Study - Dopers could benefit 'for decades'

[Gavandope]

Wrong.

Hit your natural muscle size peak, go on AAS and get bigger.

Stop training for years, shrink back down, go back to training clean and you will reach a size larger than your original natural peak.

Also if you choose to go back on AAS you will find you need less than previously to reach a certain size.

That has been well discussed amongst bodybuilders. You are talking 'little' people who most likely aren't even near their genetic peak naturally. Once you juice and get bigger over your natural limit, it raises your 'natural limit'.

But that is specifically muscle tissue. EPO doesn't have any long term 'natural' boost above your standard levels.

That's how I've always seen it coming from an ex bodybuilding and roid doper angle. I trained for 2 years clean, hit a wall and juice smashed that well and truly down. As I know I'll never stick a needle in my arm or top outer glute ever again I know if I do decide to hit the weights harder which I may still do with my top half I have plenty of memory left in the bank.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

But that is specifically muscle tissue. EPO doesn't have any long term 'natural' boost above your standard levels.

I am curious about this. EPO is good for growing heart muscle, and for creating new blood vessels (angiogenic). (Beyond the Hct boost of new blood cells).

I wonder if there is a similar effect where your natural level of heart muscle size and blood vessel proliferation is altered by the ongoing use of EPO above baseline levels.

If the AAS increase in "natural muscle limit" works, it does not seem unreasonable to suggest EPO could have a similar, long term effect.

 

[Gavandope]

I am curious about this. EPO is good for growing heart muscle, and for creating new blood vessels (angiogenic). (Beyond the Hct boost of new blood cells).

I wonder if there is a similar effect where your natural level of heart muscle size and blood vessel proliferation is altered by the ongoing use of EPO above baseline levels.

If the AAS increase in "natural muscle limit" works, it does not seem unreasonable to suggest EPO could have a similar, long term effect.

I'm sure enlarged heart muscles, blood vessels and valves can also be attributed to roids/HGH too as a lot of roid dopers have died in later life as a consequence. I look back with hindsight and am relieved knowing I doped in moderation unlike others...

 

[zigmeister]

Wrong.

Hit your natural muscle size peak, go on AAS and get bigger.

Stop training for years, shrink back down, go back to training clean and you will reach a size larger than your original natural peak.

Also if you choose to go back on AAS you will find you need less than previously to reach a certain size.

That has been well discussed amongst bodybuilders. You are talking 'little' people who most likely aren't even near their genetic peak naturally. Once you juice and get bigger over your natural limit, it raises your 'natural limit'.

But that is specifically muscle tissue. EPO doesn't have any long term 'natural' boost above your standard levels.

First, there is only one steroid that is truly useful for cycling in an endurance fashion, that is equipoise and testosterone. Those will improve muscle strength and RBC count.

Cutting steroids, Anavar/Masteron, which won't increase RBC, they can help lose weight and maintain muscle. But they also have shown to reduce cardio fitness.

The effect is based on your human anatomy/physics, your muscles and the memory of muscle. That is the response I made to someone. Not some "lasting" elemental biological effect that the study "allegedly" says happens.

They use muscle memory as the basis of the stud. Read the first sentence of the abstract, it says exactly what I said.

So, you can take you big fat "wrong" statement you responded back at me with and admit your ignorance.


Abstract:

"Previous strength training with or without the use of anabolic steroids facilitates subsequent re-acquisition of muscle mass even after long intervening periods of inactivity. Based on in vivo and ex vivo microscopy we here propose a cellular memory mechanism residing in the muscle cells. Female mice were treated with testosterone propionate for 14 days, inducing a 66% increase in the number of myonuclei and a 77% increase in fibre cross-sectional area. Three weeks after removing the drug, fibre size was decreased to the same level as in sham treated animals, but the number of nuclei remained elevated for at least 3 months (>10% of the mouse lifespan). At this time, when the myonuclei-rich muscles were exposed to overload-exercise for 6 days, the fibre cross-sectional area increased by 31% while control muscles did not grow significantly. We suggest that the lasting, elevated number of myonuclei constitutes a cellular memory facilitating subsequent muscle overload hypertrophy. Our findings might have consequences for the exclusion time of doping offenders. Since the ability to generate new myonuclei is impaired in the elderly our data also invites speculation that it might be beneficial to perform strength training when young in order to benefit in senescence."

Your point is how it helps somebody get "huge", worst thing in cycling to be is "huge", except track racing in short distances.

The main affect is still "muscle memory", steroids don't make your muscles "remember". They say the nuclei in the muscle increases which help somebody return back to a previous level.

But, it was only a few weeks later, not 10yrs...they don't have any evidence/proof it does this. Nobody has done any testing like this more than a few weeks, and it was on mice. Not humans.

 

[Gavandope]

First, there is only one steroid that is truly useful for cycling in an endurance fashion, that is equipoise and testosterone. Those will improve muscle strength and RBC count.

Cutting steroids, Anavar/Masteron, which won't increase RBC, they can help lose weight and maintain muscle. But they also have shown to reduce cardio fitness.

The effect is based on your human anatomy/physics, your muscles and the memory of muscle. That is the response I made to someone. Not some "lasting" elemental biological effect that the study "allegedly" says happens.

They use muscle memory as the basis of the stud. Read the first sentence of the abstract, it says exactly what I said.

So, you can take you big fat "wrong" statement you responded back at me with and admit your ignorance.


Abstract:

"Previous strength training with or without the use of anabolic steroids facilitates subsequent re-acquisition of muscle mass even after long intervening periods of inactivity. Based on in vivo and ex vivo microscopy we here propose a cellular memory mechanism residing in the muscle cells. Female mice were treated with testosterone propionate for 14 days, inducing a 66% increase in the number of myonuclei and a 77% increase in fibre cross-sectional area. Three weeks after removing the drug, fibre size was decreased to the same level as in sham treated animals, but the number of nuclei remained elevated for at least 3 months (>10% of the mouse lifespan). At this time, when the myonuclei-rich muscles were exposed to overload-exercise for 6 days, the fibre cross-sectional area increased by 31% while control muscles did not grow significantly. We suggest that the lasting, elevated number of myonuclei constitutes a cellular memory facilitating subsequent muscle overload hypertrophy. Our findings might have consequences for the exclusion time of doping offenders. Since the ability to generate new myonuclei is impaired in the elderly our data also invites speculation that it might be beneficial to perform strength training when young in order to benefit in senescence."

Your point is how it helps somebody get "huge", worst thing in cycling to be is "huge", except track racing in short distances.

The main affect is still "muscle memory", steroids don't make your muscles "remember". They say the nuclei in the muscle increases which help somebody return back to a previous level.

But, it was only a few weeks later, not 10yrs...they don't have any evidence/proof it does this. Nobody has done any testing like this more than a few weeks, and it was on mice. Not humans.

For cycling probably only just testosterone, for gc types probably Andriol to top up their levels during races. If you have ever seen a bottle of Equipoise with a horse on the front it does deter a roid doper to think it's a good idea injecting with it

Masteron and Nolvadex side by side post cycle...

There's been no studies done on humans about muscle memory after a long period since they doped with roids - but a vast swathe of anecdotal evidence does exist which supports the study linked in the topic of this post. I'm one of the many who will back their claims, despite my nature to accept only empirical studies but cannot ignore this kind of anecdotal smoking gun as very good but ultimately not totally proven kind of proof.

 

[ralphbert]

If the AAS increase in "natural muscle limit" works, it does not seem unreasonable to suggest EPO could have a similar, long term effect.

This is my opinion too. EPO allows you to train harder for longer without breaking down therefore you can realise more adaption. This "engine expansion" is separate from the immediate performance gains of more oxygen and doesn't go away.

 

[Master50]

This is my opinion too. EPO allows you to train harder for longer without breaking down therefore you can realise more adaption. This "engine expansion" is separate from the immediate performance gains of more oxygen and doesn't go away.

I felt this after a trip to Colorado. On My return I was a rocket, not so much faster as able to keep up when it got hard esp climbing. I so overloaded my muscles because I could work harder and longer. Unfortunately the altitude effect only lasted a week or so but I sure got a big block of training that week. This would be a very effective use of altitude tents used at sea level. EPO too of course

 

[ralphbert]

So imagine season after season of enhanced training. The cumulative effect must be significant.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

So imagine season after season of enhanced training. The cumulative effect must be significant.

And then stopping in 2006 and riding "clean".

43 year olds can beat 23 year olds.

 

[MonkeyFace]

For cycling? Sprinters maybe, but gc types use corticoids which have pretty much the opposite effect to anabolic steroids in your system. That's why some are like a bag of bones above the waist and use Edgar and bb's for their performance enhancement.

ah no. Corticosteroid help with recovery just like any other steroids. Lance tested positive for them back in 1999 at the TDF. Just like any steriod it helps with recovery. Before EPO, steriods were common before testing became better.

 

[Kicker661]

First, there is only one steroid that is truly useful for cycling in an endurance fashion, that is equipoise and testosterone. Those will improve muscle strength and RBC count.

Cutting steroids, Anavar/Masteron, which won't increase RBC, they can help lose weight and maintain muscle. But they also have shown to reduce cardio fitness.

The effect is based on your human anatomy/physics, your muscles and the memory of muscle. That is the response I made to someone. Not some "lasting" elemental biological effect that the study "allegedly" says happens.

They use muscle memory as the basis of the stud. Read the first sentence of the abstract, it says exactly what I said.

So, you can take you big fat "wrong" statement you responded back at me with and admit your ignorance.

Your point is how it helps somebody get "huge", worst thing in cycling to be is "huge", except track racing in short distances.

The main affect is still "muscle memory", steroids don't make your muscles "remember". They say the nuclei in the muscle increases which help somebody return back to a previous level.

But, it was only a few weeks later, not 10yrs...they don't have any evidence/proof it does this. Nobody has done any testing like this more than a few weeks, and it was on mice. Not humans.

So touchy?

You forgot to add Tren on your list.

Forget cutting steroids, it's all the same thing. You swap compounds for when you are doing contest prep, not when you are cycling. Just wondering have you juiced before or been around in those circles within sport or do you hold a masters in google?

How do you know Gavandope's use of the sauce hasn't set his natural peak higher? Forget muscle memory, as i said plenty of guys hitting their natural muscle peak, going on the juice and developing way past that point, going off and shrinking back but being able to hold a point higher than their initial peak. That is after years/decades off the sauce.

Sure, muscle memory gets it back but that isn't the topic. The topic is that if you get on the juice it sets your natural peak higher than it was before you used.

As bodybuilding is an endurance sport and hits the same fibres we use in cycling, it makes sense there is a benefit for cycling also given these pros are well and truely pushing their peak and going past it.


Who is to say those pros who have got caught doping and come back still winning or being top 10 haven't had their limits lifted from their previous doping? I see plenty mention Hesjedal in threads asking how can he be riding so strongly if he isn't doping? Perhaps this is something to ponder.

 

[Gavandope]

ah no. Corticosteroid help with recovery just like any other steroids. Lance tested positive for them back in 1999 at the TDF. Just like any steriod it helps with recovery. Before EPO, steriods were common before testing became better.

Ah yes. I started doping on anabolic steroids in 1988-89. Corticosteroids do pretty much the opposite of testosterone in the human body - they shed muscle and relieve muscular aches and pains. I heard of Eprex years before Festina and didnt join the dots as to what it was in terms of cycling till that 98 tour that it was EPO!