higher then it used to be prior to the 90es. There are simply far more elite riders. I don't thin Milan San remo became a sprinters race ebcause of Doping.

 

[ingsve]

I think there are many factors that has made MSR into more of a sprinters race. Doping is certainly part of that but another factor is that it's ridden by many teams as a sprinters race now so there are more people interested in keeping it together. MSR is also no longer the early season race it once was. The season starts much earlier with most riders starting in January or the first part of Febuary so by the time MSR rolls around more riders are in better racing form.

 

[The Hitch]

But with disciplined domestiques how long are they drafting for in MSR - 250km of it?

Especially since MSR is pretty straight, there are few turns.

 

[Echoes]

Jaan Kirsipuu has made a similar point. In couple of interviews, when asked, why he never performed in MSR or other flatter classics, he said that it is because other sprinters used "help" (conisdering context, he was pretty cleary talking about doping) and thats why he himself always had trouble with longer and harder stages.

Interesting to have the opinion of an ex-pro sprinter. I know many people who agreed with me but not a guy of his status. It's true that it's always been said he had trouble with 200+ km races.

McEwen never did well in Milan-Sanremo either.

 

[Echoes]

A little bit of skewing of course because the peloton was uncharacteristically split in two (was that the Turchino, I forget now), but to take on your general thesis, an MSR à l'ancien ought to contain a sprinkling of high placing "sprinters".

Vanderaerden, Calcaterra, Baffi, De Wilde and Bontempi always did well during the 80s, but we also saw "climbers" like Maechler, Chioccioli, Rooks and Theunisse (these latter were of course famous testo abusers).

You're right. "Sprinters" in old editions could place highly (top10) in Milan-Sanremo but they never manage to win after the addition of the Cipressa and usually they were far behind (in time), as well (certainly when you have a talent like Fignon in it), something like 50".

In 2011, the peloton was split in two after the Manie. Some would say "because of a crash" but I read an article on CN (which I posted on the race thread) in which Nibali said he saw the sprinters being really tired.
The top10 of this year's Sanremo is much more Sanremo-like than what we've been used to these last 20 years.


By the way, if you're watching the 1998 Milan-Sanremo (on DVD?), notice how Zabel was isolated that day after the Poggio. Alberto Elli attacked below the Poggio descent and the guy leading the bunch was Gabriele Colombo, for nobody but Zabel. I guess his wallet was full after that. I still can't accept it after 13 years. Of course, Elli has been implicated in doping affairs but history might have been different.

 

[Echoes]

When exactly did Hincapie admit to EPO use and where are the links to back this up ?

You have a thread on these boards, use the search motion.

But another reason many get back on is because they have moved the finish from Corso Cavalotti further in to San Remo.

Wrong argument, I think.

The Corso Cavalotti was just a temporary substitute finish between 1987 and 1992 because of roadwork on the Via Roma (if I'm not mistaken?).

Kelly won on the Via Roma in 1986 with only LeMond and Beccia on his wheel. The Via Roma is the traditional finish of this race.

 

[Echoes]

I think there are many factors that has made MSR into more of a sprinters race. Doping is certainly part of that but another factor is that it's ridden by many teams as a sprinters race now so there are more people interested in keeping it together.

There are probably other factors, too but isn't this one rather a consequence than a cause?

MSR is also no longer the early season race it once was. The season starts much earlier with most riders starting in January or the first part of Febuary so by the time MSR rolls around more riders are in better racing form.

That's inaccurate.

Check out the number of races prior to Milan-Sanremo that there used to be in say 1976: http://www.cyclebase.nl/?lang=nl&page=kalender&kld_year=1976

(Bearing in mind that oldtimers would often race Sixes, which are now almost extinct)

 

[sherer]

You have a thread on these boards, use the search motion.

So basically there are no direct quotes from Hincapie saying he has used EPO. A few people one of the LA threads think he's spilled the beans but nothing direct or concrete hence why you can't post a link or any direct quotes.

 

[Echoes]

(CBS 60 min doco; I would very much appreciate this not to be the focus of attention of my thread, please)



The results shown by the website milansanremo.co.uk are misleading. The gaps aren't accurate for some editions.

Just consider this:

http://www.milansanremo.co.uk/1988result.htm

And check out the final k's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iW2iMP1n4s

Rooks finished at 7" according to Théo Mathy (great commentator from RTBF). Roscioli at 10". Vanderaerden at 16". Allochio 33rd was at 50", still according to Théo Mathy.


And if you wanna see the dark side of modern sprinting, just check this out (or how Andrei Tchmil lost the World crown):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PIw-gUYPUM

Summary: Lefevere advised Vainsteins - Latvia - to talk with Rumsas - Lithuania - before the start, give him some money and in the end, Rumsas lead the sprint out for Vainsteins behind Tchmil. Disgusting !

 

[Echoes]

so basically there are no direct quotes from hincapie saying he has used epo.

haha :d _-___

 

[Big Doopie]

haha :d _-___

chapeau...