Stybar's 800g (<2lb) frame!!

[kiwirider]

Don't know if this should go here or as a ***** about the website ...

I was interested to read the "review" of Stybar's new bike - although as a Campag rider from way back, I so wish that he was still on the Merckx that he started the season on ...

Anyhow, the "review" makes for interesting reading, most especially this quote from Stybar: Plus, it’s 400g lighter than the previous bike I was riding

That, and the link in the "review" got me thinking and doing some simple maths ... and if what is written there is right, that means that Stybar's alloy frame weighs in at about 800g! Pretty amazing for a 54cm aluminium cross frame - which I thought typically come in around the 1400g mark ...

How I got to this is simple ...

According to a previous article on CN - and lots of other info on the web - X-nights have a posted weight of 1150g. (See: http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=/tech/2009/features/ridley_2010_launch09)

Stybar's kit is basically unchanged from when he was on the X-night. Biggest possible change that I can find is to go from 4ZA T50's to 404 Firecrests - worth about 40g (if you refer to real world weight charts rather than manufacturers' websites).

OK, so that leaves 360g of less weight to find ... and the only place left is the frame and fork ...

... to which I call bull****!

I suspect that this is really just a piece of bull**** advertorial from Specialized - either in its entirety or, if it was actually written by anyone from CN, with a massive feed of info from the company.

This isn't the first time I've seen this sort of thing ... a review of Jeremy Powers' Cannondale a couple of years back blew me away because, if CN's numbers for total bike weight were to be believed, they'd made his frame about 500g lighter than my identically sized one ...

It's a shame, because for the most part, the cyclocross side of this site seemed to avoid the techno-***, american-centric (I would say "anglo-centric", but I think that it's got even more geographically focused than that) crap that seems to be finding its way into the road reporting ... but looks like the same disease is here too ...

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

400g lighter? Stybar's exaggerating big time. Marketing BS from Special-lies.
Let's face it. Stybar won 2 WCs on Ridley. I bet he's a bit bummed to be downgrading to a Specialized alloy frame.

Interesting that Stybar is NOT on the Specialized Pro Carbon Crux. I haven't seen anyone on that bike.

 

[ultimobici]

Don't know if this should go here or as a ***** about the website ...

I was interested to read the "review" of Stybar's new bike - although as a Campag rider from way back, I so wish that he was still on the Merckx that he started the season on ...

Anyhow, the "review" makes for interesting reading, most especially this quote from Stybar: Plus, it’s 400g lighter than the previous bike I was riding

That, and the link in the "review" got me thinking and doing some simple maths ... and if what is written there is right, that means that Stybar's alloy frame weighs in at about 800g! Pretty amazing for a 54cm aluminium cross frame - which I thought typically come in around the 1400g mark ...

How I got to this is simple ...

According to a previous article on CN - and lots of other info on the web - X-nights have a posted weight of 1150g. (See: http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=/tech/2009/features/ridley_2010_launch09)

Stybar's kit is basically unchanged from when he was on the X-night. Biggest possible change that I can find is to go from 4ZA T50's to 404 Firecrests - worth about 40g (if you refer to real world weight charts rather than manufacturers' websites).

OK, so that leaves 360g of less weight to find ... and the only place left is the frame and fork ...

... to which I call bull****!

I suspect that this is really just a piece of bull**** advertorial from Specialized - either in its entirety or, if it was actually written by anyone from CN, with a massive feed of info from the company.

This isn't the first time I've seen this sort of thing ... a review of Jeremy Powers' Cannondale a couple of years back blew me away because, if CN's numbers for total bike weight were to be believed, they'd made his frame about 500g lighter than my identically sized one ...

It's a shame, because for the most part, the cyclocross side of this site seemed to avoid the techno-***, american-centric (I would say "anglo-centric", but I think that it's got even more geographically focused than that) crap that seems to be finding its way into the road reporting ... but looks like the same disease is here too ...

You're overlooking the switch to Sram Red in your calculations, as well as Specialized's carbon crankset.

Sram Red Mechs, Shifters, Cassette & Chain come in at 933g, Campag Record for the same items is 1023g. So there you have 90g. The cranks from Specialized come in at 675g including the BB30 bearings at 52g compared to Record at 673g, so 2g gained there.

Bars & stem have changed from near 400g for the FSA Plasmas to Zipp SC so no change there overall.

But according to Ridley's own figures the X-Night is 1280g for the frame. I doubt that includes the seat mast cap though. Bearing in mind my 2003 De Rosa Merak is 1200g in alloy, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Stybar's 2012 Crux is around a kilo making it almost 300g lighter than the old frame. Add that 300 to the 88g in the groupset and the 40g in the wheels and you're at 400g+.

 

[kiwirider]

You're overlooking the switch to Sram Red in your calculations, as well as Specialized's carbon crankset.

Sram Red Mechs, Shifters, Cassette & Chain come in at 933g, Campag Record for the same items is 1023g. So there you have 90g. The cranks from Specialized come in at 675g including the BB30 bearings at 52g compared to Record at 673g, so 2g gained there.

Bars & stem have changed from near 400g for the FSA Plasmas to Zipp SC so no change there overall.

But according to Ridley's own figures the X-Night is 1280g for the frame. I doubt that includes the seat mast cap though. Bearing in mind my 2003 De Rosa Merak is 1200g in alloy, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Stybar's 2012 Crux is around a kilo making it almost 300g lighter than the old frame. Add that 300 to the 88g in the groupset and the 40g in the wheels and you're at 400g+.

Nope - that's not the calculation that I get ...

First off, brain fade on my part for using the Fidea bike spec rather than the Campag equipped "Merckx". However, as the frame is apparently an X-Night that has been painted in Merckx colours, then the only issue in my calculation is for the groupset.

Anyhow, if I re-run the maths (can you tell that I'm in at work early this morning and not quite in the mood to start work??), I get much less of a difference than you do between the Record and Red components - only 65g. Main reason for that would be that I am taking weights from real world sites rather than the weights off either of the two manufacturers' websites. (That's to be fair to both...) I am also assuming that, as seems to be standard practice amongst 'crossers, he's riding the 1070 rather than the 1090 cassette ...

So that still leaves 335g to find ...

I also note the weight from Ridley's site that you took (serves me right for relying on CN for tech info when I'm complaining about their reporting on the same topic, ay?!). But even if we take the 1280g, that gives us a frame weight for the Crux of 945g ...

Which is where a second major factor comes in ... And that is, I think that you're forgetting that the Crux he's riding is an alloy - not the carbon model (which it seems none of the sponsored riders are actually riding ...). There's no way that bike is going to come in at the kilo marker - and if it was, I doubt that anyone would want to ride it on a cross course!

Just to back up that the numbers are Specialized marketing bull**** - check out this thread on Weight Weenies of people who have actually weighed the bike ... http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=87125 ....

So a 1500g or so weight from the frame and another 500-600g for the fork ... There's no way in hell that bike's 400g lighter than what he was on before ...

 

[DirtyWorks]

Just to back up that the numbers are Specialized marketing bull**** - check out this thread on Weight Weenies of people who have actually weighed the bike ... http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=87125 ....

So a 1500g or so weight from the frame and potentially another 500-600g for the fork ... There's no way in hell that bike's lighter than what he was on before ...

First, the Big-S is sourcing a cheaper frame as the model lives on in order to keep the profit margin alive over the years. That's good business!

Second, I think we've just discovered the EXACT reason for Nys' 'bad' performance in 2011!! He'll be mid-pack fodder if his kit gets heavier by another 200 grams with disc brakes!

Is it possible those are Big-S paint/stickers on a custom? It's happened before you know.

 

[kiwirider]

Is it possible those are Big-S paint/stickers on a custom? It's happened before you know.

Not sure, but here's a pretty detailed profile of the bike, tell me what you think:http://www.cxmagazine.com/zdenek-stybar-pink-specialized-crux-cyclocross-bike-pro-bike-profile

BTW - article confirms my (guess at the) use of the 1070 rather than 1090 cassette for the maths above ...

 

[ultimobici]

Nope - that's not the calculation that I get ...

First off, brain fade on my part for using the Fidea bike spec rather than the Campag equipped "Merckx". However, as the frame is apparently an X-Night that has been painted in Merckx colours, then the only issue in my calculation is for the groupset.

Anyhow, if I re-run the maths (can you tell that I'm in at work early this morning and not quite in the mood to start work??), I get much less of a difference than you do between the Record and Red components - only 65g. Main reason for that would be that I am taking weights from real world sites rather than the weights off either of the two manufacturers' websites. (That's to be fair to both...) I am also assuming that, as seems to be standard practice amongst 'crossers, he's riding the 1070 rather than the 1090 cassette ...

So that still leaves 335g to find ...

I also note the weight from Ridley's site that you took (serves me right for relying on CN for tech info when I'm complaining about their reporting on the same topic, ay?!). But even if we take the 1280g, that gives us a frame weight for the Crux of 945g ...

Which is where a second major factor comes in ... And that is, I think that you're forgetting that the Crux he's riding is an alloy - not the carbon model (which it seems none of the sponsored riders are actually riding ...). There's no way that bike is going to come in at the kilo marker - and if it was, I doubt that anyone would want to ride it on a cross course!

Just to back up that the numbers are Specialized marketing bull**** - check out this thread on Weight Weenies of people who have actually weighed the bike ... http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=87125 ....

So a 1500g or so weight from the frame and another 500-600g for the fork ... There's no way in hell that bike's 400g lighter than what he was on before ...

Stybar's bike is not just a custom painted frame. It's a custom geometry frame, so will not be built in the same factory as the frames referred to in the ww thread. It is easily possible to produce an alloy frame that is durable for competition use around 1kg. The reason is that the frame is produced for pure competition not to last for years. Cannondale were producing frames to buy below 1300g in 1993 so almost 20 years on it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Stybar has been supplied with frames around the 1kg mark for his cross campaign.

Several years ago I was at Dario Pegoretti's workshop in Caldonazzo. He had several old steel frames made from Excel tubing that were around the 1300g mark, in steel. His comment was that they were good for a week's racing then the bin. They weren't designed for longevity just to be light and stiff enough for the job in hand. Stybar only needs the bike to last for a race, not several years.

 

[kiwirider]

Cannondale were producing frames to buy below 1300g in 1993 so almost 20 years on it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Stybar has been supplied with frames around the 1kg mark for his cross campaign.

I love the way that you keep citing road bike weights to justify your position regarding a cyclocross bike ...

Cannondale weren't making cyclocross bikes in 1993 (at least not according to the catalogues that I just looked at - the XR800 and XS800 didn't appear until 1998) - and even then their lightest roadies had a claimed weight of 1275g (their 2.8 series) and their MTB frames claimed 1360g.

Although Cannondale claim a weight of 1275g for those early cross frames, it's interesting to see that their later versions actually got 225g heavier: http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/pro-bike-jeremy-powers-cannondale-cyclocross-23840/

So to restate what I said in my last reply to you, of course it's technically possible to build a 1kg cross frame, but who'd want to ride it - even if it was only intended to last one day? On that ground alone, I don't believe what was written there.

Oh, and to come back to my original point in starting this thread - that what we're really dealing with is a bull**** advertorial from Specialized that CN are trying to pass off as a proper review (eg., by putting one of their staff's names as author) - check out this site, and the disclaimer at the end of the review:
http://www.nutsbike.com/tag/netherlands

 

[DirtyWorks]

So to restate what I said in my last reply to you, of course it's technically possible to build a 1kg cross frame, but who'd want to ride it - even if it was only intended to last one day? On that ground alone, I don't believe what was written there.

The bikes are durable, just not like product for mass-market durable. So, a day->week use and done is over simplifying the reality of the situation.

No one will build a frame that is going to break on the race course, that's for sure. But there's lots of weight savings to be had designing a bike frame to be ridden maybe 1000 times. It will be plenty durable and a heck of a lot lighter!