State of the Peloton 2025

[Ripper]

And meanwhile, some good racing was on earlier today at the Duracell Dwars door het Hageland
(

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9XZedVZD3k&t=17s
)

 

[zlev11]

lol, duracell

 

[TrekCyclist]

Would mechanical doping with a torsional spring in the rear hub be possible?
There would be a loaded torsional spring, that could be released electrically and then provide extra power for 30s or 1min or so. Like in an old clock basically.
I did not go through the numbers yet, though, whether that would make sense and could provide meaningful energy for 1min on a final climb.

 

[Stablo]

And meanwhile, some good racing was on earlier today at the Duracell Dwars door het Hageland
(

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9XZedVZD3k&t=17s
)

That's a hilarious sponsor for a procycling event😂it doesn't even matter if you believe in e-doping or not, but the talk has been out there and is getting ever louder. They should sponsor the e-bike events tbh, but yeah "nobody" watches those.

 

[fenns]

Watching the Diamond League athletics one can reflect on the world records many of which have stood for many years e.g 1500m, 800m. Athletics has a standard set of distances so athletes can be compared to their counterparts of years ago. The only event which has seen consistent big improvements is the marathon due to shoe technology. Hicham El Guerrouj from 2004 is still better than today's 1500m runners.

Pro road cycling does not have a standard set to compare generations - but I keep reading that the "numbers" improve every year e.g Pogi Jonas 24 were measurably better than 23. that Roglic's "numbers" are much better than when he nearly won the Tour, that the "numbers" today are way better than Froome or Contador could produce.

So what's going on in cycling? No doubt legal technology is always improving - but enough to account for such improvements? Surely today's riders are motor/chemical doping off the charts - or is something else going on?

 

[E_F_]

legal technology is always improving

The calculations account for changes in kits, bikes, helmets, even road surfaces. So the only legal technologies impacting the calculated watts would be nutrition and training...

 

[Unchained]

Watching the Diamond League athletics one can reflect on the world records many of which have stood for many years e.g 1500m, 800m. Athletics has a standard set of distances so athletes can be compared to their counterparts of years ago. The only event which has seen consistent big improvements is the marathon due to shoe technology. Hicham El Guerrouj from 2004 is still better than today's 1500m runners.

Pro road cycling does not have a standard set to compare generations - but I keep reading that the "numbers" improve every year e.g Pogi Jonas 24 were measurably better than 23. that Roglic's "numbers" are much better than when he nearly won the Tour, that the "numbers" today are way better than Froome or Contador could produce.

So what's going on in cycling? No doubt legal technology is always improving - but enough to account for such improvements? Surely today's riders are motor/chemical doping off the charts - or is something else going on?

Everything in cycling has changed.. Rider height, weight, clothing, frame and wheel design. Training, nutrition, cross training, tactics, rider position. Tire pressure, size, materials, bearing surfaces, frame materials.. And many of those things cross over to many sports including running..yes something else is going on.. Science!! And many old school racers are saying it often and out loud, too much data, not enough heart, instinct and lack of race days..

 

[TrekCyclist]

There are also "strange" things in athletics. Like the 400m hurdels final in Tokyo '21. Or Mo Farah. For example.

 

[HashRouge]

The calculations account for changes in kits, bikes, helmets, even road surfaces. So the only legal technologies impacting the calculated watts would be nutrition and training...

I read this a fair bit, but I don't understand how. Like, how do the calculations account for these changes? It seems to me they pretty much just work out how fast someone went up a particular climb compared to someone else.

 

[fenns]

ppppp

There are also "strange" things in athletics. Like the 400m hurdels final in Tokyo '21. Or Mo Farah. For example.

Of course - there are strange things in many sports. But all of the Olympic men's events the world records are 5 years old or more.

I don't buy that cycling has discovered training and nutrition improvements not available to other athletes. It would also be strange if chemical doping improvements but were not similarly available. I think there can only be 2 reasons

1) Testing in cycling is particularly weak - certainly weaker than track and field - and may even be almost non-existent for practical purposes

2) Motor doping - which would not be easily implementable in athletics.

My money is on (2) - and that it's so new that there are rapid improvements in the technology that are producing these remarkable "numbers". But I would also like to see the TUEs of Pogi, Jonas, etc

 

[Tim Cahill]

In regards to the absence of suspicion, no rumours about what they are taking etc. Well here you go, AICAR, TB500/Peptides, tiny detection window, innumerable novel variants, still not banned, various figures from past still involved. Ineos and German/Slovenian networks via Aderlass directly named, keep in mind this is what they are allowed to report, rather than everything they know

"Doping Top Secret: In the Slipstream" - Aicar and "extraterrestrials": ARD documentary reignites doping discussion

Cycling insiders have spent years insisting that professional cycling has learned the lessons of its dark past. New research from the ARD doping editorial team concludes differently.

www.sportschau.de

"Doping Top Secret: In the Slipstream"Aicar and "extraterrestrials": ARD documentary reignites doping discussion​

Stand: 21.06.2025 05:00 Uhr
Cycling insiders have spent years insisting that professional cycling has learned the lessons of its dark past. New research from the ARD doping editorial team concludes differently.


Von Hajo Seppelt, Sebastian Krause, Lea Löffler, Tom Mustroph und Jörg Mebus
New doubts about "extraterrestrial" performances, alleged death threats and Aicar as a possible "means of choice" in the peloton: The ARD documentary "Doping Top Secret: In the Slipstream" raises fresh doping discussions two weeks before the start of the Tour de France - not only through the research about a former accomplice of the Erfurt blood doping network, who still works unaffected at the top team Ineos Grenadiers.

In the film, anonymous whistleblowers with deep insights into professional cycling have their say. Their statements are in stark contrast to the persistent assurances of riders and officials that cycling has learned its lessons from dark doping times and can look to the future with no worries.

Alleged death threats​

"Many people in cycling are afraid to talk. I know some who wanted to testify, they were threatened with death when the doping masterminds found out that they wanted to talk," said a former professional cyclist who rode in a top team and experienced doping in the industry himself. He affirms his statements under oath.

The last positive doping test during the Tour de France was a decade ago in 2015, but the man added: "To believe that nothing illegal has been taken at the Tour de France since 2015 - that's a joke. I was close myself and noticed that doping continued."

EPO in microdosing and Aicar​

The other anonymous whistleblower from "Doping Top Secret: In the Slipstream" is a man who is familiar with many doping practices in cycling. He has deep insights into the professional cycling scene and is known there.

He reports that an illegal substance that appeared in the 2010s still plays a major role today: Aicar, an actually endogenous metabolic activator, which is used in its synthetic form as a doping agent and highly effectively increases the energy level in the muscles - which is why it is on the prohibited list.

"People who are active in professional cycling today say: Aicar was and is the means of choice in the peloton," explains the whistleblower. This was already the case after the major doping scandals - "and it is still the case today". The endurance booster EPO is also still popular in microdosing, the man said. He also signed an affidavit for this.

"Door opened that never closed again"​

Ron Evans of the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in San Diego, California, is considered the father of the synthetic aicar. In 2008, his research paved the way for the use of Aicar as a drug that is used in cancer regeneration, among other things.

The potential for abuse in sport was immediately recognised not only by Evans, but also by "the Tour de France organisers and the World Anti-Doping Agency." Evans said he was sure that many in the sport had benefited from the remedy: "It opened a door that never closed again."

Doping controls as IQ tests​

In the film, an expert has his say who considers the prohibition measures of the anti-doping institution in sports against Aicar to be almost ineffective - not only because the detection window for the substance is extremely small. "If I were an athlete, would I take Aicar knowing it's on the prohibited list? Or would I rather take Aicar's relatives who are not on the prohibited list?" says Oliver Catlin, nutrition and doping expert from Los Angeles. In a simple Google search, he found 166 Aicar-like preparations, of which only four appear by name on the WADA banned list.

Oliver Catlin, nutrition and doping expert from Los Angeles.
The son of the American anti-doping legend Don Catlin describes doping controls as intelligence tests: "If you are caught competing with things that are on the prohibited list, that would be unsurpassed in stupidity in today's world."

"Developments outweigh the advantages of illegal substances"​

Experts from cycling also have their say in the documentary, who believe that the explosive improvements in performances by modern cyclists can be clearly explained by wide-ranging innovations. "I think the big developments even outweigh the benefits of illegal substances in the past. We are talking about many improvements: material, aerodynamics, of course, weight, bike handling, grip, comfort," says product developer Filippo Galli from the bike manufacturer Colnago.

Kristof de Kegel, nutritionist at Alpecin Deceunick, for example, reports on groundbreaking advances in his field, which is accompanied by an increase in the amount of carbohydrates that drivers can absorb per hour.

"Can't explain what's going on on the street"​

Others disagree. French sports scientist Pierre Sallet, for instance, does not believe that rule-compliant developments in machine, man and material can explain the rapid improvements in course records. "We know the limits of human performance. We know what is feasible for a person and what is not. There are certainly gray areas," Sallet said, "but at some point the zone turns black, then it's 100 per cent doping."


Pierre Sallet, French sports scientist, does not believe in clean cycling.
Sallet has already analysed performance data of the Tour de France on French television in the days of convicted dopers such as Jan Ullrich and Lance Armstrong and coined the term "aliens" on the bike at that time. He suspects that critical comments such as these contributed to the decision not to extend his contract with the tour organiser ASO.

With a view to the rapid performances in the current peloton, he says: "I can't explain what's going on on the road. For example: A normal adult male is between 1.60 m and 2.20 m tall. But the performances that we sometimes see, that would be as if the man were three meters tall."

Appeal to officials and drivers​

Roger Legeay, the founder and president of the "Movement for Credible Cycling" (MPCC), considers the anti-doping regulations of WADA and the UCI to be too lax and the organisations too cumbersome. "That's precisely why," he says, powerful anti-doping work is "the job of the team managers, the doctors, the sports directors, the riders – they have to do it. All these people from cycling – they are the ones who have to ensure ethical and clean sport that is less suspicious."

But professional cycling is still teeming with convicted doping offenders or riders and other team members who have been incriminated in investigations. Nevertheless, they will continue to be employed in the industry - in a total of 14 of the 18 World Tour teams.

 

[Tim Cahill]

"Doping Top Secret: In the Slipstream" - "Medico Tehna": Slovenian company again under doping spotlight

In the 2010s, a medical technology company in Ljubljana was a point of contact for Mark S., the Erfurt blood doping doctor. The ARD documentary "In the Slipstream" shows: "Medico Tehna" is still open to dubious business today.

www.sportschau.de

"Doping Top Secret: In the Slipstream""Medico Tehna": Slovenian company again under doping spotlight​

Stand: 21.06.2025 05:00 Uhr
In the 2010s, a medical technology company in Ljubljana was a point of contact for Mark S., the Erfurt blood doping doctor. The ARD documentary "In the Slipstream" shows: "Medico Tehna" is still open to dubious business today.


Von Hajo Seppelt, Sebastian Krause, Lea Löffler, Tom Mustroph und Jörg Mebus

In the end, everything happened very quickly. The management of the Slovenian medical technology company Medico Tehna had asked for some time to think about it in the consultations about the alleged purchase of the "Multi Component Collection System", after all, they had "a few problems", said the company manager - with "athletes" who had used the device for "illegal doping".

21.06.2025

"Doping Top Secret: In the slipstream"German blood doping ring accomplice a major figure in cycling​

ARD can reveal that numerous members or customers of the dismantled Erfurt blood doping network have escaped punishment. An accomplice of doping doctor Mark S. has been working undisturbed for years at leading team Ineos Grenadiers. mehr

One is therefore "rather hesitant" with a sale, because such devices are "actually intended for medical treatments". In the end, the Slovenians apparently cast aside all scruples. The lure of money – the machine, which in theory could be the heart of a blood doping ring in sports, costs up to 50,000 euros including accessories – was apparently too strong.

Delivery "in two to three weeks"​

The promise to sell and deliver the device to interested parties from Germany was made a few days later by telephone. Behind the alleged buyers, who had introduced themselves as sports managers with contacts in the cycling scene, was the ARD doping editorial team. During the course of the consultations, which also took place at the company's headquarters in Ljubljana, the journalists had clearly expressed the illegal purpose of the machine.

No scruples: employees of the Slovenian medical technology company Medico Tehna.

And the last phone call, in which the supposed deal was concluded, lasted only a few minutes. The manager said shortly before the completion of the film that the machine could possibly be "delivered in two to three weeks".

Even the renewed emphasis that fast delivery was of great importance because of the planned use of the machine at upcoming sporting events left the employee with no more scruples: "Okay, no problem, thank you!" Apparently, it is still easy to get hold of medical equipment that can also be misused for illegal blood doping.

21.06.2025

"Doping Top Secret: In the Slipstream"Aicar and "extraterrestrials": ARD documentary reignites doping discussion​

Cycling insiders have spent years insisting that professional cycling has learned the lessons of its dark past. New research from the ARD doping editorial team concludes differently. mehr

Tipping "only if you are alone"​

Medico Tehna had already come under pressure in the course of "Operation Aderlass" because it served as a contact point for the Erfurt blood doping mastermind Mark S. Among other things, the company was also mentioned in the chats between Mark S. and two accomplices, which had been leaked to the ARD doping editorial team during research for the film "In the Slipstream".

Even tip payments in Ljubljana were conspiratorial. "Mark, do I have to tip at Medico Tehna? If so, how much?" one of the accomplices wrote to Mark S. The doctor replied that he should give the contact person a hundred euros, "but really only if you are alone and no one sees it".

No response to request​

In the course of the bloodletting trials, an employee of the company had been convicted of aiding and abetting: On February 10, 2022, Gregor A. was sentenced to a suspended sentence of one year and nine months by the Sonthofen District Court as Mark S.'s helper for "prohibited use of doping methods in sports". The current management of Medico Tehna left an inquiry from the ARD doping editorial team on the latest facts unanswered. It is unclear whether the company in Slovenia will now face consequences.

 

[Tim Cahill]

TB500/Peptides named as in-use substances, does anyone know the unnamed individual at Ineos, can't be too hard to figure it out?

"Doping Top Secret: In the slipstream" - German blood doping ring accomplice a major figure in cycling

ARD can reveal that numerous members or customers of the dismantled Erfurt blood doping network have escaped punishment. An accomplice of doping doctor Mark S. has been working undisturbed for years at leading team Ineos Grenadiers.

www.sportschau.de

ARD can reveal that numerous members or customers of the dismantled Erfurt blood doping network have escaped punishment. An accomplice of doping doctor Mark S. has been working undisturbed for years at leading team Ineos Grenadiers.

Von Hajo Seppelt, Sebastian Krause, Lea Löffler, Tom Mustroph und Jörg Mebus
Just before the start of the Tour de France, cycling is being caught up by its dark doping past – partly because of a statement made by Munich's chief public prosecutor Kai Gräber in an interview with ARD's doping editorial team.

“It may well be that at some point, incidents that occurred in the past can no longer be punished due to the statute of limitations," he said. Gräber was in charge of "Operation Aderlass" (Operation Bloodletting), which led to the dismantling of the Erfurt blood doping network surrounding doctors and mastermind Mark S.

This issue posed major challenges for Gräber at the time. Many of the suspected offences had already exceeded the statute of limitations under criminal law. Gräber emphasises that he could not initiate proceedings if it was "absolutely clear" that "no prosecution could be brought."

Mark S. accomplice now in Team Ineos​

For professional sport - especially cycling, which today likes to present itself as reformed after countless doping scandals - this fact raises new and sensitive questions. Such figures are likely to remains involved in the sport for many years. According to Gräber, no further investigations were carried out against up to 20 suspects from the blood doping ring or with contacts to it as part of "Operation Aderlass".

Few were subsequently prosecuted by the sports courts, which, unlike the criminal courts, are only subject to a ten-year statute of limitations – for example, professional cyclists Alessandro Petacchi and Kristijan Koren, both clients of Mark S.

According to ARD research, up to 14 people, some of whom are under serious suspicion, got off scot-free, most of them from cycling. The ARD doping editorial team found one of them during its research for “Im Windschatten” (In the Slipstream).

One of the men now holds an important position at Team Ineos Grenadiers, the successor to Team Sky, by far the most successful team in cycling in the 2010s. The man was also part of the team when Briton Chris Froome dominated the sport almost at will and won the Tour de France three times in a row (2015 to 2017). There are no reasonable grounds for suspicions against Froome in connection with this person or Team Sky.

Because the sport's anti-doping organisations apparently did not investigate in a timely manner and the statute of limitations has now expired, the media is no longer allowed to disclose the person's identity for reasons of personal rights. For this reason, the man's name is not mentioned in the film.

Mediation by ‘Maestro Baltazar’​

The suspicions against the man come from chat logs found on mobile phones seized by Mark S. during the "Aderlass" investigation. The ARD doping editorial team has been given access to the original logs, which contain chat histories between Mark S. and the man who is still active in cycling today with Team Ineos, as well as another accomplice.

The suspicions arising from the chats are serious and even suggest that the man may have played an important role in Mark S.'s network. For example, he introduced S. to a suspected doping dealer, whom the Erfurt doctor later recommended to his clients as a supplier of banned substances such as Aicar and TB500. Code name: Maestro Baltazar.

Financier for blood doping equipment​

According to the correspondence, he also acted as a financier for the third man involved in the chat. This money was used to purchase blood doping equipment from companies in Vienna and Ljubljana. Payment was always made in cash, and the trio mostly used Slovenian prepaid mobile phone cards for communication, which the two accomplices organised for Mark S.

The men moved cautiously in the cycling business. ‘I'll be at the track on Sunday, but it's better if people only see me in the group,’ Mark S. wrote in the run-up to the main race at a world championships.

According to messages written in English, the man, who still works in cycling today, also helped the blood doping doctor with his insider knowledge when it came to travel planning. "Do you already know which hotel the Slovenians are staying at for the World Championships? I need a room from Wednesday." The man also helped plan a visit by the Erfurt doctor to the Tour de France.

The current Ineos employee asked the doctor elsewhere whether he still had any of an unspecified substance in stock that he had previously organised for a German racing team: "If so, can you bring it for the boys?"

Ineos: ‘No comment’​

The man did not respond to a detailed enquiry from the ARD doping editorial team. The management of Team Ineos replied: "We do not wish to comment at this time." It is unclear whether the team is aware of the man's past. It is also unclear whether the employee will show up at the Tour de France, which starts on 5 July in Lille.

Some of Mark S.'s accomplices who did not benefit from the statute of limitations received heavy suspended sentences in the "bloodletting" trial. The doctor himself was sentenced to years in prison and also lost his licence to practise medicine for life.

The fact that one of Erfurt's accomplices is still able to work in sport completely unrestricted is described by Cologne sports law professor Jan F. Orth as "difficult to bear". The approach taken by the organisations concerned can be described as 'highly negligent at the very least', Orth told ARD, especially in view of one remarkable fact: The names of the man who still works for Ineos and Mark S.'s other chat partner were even mentioned during the bloodletting trial in the Munich courtroom when parts of the chats were read out – and yet nothing happened afterwards. Orth said that this was fundamentally how "the fight against doping will fail".

"Carrying them to the hunt"​

Orth expressly defends the Munich public prosecutor's office - which is, after all, a centre for doping offences - in this regard. It is "not a source of information or intelligence". Gräber did not want to comment in detail on this issue in the ARD interview for legal reasons, as the proceedings had long since been concluded.

However, Orth sees a clear failure in the fact that the men were not prosecuted under sports law at the time and that one of them was able to pursue a career in one of the world’s most successful teams. "This once again underlines the image that the responsible ladies and gentlemen and organisations in the fight against doping, at least in cycling, still need to be hunted down."

ITA still investigating in 2025​

The International Cycling Union (UCI), together with the International Testing Agency (ITA), which runs anti-doping activities on its behalf, did not mention the Ineos employee's past in their responses to the ARD's enquiries. The question of how long the organisations had known about the specific case also remain unanswered.

The ITA, which has only been responsible for cycling since 2021, stated that it had investigated unspecified circumstances "in early 2025" after receiving "new information from the German authorities" – apparently after it had got wind of the ARD's investigations.

"The outcome of this investigation did not allow the ITA to refer a potential case to the UCI," both organisations said in almost identical statements. Apparently, their hands were tied due to the statute of limitations – no new grounds for suspicion were found.

Slovenian company again under scrutiny​

During "Operation Aderlass" six years ago, it became clear that the medical technology company Medico Tehna in Ljubljana had played an important role in the doping network, where Mark S. had also received technical support for his business. And the company is seemingly still open to questionable deals.

Disguised as a sports management company in cycling, the ARD Doping Editorial Team received a commitment from the company to purchase and deliver a blood doping machine worth up to 50,000 euros. According to its own statements, Medico Tehna is only permitted to sell to medical institutions.

 

[E_F_]

I read this a fair bit, but I don't understand how. Like, how do the calculations account for these changes? It seems to me they pretty much just work out how fast someone went up a particular climb compared to someone else.

Some clever people worked out a mathematical formula for estimating the Watts. That's the formula they use...

 

[Rackham]

Imagine watching pro-cycling in 2025 and thinking these guys are clean. Ha... ha.... and another ha.

Enjoy the show. But that investigation seems light on results (& it's obviously timed perfectly two weeks before the TdF and the Netflix documentary airs).

 

[Red Rick]

Watching the Diamond League athletics one can reflect on the world records many of which have stood for many years e.g 1500m, 800m. Athletics has a standard set of distances so athletes can be compared to their counterparts of years ago. The only event which has seen consistent big improvements is the marathon due to shoe technology. Hicham El Guerrouj from 2004 is still better than today's 1500m runners.

Pro road cycling does not have a standard set to compare generations - but I keep reading that the "numbers" improve every year e.g Pogi Jonas 24 were measurably better than 23. that Roglic's "numbers" are much better than when he nearly won the Tour, that the "numbers" today are way better than Froome or Contador could produce.

So what's going on in cycling? No doubt legal technology is always improving - but enough to account for such improvements? Surely today's riders are motor/chemical doping off the charts - or is something else going on?

Different sports.

I'm pretty sure VO2 max and 3-5 minute W/kg have improved much less explosively across the board than the longer efforts in cycling.

Then you have the simple difference that cycling is weight bearing so there's more biomechanical load issues you need to measure with training.

Then you have the simple fact that cycling has multi hour races with all effort levels in there and often including maximal 10-40 minute efforts in a depleted state which you don't really have.

All these together may simply mean cyclists wlil benefit more from year round doped up training even if runners were to use the same stuff.

 

[Mayomaniac]

I had stuff like tb500 and bpc-157 on my list, soft tissue healing peptides helping with recovery and having your body handle huge training loads without breaking down.

 

[Red Rick]

I had stuff like tb500 and bpc-157 on my list, soft tissue healing peptides helping with recovery and having your body handle huge training loads without breaking down.

Mayo has a very peculiar sort of Christmas wishlist.

 

[ppanther92]

I listened to the ARD podcast today. Its quite light on real investigative content. Good listen nevertheless. It basically circles around five topics:

(i) the INEOS guy that was in the Mark S. Aderlass network, previously already at Team Sky (Froome and Wiggins era) and in the meantime somewhere else, now back at Ineos. They had access to chat messages with Mark S., where he speaks about meeting the Slovenian team at the World Championships and buying stuff at a Slovenian MedTech distributor. They can’t name him since the limitation period for his Aderlass involvement has run out (as it has for others with the UCI not willing to prosecute them). Thats also the most interesting part.

(ii) the Slovenian MedTech distributor (Medi Tehna) where they requested to buy a device to administer blood doping (and after some initial push back would have been able to get it). As said, Aderlass used them already but as someone that has some insights in the MedTech area (work related), I can basically assure you that this would be possible in literally every country and with probably most distributors (the samller the better). I would also argue its really not the job of those companies to check credibility of companies buying from them (ARD even set up a fake company). So thats almost non news to me.

iii) peptides, especially AICAR. I think peptides are an immensely interesting research field. And in the specific case of AICAR as AMPK activator - there are apparently 166 variations with directionally similar effects but only 4 are on the WADA list. Which doesn’t mean the other 162 analogues are not prohibited (. But it means they are not tested for. I personally have no doubt research peptides are used.

(iv) Jonas’ carbon monoxide rebreathing photo, the proven use by various teams (also incl. UAE) and now the ban. I am pretty certain teams used that beyond testing because its simply non detectable. Heck, its non detectable still unless you get caught in the act.

(v) the end of contract (with ASO) after the 2015 Tour with Pierre Sallet’s data provider company after he talked sceptical about the numbers seen vs. physical limitations. Ofc it was because of him being a “nest polluter” (I don’t believe in timely coincidence here) and thats bad. But I also (and I wrote it in the forum before) think the physical limitations argument is weak in itself. And especially the claim that we know those limits since decades. This discounts every progress in training, nutrition, material (and I am completely aware those are blowing out of proportion by teams and riders to justify everything). Or cross generational talent. I prefer hard evidence tbh. Obviously 3 riders climbing faster than Pantani while for over 2 decades being a totally unreachable benchmark is a strong indication but again, no evidence.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Different sports.

I'm pretty sure VO2 max and 3-5 minute W/kg have improved much less explosively across the board than the longer efforts in cycling.

Then you have the simple difference that cycling is weight bearing so there's more biomechanical load issues you need to measure with training.

Then you have the simple fact that cycling has multi hour races with all effort levels in there and often including maximal 10-40 minute efforts in a depleted state which you don't really have.

All these together may simply mean cyclists wlil benefit more from year round doped up training even if runners were to use the same stuff.

3-5' efforts already had a big jump in the 2010's, Alaphilippe/Gilbert/Valverde/Roglic did some ridiculous stuff on the shorter climbs during that era, already trashing (or coming very close on the longer stuff like Mende) the 90's records. I sometimes wonder if it was a sign of what was to come.

 

[Red Rick]

3-5' efforts already had a big jump in the 2010's, Alaphilippe/Gilbert/Valverde/Roglic did some ridiculous stuff on the shorter climbs during that era, already trashing (or coming very close on the longer stuff like Mende) the 90's records. I sometimes wonder if it was a sign of what was to come.

Shorter efforts, especially when you get a clear anaerobic component, simply benefit less from oxygen vector doping. In short, a VO2 max effort will be 3-5 minutes usually, but if you do a test you'll go way beyond 1.0 RER and produce significant work anaerobically, and I think the anaerobic side did benefit from better training, lighter gears (doing 7 W/kg on massive gears never made sense), and indeed different PEDs.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Why is it they call him Mark S.? It's not like his identity is a secret.

There's not really anything surprising in these articles (not for people like us, that is), but it's nice to see that the Germans are still willing to cover these issues.

 

[Red Rick]

I listened to the ARD podcast today. Its quite light on real investigative content. Good listen nevertheless. It basically circles around five topics:

(i) the INEOS guy that was in the Mark S. Aderlass network, previously already at Team Sky (Froome and Wiggins era) and in the meantime somewhere else, now back at Ineos. They had access to chat messages with Mark S., where he speaks about meeting the Slovenian team at the World Championships and buying stuff at a Slovenian MedTech distributor. They can’t name him since the limitation period for his Aderlass involvement has run out (as it has for others with the UCI not willing to prosecute them). Thats also the most interesting part.

(ii) the Slovenian MedTech distributor (Medi Tehna) where they requested to buy a device to administer blood doping (and after some initial push back would have been able to get it). As said, Aderlass used them already but as someone that has some insights in the MedTech area (work related), I can basically assure you that this would be possible in literally every country and with probably most distributors (the samller the better). I would also argue its really not the job of those companies to check credibility of companies buying from them (ARD even set up a fake company). So thats almost non news to me.

iii) peptides, especially AICAR. I think peptides are an immensely interesting research field. And in the specific case of AICAR as AMPK activator - there are apparently 166 variations with directionally similar effects but only 4 are on the WADA list. Which doesn’t mean the other 162 analogues are not prohibited (. But it means they are not tested for. I personally have no doubt research peptides are used.

(iv) Jonas’ carbon monoxide rebreathing photo, the proven use by various teams (also incl. UAE) and now the ban. I am pretty certain teams used that beyond testing because its simply non detectable. Heck, its non detectable still unless you get caught in the act.

(v) the end of contract (with ASO) after the 2015 Tour with Pierre Sallet’s data provider company after he talked sceptical about the numbers seen vs. physical limitations. Ofc it was because of him being a “nest polluter” (I don’t believe in timely coincidence here) and thats bad. But I also (and I wrote it in the forum before) think the physical limitations argument is weak in itself. And especially the claim that we know those limits since decades. This discounts every progress in training, nutrition, material (and I am completely aware those are blowing out of proportion by teams and riders to justify everything). Or cross generational talent. I prefer hard evidence tbh. Obviously 3 riders climbing faster than Pantani while for over 2 decades being a totally unreachable benchmark is a strong indication but again, no evidence.

How important do you think the weakness of the bio passport is with a number of cases falling through like the Kreuziger case. Do you reckon today's top dogs may have crazy blood profiles but authorities have just given up on prosecuting because of the money backing these riders and because they may already have a crazy baseline.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Shorter efforts, especially when you get a clear anaerobic component, simply benefit less from oxygen vector doping. In short, a VO2 max effort will be 3-5 minutes usually, but if you do a test you'll go way beyond 1.0 RER and produce significant work anaerobically, and I think the anaerobic side did benefit from better training, lighter gears (doing 7 W/kg on massive gears never made sense), and indeed different PEDs.

You're right about the gearing and different PEDs , 3'+ efforts are still mostly aerobic though.

But in context this actually make sense, we are seeing riders who have both an incredible threshold and a massive anaerobic kick nowadays (ok that incredible threshold helps them with staying fresh for that final kick tbf).
This might be the result of the "good old" 2010's stuff that seems to have helped back then on top of new PEDs.

 

[Shakes]

Interesting ARD stuff! Although, those don't explain the improvements in recent years. Nonetheless important to realize that with AICAR there are so many substitutes which are not covered or can't be found in tests... That testing is quite meaningless. Not a stretch there are various others that it applies to, including something in recent years. It's getting more spread across teams (as did EPO) but what it is... And if there really is such a a thing. No idea!