State of the Peloton 2026

[AmRacer]

yep. They seem a step lower than Mapei.

Red Bull themselves may be the ones to implement change. They have no problems cheating to win. See what Verstappen was doing against Hamilton in 2021

Max won, that's all.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Shouldn't the performances of Paul Seixas, Hector Alvarez, Jarno Widar and Nordhagen just this week boost our confidence in the notion that the sport is pretty clean?

I seriously doubt that talented teenagers are being offered doping products by their teams and coaches in their starting years.

Of course, if it was by using doping products that they got there in the first place then well, not great, but no evidence for that.

 

[Netserk]

Shouldn't the performances of Paul Seixas, Hector Alvarez, Jarno Widar and Nordhagen just this week boost our confidence in the notion that the sport is pretty clean?

I seriously doubt that talented teenagers are being offered doping products by their teams and coaches in their starting years.

Of course, if it was by using doping products that they got there in the first place then well, not great, but no evidence for that.

teenagers outclimbing the strongest fully grown up dopers of the past because the sport is clean

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Shouldn't the performances of Paul Seixas, Hector Alvarez, Jarno Widar and Nordhagen just this week boost our confidence in the notion that the sport is pretty clean?

I seriously doubt that talented teenagers are being offered doping products by their teams and coaches in their starting years.

Of course, if it was by using doping products that they got there in the first place then well, not great, but no evidence for that.

Why should they not? Is there any indication that starting to dope early diminishes the effects of doping later on? Because if not I don't see a reason why they shoudln't if they run a doping program. Yes, it's not a very ethical thing to do, but so is a doping program to begin with, so that hurdle is passed already.

 

[Pozzovivo]

You know the counterarguments to comparing w/kg in era's, so I'm not going to fall for that bait comment. I think, cetirus paribus, that young riders entering the scene and being competitive against the best is a good sign. Especially when they come from french teams.

If comparing eras is relevant: Teenage competitiveness didn't happen in the known doping eras of 90's and early 2000's. But many things changed between then and now so...

 

[Netserk]

You know the counterarguments to comparing w/kg in era's,

compare 2017 / 2018 with torres on finestre

 

[Pozzovivo]

Why should they not? Is there any indication that starting to dope early diminishes the effects of doping later on? Because if not I don't see a reason why they shoudln't if they run a doping program. Yes, it's not a very ethical thing to do, but so is a doping program to begin with, so that hurdle is passed already.

For ethical reasons yes. It is a difference between offering drugs to grown men and teenagers, basically everyone agrees with this. I work with medical professionals and age is a very relevant consideration for ethical practice.

But to follow your logic, why didn't they before? Many accounts of riders who said that this was something that was offered to senior riders and leaders. Only with time did they get the same stuff.

 

[Pozzovivo]

compare 2017 / 2018 with torres on finestre

I know how a stopwatch works, your point being?

 

[Netserk]

For ethical reasons yes. It is a difference between offering drugs to grown men and teenagers, basically everyone agrees with this. I work with medical professionals and age is a very relevant consideration for ethical practice.

But to follow your logic, why didn't they before? Many accounts of riders who said that this was something that was offered to senior riders and leaders. Only with time did they get the same stuff.

cost of frozen blood bags twenty years ago were too high for that , and with antidoping that back then actually tried to catch dopers , it was more risky the more riders you doped hard

now no one gets caught and you lock up young riders for five years . whatever they use, they can boost their values from the get go

 

[Tim Cahill]

No specific reason to believe any of the young riders are on anything but I wouldn't think their youth exonerates them either, access to drugs and drug instruction has never been easier and more accepted in society. 10 years ago there was a massive social stigma around anabolic usage that just no longer exists today.

My nephew today was showing me the big livestreamers the young lads are into nowadays, adolescences who openly endorse anabolic steroid use, in gyms it's not even an open secret anymore, I wouldn't think some cycling teams or the kids on them have any problems accessing stuff if they are that way inclined.

Hopefully not obviously, Sexais said he hadn't seen his family or girlfriend for 3 months training for Algarve, not worth it, give it up and go and play with your friends for a few years then come back.

 

[Netserk]

I know how a stopwatch works, your point being?

that equipment etc . only makes a very small difference then compared to now

what is it that torres had available in 2024 that quintana, froome et al . didnt back then that makes such a huge difference ?

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

For ethical reasons yes. It is a difference between offering drugs to grown men and teenagers, basically everyone agrees with this. I work with medical professionals and age is a very relevant consideration for ethical practice.

But to follow your logic, why didn't they before? Many accounts of riders who said that this was something that was offered to senior riders and leaders. Only with time did they get the same stuff.

Because of professionalization. If you make it more competetive to even enter pro cycling, you'll get more performance optimization.

And sadly for a lot of people ethical considerations don't play a role, I know someone who was doped when she was in puperty for example. That was weight lifting, okay, but still - no ethical consideration stopped her coaches. And she wasn't even competitive, she was just doped because that was how they were operating. Needless to say it *** up her health.

 

[Pozzovivo]

cost of frozen blood bags twenty years ago were too high for that , and with antidoping that back then actually tried to catch dopers , it was more risky the more riders you doped hard

now no one gets caught and you lock up young riders for five years . whatever they use, they can boost their values from the get go

Cost is part of the consideration for sure. Why do you have the impression that 'AD is not trying to catch anyone anymore?

 

[Pozzovivo]

Because of professionalization. If you make it more competetive to even enter pro cycling, you'll get more performance optimization.

And sadly for a lot of people ethical considerations don't play a role, I know someone who was doped when she was in puperty for example. That was weight lifting, okay, but still - no ethical consideration stopped her coaches. And she wasn't even competitive, she was just doped because that was how they were operating. Needless to say it *** up her health.

I'm sorry to hear about that instance. Not suggesting that there are not bad actors out there. I have my doubts over some teams and their talent...

But even if we look away from the questionable people in the sport, and look at Groupama-FDJ for instance. I don't know about any evidence that suggest that they are doping their riders or have been the last 10 years. They seem to run a clean shop and actually dared to speak up about that in the 23 TDF.

Lenny Martinez did fantastic performances as a teenagers, Greogire too, and now Decomble is very strong. Would they be competitive if the sport is filled with cheaters who use very powerful PEDs (judging from the performances)? I think it's a good sign overall.

 

[Pozzovivo]

that equipment etc . only makes a very small difference then compared to now

what is it that torres had available in 2024 that quintana, froome et al . didnt back then that makes such a huge difference ?

Why not compare to this years time instead so we can account for equipment at least. Yates was faster right, and comparing specific climbing times is not the most perferct measure of this.

Let me be clear: I don't know why everyone is so freaking fast these days, it's a major puzzle for me as an outsider. But I hear and see nothing that really suggest doping as the explanation. Why not?

The 90's and 00' were filled with evidence of doping against riders and teams.

 

[Netserk]

Cost is part of the consideration for sure. Why do you have the impression that 'AD is not trying to catch anyone anymore?

impression is from their success , from the lesson of their past successes , from the economic might teams and riders have for lawfare

froome was never supposed to even have been a case

i think its been a long boil , but you know the saying . first gradually ...

Why not compare to this years time instead so we can account for equipment at least. Yates was faster right.

because the increased performance is due to new doping , which shates also benefitted from .

if the story is that the sport is clean , you cannot run with that explanation for the past ten years

Let me be clear: I don't know why everyone is so freaking fast these days, it's a major puzzle for me as an outsider. But I hear and see nothing that really suggest doping as the explanation. Why not?

The 90's and 00' were filled with evidence of doping against riders and teams.

for the same reason i hear nothing about football

cycling has learned its lesson

 

[Pozzovivo]

due to new doping

Or any of the other plausible explanations. The level can improve a lot without doping being the reason over the last ten years.

Not sure about AD success - they caught a lot of kenyans when they tried there! One lesson is that it is a lot easier to suspend/prosecute small fish than big fish. The money argument is relevant I agree.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Or any of the other plausible explanations. The level can improve a lot without doping being the reason over the last ten years.

Not sure about AD success - they caught a lot of kenyans when they tried there! One lesson is that it is a lot easier to suspend/prosecute small fish than big fish. The money argument is relevant I agree.

That's the thing. Where are the plausible explanations? Nowhere to be found. Instead we get the same old magical super improvement of nutrition and equipment stories they sold us already decades ago. Because mind you we are not talking about marginal improvements here. Human physiology doesn't change and, neither do the pitfalls of a competition economy and professional sports in general. And we are talking about a sport in which super shady individuals from the dark ages are not just present, they are running the most successful team for example.
On top of that the difference in performance to the post Fuentes era is so wild, you'd think they are doing a different sport. Of course eras are not perfectly comparable, but that doesn't exclude any comparison.
But even if we take a look in this era, what happend in the last few years is outlandish when it comes to performance improvement.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

This may very well be a BS story cause I heard it from a guy who once lied to me about a girl I liked having a crush on me, but someone who went to my school was allegedly offered drugs multiple times while riding some low level races in the US as a teenager. When he ultimately gave in to temptation, his improved results led to him getting selected for testing which then resulted in a ban.

I seem to recall that I looked it up on the website for the Danish federation at the time and got the suspension confirmed, but I am not at all sure. Anyway, it was 15 years ago so even if it's true it probably don't tell us much about the junior scene of today.

 

[Pozzovivo]

That's the thing. Where are the plausible explanations? Nowhere to be found. Instead we get the same old magical super improvement of nutrition and equipment stories they sold us already decades ago. Because mind you we are not talking about marginal improvements here. Human physiology doesn't change and, neither do the pitfalls of a competition economy and professional sports in general. And we are talking about a sport in which super shady individuals from the dark ages are not just present, they are running the most successful team for example.
On top of that the difference in performance to the post Fuentes era is so wild, you'd think they are doing a different sport. Of course eras are not perfectly comparable, but that doesn't exclude any comparison.
But even if we take a look in this era, what happend in the last few years is outlandish when it comes to performance improvement.

Look, I very much agree with the sentiment of your post. Something crazy has happened and it requires an explanantion.

So far, most are not convinced that improvements in training, nutrition or equipement is the full or even accounts for the majority of the difference from say 10 years ago. I have noe experitse in that but I'll agree that it seems a bit strange. I don't mean to say that between era comparisons have no merit, but I think they are very noisy. Too noisy. Bardet also improved his watts by a lot in those years even though his results were slightly declining. He was proably clean in both era's and I really trust him.

I don't think we need to be subtle about it, it stinks that Gianetti is the manager of the most successful team. I hate that and wish he was banned for life. I don't believe that Pogacar is clean or Vingegaard for that matter. Those two are not beatable by the best teenagers. It's just a different league.

I'm more broadly speaking about the ability of younger riders to do well, I think it is probably positive, no pun intended. I feel that through increased information availability around traning and all else, top performance is much more democratized than it was in the dark ages.

 

[Pozzovivo]

This may very well be a BS stor cause I heard it from a guy who once lied to me about a girl I liked having a crush on me, but someone who went to my school was allegedly offered drugs multiple times while riding some low level races in the US as a teenager

One of the all time best first sentences I've read on this forum! I hope you found love.

 

[Netserk]

Bardet also improved his watts by a lot in those years even though his results were slightly declining. He was proably clean in both era's and I really trust him.

how much do you think a blood bag improve performance

would he easily dominate the tour if he had just given in to temptation

 

[Netserk]

chris horner published his blood values from the 2013 vuelta . they were consistent with the use of blood bags , as one would already expect him to use

i think he indicates the lower bound of the boost you could get in that era . it was big

 

[Pozzovivo]

how much do you think a blood bag improve performance

would he easily dominate the tour if he had just given in to temptation

I'm just guessing here based on accounts from doctors and cyclist. Don't take my word on it but old school 500ml bb? Maybe 3-5% on singular efforts. Probably more in real terms given the improved ability to race and train hard over an extended period.

I definitely think Bardet would have cleaned Froome in those tours, yes.

Edit: For refernce, I think the estimates show that Remco was about 3-5% worse than Pog in TDF 24 on most big climbs.

 

[Pozzovivo]

chris horner published his blood values from the 2013 vuelta . they were consistent with the use of blood bags , as one would already expect him to use

i think he indicates the lower bound of the boost you could get in that era . it was big

Coudl you provide a source? never seen that!