Stephen Roche 1987

[Stravoski]

So how did Stephen Roche manage to win the Giro and Tour double in 1987. With only eighteen days between the end of the Giro and the start of the Tour there is no way he would of been any where near fully recovered to perform in the Tour and win it. So the question is what drugs did he take. Oh and lets not forget La Plagne and his remarkable recovery to compete the following day.

 

[2008885]

Er, no idea really - what do you think?

 

[mb2612]

Not sure what for exactly, but he was named in one of those doctor lists that occasionally surface.

 

[hrotha]

Not sure what for exactly, but he was named in one of those doctor lists that occasionally surface.

EPO, in Conconi's files, circa 1993.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

He was probably take a dose of hypocrisy too.

 

[2008885]

Yes, he may of was be take a course in English as well possibly isn't it.

 

[Le breton]

Yes, he may of was be take a course in English as well possibly isn't it.

love it

 

[TourOfSardinia]

me too
time for shut eye before commit I errors more..

 

[Ferminal]

How juvenile.

 

[Hugh Januss]

How juvenile.

Is that an official mod stance on the exchange?

 

[Stravoski]

Er, no idea really - what do you think?

With no direct answer (evidence) to what pharmaceuticals he injected or even ingested. One can only speculate. For example, blood doping, cortisone injections, synthetic testosterone.

 

[Caruut]

Other than results, is there anything particularly suspicious about that year?

I believe he was in a contract year, and needed results after a couple of bad years. However, those bad years had been brought about by several rounds of knee surgery. Possibly a lot of painkillers + a standard kind of mix of drugs for the time? I keep meaning to get his book, but Laurent Fignon is pretty open about what he was using.

 

[simoni]

Whatever preparation he was using I think we can be sure it wasn't as effective as what's about now, or has been about since 1987.

With this in mind, how do we reconcile the fact that the Giro/Tour double was frequently attempted back in t' day (i.e. leaders would go to both races with ambitions to fight for the overall) whereas now, with a longer recovery too, its considered not far off impossible?

 

[Caruut]

In a way, the longer recover isn't necessarily a help. With a shorter recovery, you should maintain the fitness without needing to do extra racing days between the two races, which could end up better come the 3rd week of the Tour.

 

[MrRoboto]

With this in mind, how do we reconcile the fact that the Giro/Tour double was frequently attempted back in t' day (i.e. leaders would go to both races with ambitions to fight for the overall) whereas now, with a longer recovery too, its considered not far off impossible?

Slower racing overall. E.g. the transport stages really was just transport stages.

 

[pmcg76]

Slower racing overall. E.g. the transport stages really was just transport stages.

Was gonna say this, the Giro of old was famous for the easy stages. I remember riders saying the racing only really started inside the last hour when the TV cameras showed up. Before that they just cruised along all day.

 

[Stravoski]

It's interesting to note that the 1987 Tour consisted of 25 stages + the prologue. Covering 4231 km. With six major mountain stages. A team time trial. Four individual time trials. ( Including the prologue )
Stage 10 TT was 54 miles !!. Won by Roche. Stage 18 was a mountain time trial - 23 miles to Mont Ventoux.

So quite an exceptionally difficult Tour. Twenty six days of racing. Just two days
short of four weeks.

 

[Maxiton]

Whatever preparation he was using I think we can be sure it wasn't as effective as what's about now, or has been about since 1987.

With this in mind, how do we reconcile the fact that the Giro/Tour double was frequently attempted back in t' day (i.e. leaders would go to both races with ambitions to fight for the overall) whereas now, with a longer recovery too, its considered not far off impossible?

I attribute it to the development of periodized training. Once this happened, physiologists and sports doctors looked at the double and said, impossible! Riders were (sometimes) able to do it, because they didn't know they weren't supposed to.

In a way, the longer recover isn't necessarily a help. With a shorter recovery, you should maintain the fitness without needing to do extra racing days between the two races, which could end up better come the 3rd week of the Tour.

That's actually my less flippant answer. When the Tours were closer together, the peak cycle was more manageable.

 

[BotanyBay]

So how did Stephen Roche manage to win the Giro and Tour double in 1987. With only eighteen days between the end of the Giro and the start of the Tour there is no way he would of been any where near fully recovered to perform in the Tour and win it. So the question is what drugs did he take. Oh and lets not forget La Plagne and his remarkable recovery to compete the following day.

Read this:

At the Winter Olympics in 1993/94 in Lillehammer, Conconi gave a talk to members of the International Olympic Committee and informed them about his work on an EPO test. He described how he had carried out controlled experiments with 23 amateur triathletes and other athletes with EPO treatments but that he had not come up with a test to detect EPO use. The details of Conconi's 23 amateur athletes were later discovered by police after a raid at the University of Ferrara and that there were no 23 amateurs but elite professionals, six of which were from the Carrera Jeans-Tassoni cycling team.[12]

Conconi had listed subjects' names, gender, sport, date of analysis as well as whether or not they were treated with EPO. Despite funding by CONI and the IOC to come up with an EPO detection test, Conconi was using the money to buy the drug and then administered it to athletes who were also paying Conconi.[12] Conconi is said to have made a technique to balance EPO, Blood Thinner and Human Growth Hormone in a mixture that Athletes could take safely and pass doping tests without testing positive. With this ability to safely take EPO, Donati estimated that 60 to 70% of the peloton used EPO in the mid 1990s.[13]

The team doctor of the Carrera cycling team, Dr. Giovanni Grazzi, worked with Professor Conconi at the University in 1993[9] while the following year, 1994, another professional cycling team, Gewiss-Ballan, were connected to Conconi via Doctors Michele Ferrari and Ilario Casoni. In addition a number of well known cycling stars were clients of the Institute.[2] The Gewiss team attracted a lot of negative attention when after taking the whole podium in the La Flèche Wallonne Classic in 1994, Ferrari in an interview with the French Sports Daily L'Equipe, compared using EPO to drinking orange juice.[14] Bjarne Riis the 1996 Tour de France winner was a rider of the Gewiss team and was treated with EPO in 1994 and 1995 in Conconi's Institute in Ferrara. During the 1996 season Riis was coached with one of Conconi's assistants Cecchini and would win the Tour de France.[15]

It would be reported in the Rome based newspaper, La Republica, in January 2000 that Conconi was involved with administering EPO to riders on the Carrera.[16] In March 2000 the Italian Judge Franca Oliva published a report detailing the conclusions of an investigation into a number of sports doctors including Professor Conconi.[17] This official judicial investigation concluded that the riders of the Carrera team were administered EPO in 1993.[12] The riders included Stephen Roche, Claudio Chiappucci,[18] Guido Bontempi, Rolf Sørensen, Mario Chiesa, Massimo Ghirotto and Fabio Roscioli.[9]

Files seized as part of the judicial investigation allegedly detail a number of aliases for former Tour de France, Giro d'Italia winner and World Champion Stephen Roche including Rocchi, Rossi, Rocca, Roncati, Righi and Rossini.[19]

In 1997, Claudio Chiappucci told prosecutor Vincenzo Scolastico that he had been using EPO since 1993, but later he recalled that statement.[20] Marco Pantani was part of the Carrera Jeans-Tassoni team and his hematocrit level displayed rises and falls which looked very suspicious. On October 18, 1995 Pantani was taken to hospital after an accident in the Milano–Torino race where a hematocrit percentage of 60.1% whereas in the previous June it had been 45%.[21][22] At this time there was no limit to the hematocrit level but the large fluctuation was suspicious.

Conconi was the pioneer of not only EPO, but transfusion-based blood doping (which he'd been utilizing since 1980) and Conconi was the medical specialist for Roche's Carerra Jeans team at the time.

 

[ultimobici]

Read this:



Conconi was the pioneer of not only EPO, but transfusion-based blood doping (which he'd been utilizing since 1980) and Conconi was the medical specialist for Roche's Carerra Jeans team at the time.

Nothing like skewing the facts to fit your theory is there. That quote lifted from Wikipedia refers to the 1990's not the 1980's and well you know it. Roche was mentioned in Conconi's files from the second time he rode for Carrera not the first, there is no mention of 1986 or 1987, nor any reference to Peugeot, La Redoute, Fagor or Tonton Tapis.

 

[BotanyBay]

Nothing like skewing the facts to fit your theory is there. That quote lifted from Wikipedia refers to the 1990's not the 1980's and well you know it. Roche was mentioned in Conconi's files from the second time he rode for Carrera not the first, there is no mention of 1986 or 1987, nor any reference to Peugeot, La Redoute, Fagor or Tonton Tapis.

Conconi was connected to blood doping starting in 1980. He is the guy who pioneered bringin EPO into cycling. Ferarri solidified the position.

 

[ultimobici]

Conconi was connected to blood doping starting in 1980. He is the guy who pioneered bringin EPO into cycling. Ferarri solidified the position.

I understand that perfectly well. My issue is with the way you link an article from Wikipedia and paint it as fact suggesting that Conconi was working with Carrera in 1987 when there is no evidence to support such an assertion. That article refers to 1993 onwards. Are we to believe that Conconi only started recording data 6 years plus into the relationship?

 

[BotanyBay]

I understand that perfectly well. My issue is with the way you link an article from Wikipedia and paint it as fact suggesting that Conconi was working with Carrera in 1987 when there is no evidence to support such an assertion. That article refers to 1993 onwards. Are we to believe that Conconi only started recording data 6 years plus into the relationship?

When do you think Dr. Conconi started working with Mr Roche?

 

[hrotha]

When do you think Dr. Conconi started working with Mr Roche?

Perhaps he doesn't know, and because he doesn't know he isn't jumping to conclusions based on data separated by 6 years.

 

[ultimobici]

When do you think Dr. Conconi started working with Mr Roche?

Who knows? But judging by the fact that none of the other Carrera guinea pigs rose to prominence until after Roche had left the team it's pretty evident that it was not a factor in 1987.