Stephen Roche 1987

[ultimobici]

Perhaps he doesn't know, and because he doesn't know he isn't jumping to conclusions based on data separated by 6 years.

Thankyou. I don't accept doping and am disappointed by any rider who succumbs. But I am not one to condone the lynch mob attitude that some espouse.

 

[Maxiton]

The thing is, Roche and his trainers could have arrived at some sort of rudimentary periodized training (without calling it that) through trial and error. He could have peaked in both races, slightly higher in the Tour than in the Giro. Perhaps if he could have blood doped he would have, but as far as I know no one here has been able to demonstrate that blood doping was used in the peloton in 1987.

 

[Kerbdog]

Im not trying to derail this thread but would just like to mention this. Would any of you believe that i actually met Stephens brother Lawrence yesterday? Remember him?? Still in good shape. Met him at Stephens annual sportive in Ireland. Anyway sorry for this interruption.

 

[Maxiton]

The thing is, Roche and his trainers could have arrived at some sort of rudimentary periodized training (without calling it that) through trial and error. He could have peaked in both races, slightly higher in the Tour than in the Giro. Perhaps if he could have blood doped he would have, but as far as I know no one here has been able to demonstrate that blood doping was used in the peloton in 1987.

In fact, if the Giro's third week was hardest, and Roche won, then he probably said to himself, afterwards, I'm going to do as little as possible for the next week; and then, following that week, he started to prepare for the Tour. Three to five weeks after the end of the Giro, the Tour gets harder, and, boom, Roche hits his second peak. No doping and no knowledge of periodization needed. And this could have been made even more effective by whatever riding and training Roche might have done before the Giro.

 

[Le breton]

Other than results, is there anything particularly suspicious about that year?

........ but Laurent Fignon is pretty open about what he was using.

I wish I could believe that, but I stopped believing in fairy tales a long time ago.

 

[Benotti69]

If Roche was blood doping in 1987, why was he a shadow of himself after that if he managed to perfect it in '87?

There is a story in Kimmage's Rough Ride where Roche(Fagor'88-89) demanded a race be tested and only agreed to ride if it was, an after tour Crit i think, but the organisers lied and Roche was upset about it!

My opinion on Roche, apart from the evidence found that he was part of the Conconi riders in the 90s is that he did use PEDs. But did he use EPO/blood doping in 1987? I think we would have found dots that would link him and several riders to this practice at that time in the teams he rode for.

Roche's vitriol against Kimmage in 1990 led me to think he used during his career, but when did he start? ............"official judicial investigation unequivocally found that Roche was administered EPO in 1993, his last year in the peloton", which he only won 1 race, a post TdF crit, when he was only 34 the same age Cuddles/Armstrong won TdFs.

 

[BotanyBay]

Who knows? But judging by the fact that none of the other Carrera guinea pigs rose to prominence until after Roche had left the team it's pretty evident that it was not a factor in 1987.

OK, I'll give you that.

 

[rhubroma]

Thankyou. I don't accept doping and am disappointed by any rider who succumbs. But I am not one to condone the lynch mob attitude that some espouse.

The question which begs to be asked, however, is when exactly did Conconi begin to experiment with EPO? Some would have it as early as Moser's hour record in 84.

 

[Merckx index]

The question which begs to be asked, however, is when exactly did Conconi begin to experiment with EPO? Some would have it as early as Moser's hour record in 84.

You mean blood transfusions, which certainly were occurring at that time. Not EPO, though, which had not even been cloned then.

 

[Caruut]

I wish I could believe that, but I stopped believing in fairy tales a long time ago.

As I said, I haven't read it, but I was under that impression. I thought he admitted to taking amphetamines and cortisone.

 

[MarkvW]

You mean blood transfusions, which certainly were occurring at that time. Not EPO, though, which had not even been cloned then.

How did blood transfusions work back then, when the blood-doping racers were actually racing so much? Withdrawals during the season would seem to be an open invitation to weakness and illnesses.

 

[BotanyBay]

The question which begs to be asked, however, is when exactly did Conconi begin to experiment with EPO? Some would have it as early as Moser's hour record in 84.

I doubt even HE could get EPO samples in '84. It was the domain of anemic lab rats then.

 

[BotanyBay]

How did blood transfusions work back then, when the blood-doping racers were actually racing so much? Withdrawals during the season would seem to be an open invitation to weakness and illnesses.

I'm sure there was a lot of back-and-forth as far as data sharing between those who were experimenting with it.
It would be difficult to optimize these processes without bouncing data and ideas off of more than one set of docs and coaches. Leading me to believe that while technically "secret", pretty much everyone was in on it. Even if you did not partake, you knew who partook.

 

[Nick777]

How did blood transfusions work back then, when the blood-doping racers were actually racing so much? Withdrawals during the season would seem to be an open invitation to weakness and illnesses.

Homologous?

 

[Caruut]

Homologous?

Do you mean heterologous?

It always used to be that you used someone else's blood, but it's much easier to test for foreign blood than it is to test for added native blood, so they switched to homologous after the tests started.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Do you mean heterologous?

It always used to be that you used someone else's blood, but it's much easier to test for foreign blood than it is to test for added native blood, so they switched to homologous after the tests started.

That is what he means. For some bizare reason homologous means someone else's blood and autologous means the transfuser's own blood.

 

[Bumeington]

That is what he means. For some bizare reason homologous means someone else's blood and autologous means the transfuser's own blood.

Hetrologous = different blood type, v.dangerous
Homologous = same blood type, different human
Autologus = own blood

 

[Caruut]

Hetrologous = different blood type, v.dangerous
Homologous = same blood type, different human
Autologus = own blood

Ah yeah, thanks for reminding me. Sorry for trying to correct someone who was actually right.

 

[Le breton]

As I said, I haven't read it, but I was under that impression. I thought he admitted to taking amphetamines and cortisone.

I thought he admitted to taking amphetamines and cortisone

That's also my understanding. However, would that + his injuries be enough to explain his highs and lows? I tend to think he left out big chunks of his doping history.

Before 1991 and big scale EPO usage it's hard to find among really big cycling stars somebody with so huge fluctuations in form.

In a good day he could beat Herrera on an uphill TT, yet on the Ventoux TT (TdF) on July 19, 1987, he finished 9:09 behind Jeff Bernard (7:30 behind Herrera) in 64th position out of 164 racers. One could find many examples of his staggering highs and lows.

 

[jamiephillips]

Also to win the '87 Giro Roche had to disobey the team orders to ride for Visentini. One would have thought that had he been some kind of doping experiment, Roche might have received more team support than just Eddy Schepers and mechanic Valke? The three of them were even alleged to have had to eat at a separate table, such was the feeling of betrayal within the Carrera team.

 

[SirLes]

I thought he admitted to taking amphetamines and cortisone

That's also my understanding. However, would that + his injuries be enough to explain his highs and lows? I tend to think he left out big chunks of his doping history.

Before 1991 and big scale EPO usage it's hard to find among really big cycling stars somebody with so huge fluctuations in form.

In a good day he could beat Herrera on an uphill TT, yet on the Ventoux TT (TdF) on July 19, 1987, he finished 9:09 behind Jeff Bernard (7:30 behind Herrera) in 64th position out of 164 racers. One could find many examples of his staggering highs and lows.

Don't know where you got those figures from. I have he lost 2.19 to JFB, 40 secs to Herrera and 28 secs to Delgado. coming 5th on the stage.

 

[pmcg76]

Don't know where you got those figures from. I have he lost 2.19 to JFB, 40 secs to Herrera and 28 secs to Delgado. coming 5th on the stage.

I think he is referring to Fignon not Roche, it was confusing the first time I read it as well.

 

[ChrisE]

This is a stupid thread. PEDs were ineffective until approximately stage 13 of the 1991 TdF.

 

[Le breton]

Don't know where you got those figures from. I have he lost 2.19 to JFB, 40 secs to Herrera and 28 secs to Delgado. coming 5th on the stage.

Sorry, I didn't make it clear I was answering Caruut's comments about Fignon.

 

[cocteau_ireland]

Stravoski or whatever; u've taken a notion. The athlete achieve idea is foreign to you. I always think back to a first year (they call it neo now-wow) pro winning paris nice. Or 3rd tdf '85 r numerous other races. That epo thread is mighty: no-one can attribute to late 80's.