Systematic doping of Kenyan runners

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May 16, 2012
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_nm___ said:
hi i've not read the whole thread so i may be saying something way off topic but:
Stefan Matschiner says in his book that all of his kenyan runners were doped and that, either they already had their own provider of doping products before getting under contract with him, or if they didn't, they would ask him for "help" and he would provided them, or they might use a mix of sources to get to their doping products.

so products don't always come from doctors.

and he never really sounds like there might have been an exception among his kenyans, they were all on something. but then again so were a lot of austrians, too.
the book goes from roughly 2003 up to 2008.

but i don't follow athletics so i can't remember any names.

i know Matschiner has collaborated with Seppelt after the former came out of prison. so Matschiner might have been one of the inspirations for this Seppelt documentary.

also, to answer your post, yes, this is flash news before london. Hajo Seppelt does exactly the same before every big event. he whinges about europeans and north americans being tested all year 'round while third world athletes can experiment with whatever they want. basically his message is "don't believe in it if it is somebody from the 3rd world who wins it". and it works unbelievably well, i know a lot of people in germany who believe just that now. this is sad.
last time he did it was just before or just around the big track event in berlin: this time it was a reportagem about the jamaicans.

he is biased, and in his interviews he doesn't even look like he knows a thing about doping, and he just seems to be whinging a lot more than trying to bring serious news, i find him manipulative (but that's my very personal impression), even though there is some truth in what he says
Thanks, did not read book, but as far I know he didn't mention names. Am I right about that?

Also those alleged doped Kenyans in his book were 3rd class runners who couldn't get faster even with nukes in their asses:D

I mean, some no name Austrian manager dude owning top worlds endurance runners and sell them 2nd class dope, come on. Hard to swallow:D
It is more sound like Matschiner trying to earn money on book for his after jail time.

But yes just month before London.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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Hugh Januss said:
Basically the message is if it is a sport in which you can make money and you don't like doping......don't believe the result no matter what the country in any sport where doping provides a measurable improvement. "Supplements" and "programs" and "preparation" are as much a part of sports these days as training. You can't succeed unless you have them all lined up, whether it is riding, running, tennis, football (both kinds), baseball, basketball, whatever, you can bet everyone is "doing what they need to do" in order to be competetive and bring home that paycheck.
So I mostly watch Curling, the last honest sport.;)
To say that one Nationality or Race is able to succeed at a fantastic rate in a drug filled sports world without drugs simply because they are "gifted genetically" is to swallow the same cool-aid that the Armstrong crowd has swallowed.
don't forget bowling. a twelve pack isn't performance enhancing, it just makes you think you're better.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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MarkvW said:
In other words, every athlete who has fantastic success in "a drug filled sports world" is a doper! An honest athlete is incapable of a fantastic rate of success!

Can't say I'd go that far.
You might want to read what he wrote instead of trying to clog the toilet

one Nationality or Race is able to succeed at a fantastic rate
 
May 16, 2012
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MarkvW said:
In other words, every athlete who has fantastic success in "a drug filled sports world" is a doper! An honest athlete is incapable of a fantastic rate of success!

Can't say I'd go that far.
That's what I'm saying, but when you ask names...silent as on USSR nuclear submarine trying to sneak in New York harbor:D
 
Jun 29, 2009
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chain chain chain said:
Thanks, did not read book, but as far I know he didn't mention names. Am I right about that?

yes he does give some names. the real name for a few. for most just a code name. but some times (not all the times) there is enough detail regarding teams, competition, results... and with a bit of research or if you know the sport you can find out who it is
 
Jun 29, 2009
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chain chain chain said:
But yes just month before London.

what i meant is that Hajo Seppelt, the journalist who did the programme about systematic doping in kenya, has this pattern of producing a documentary about a third world country before every major event.
and the underlying message of these programmes is "while our athletes get controlled all year 'round, the 3rd world countries dope at will, this is unfair, and this is why we [germany] can't get any medals"
 
MarkvW said:
In other words, every athlete who has fantastic success in "a drug filled sports world" is a doper! An honest athlete is incapable of a fantastic rate of success!

Can't say I'd go that far.
Yes, pretty much. If you can not comprehend the advantage that "proper medical preparation" gives today, then you really can't get involved in the discussion. It is not the same as "popping a couple bennies to stay awake" like you did in "law skool".
 
book

Zam_Olyas said:
I know a guy who says the Chinese don't dope it's just hard work for them. lol.
I think I'm going to go ahead and write a book about doping and explain to everyone just how easy it is, relatively speaking, once you overcome the barrier of obtaining the products or the materials necessary for a program. Then no one can claim ignorance or suggest that x-nation's never-before-so-dominant-athletes got that way w/o going beyond training.
 
It always strikes me that those East Africans are supposed to be natural runners, yet they are surrounded by trainers and soigneurs, usually in their home land, far away from the European press, and European testers. They do a major race, then they fly in shortly before, and beat the über-doped competition which is supposed to be untalented and lazy.

Joe, similarly to your idea, I was thinking of writing a Doping For Dummies. For all the fanboys and naysayers to read, or just those wondering what the skinny is. A nice summary of doping methods, with people who got caught for it, plus methods that can barely be traced, with the people convicted for it anyway. Some nice summaries of Victor Conte's admissions, yours, etc.
How much doping will help performance, how to remain undetected, in which way unions help our athletes, how they hep their unions not to have to do their job by simply not showing up in the homeland, changing facial structures, etc. All in everyday language so there is no intelligence, age or language barrier.
Importantly, I'd work in an ethics theme, to encourage those now packed with the knowledge, to not go out and use it for cheating, but for helping the sport to get clean. If no-one complains of testers failing to show up to a large race, or national favorites to never get off theor Coloradan mountain, the sport will not easily change. Readers can help the world change.
 
I doubt the systematic of a Kenyan doping program as claimed by the journalist. I just don't think its logistically possible for doping to be that widespread with nothing more than a doctor's confession as evidence. Further, Kenyan success all over the world, in different training cultures puts a lot behind the defense of the the "kenyans work harder, most gifted athletes...". You put a Kenyan in the Japanese marathon culture and you get Wanjiru, a Kenyan in the middle distance culture of the US and you get Lagat (in college, before his positive A sample back in Kenya...), or any other Kenyan in the NCAA system.

That being said, its naive to think no one is doping, and that the drastic reduction in times is by nothing more than talent and hard work. I am most skeptical of the oft inconsistency of kenyan runners: Every year, some 18 and 19 year olds go sub 12:55 and 7:30, without sustained growth. On the other hand, the contrast between the image of Kenyan training camps to more familiar patterns of systematic (technical, precise, calculated, whatever) (heres a video of Asbel kiprop doing 60's style football strength circuits with tires (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUMqOEDhLkU&feature=topics) doesn't strike the chord of the sophisticated doping programs found elsewhere.

Unfortunately, we see these training groups and compare them to whats familiar in the US: new star galen rupp has been a developing talent for 10 years (ran 13:37 as a U20, HS and collegiate national titles); access to the nike training facility; a notable coach; high quality training partners. Its easy to see this contrast, and have no choice but to fill in the gaps with widespread doping in Kenya. (not to say nobody's skeptical of American programs: this particular coach has a notorious "win at all costs" approach, very connected among doctors and specialists, access to a whole lot of money and technology, and some strange transfers in and out of his group).

I think the right answer is the simplest. People dope. A portion of the any population is susceptible to wanting an edge, without cultural or regional bias. Add in environment, and you see it emerge in a few ways.

I think I have more to say, but I want to make sure I said what I meant first
 
Jan 14, 2011
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joe_papp said:
I think I'm going to go ahead and write a book about doping and explain to everyone just how easy it is, relatively speaking, once you overcome the barrier of obtaining the products or the materials necessary for a program. Then no one can claim ignorance or suggest that x-nation's never-before-so-dominant-athletes got that way w/o going beyond training.
Please put me down for a copy, or maybe I'll just pirate an e-book version.

But seriously, no amount of "tell all exposes" will make any difference unless people accept that the Doping Genni is out of the bottle and nobody can ever put it back. Doping is here to stay at every level, of every sport, in every country. Finally because so much doping has gone on undetected (seems highly probable) no athlete at any level in any sport in any country can be presumed innocent. Not to say "they all dope", but there is no way to tell is an athlete is squeeky clean, is there? That's the tragedy everyone is a suspect.
 
More Strides than Rides said:
.. I am most skeptical of the oft inconsistency of kenyan runners: Every year, some 18 and 19 year olds go sub 12:55 and 7:30, without sustained growth.
It's amazing how closely that phenomena is associated with doping. Remarkable even.

Just because the other dozen times come from nowhere performances were doping THIS time it will be different. Am I right deniers???
 
rickshaw said:
but there is no way to tell is an athlete is squeeky clean, is there?
Well, yes there is. Every doping method? No.

-Very few forms of doping are immune to testing. Yes, some are not easy but there's practically zero R&D to developing doping markers because there's no economic incentive for doping prevention.
-In the U.S. there are few/no criminal statutes for doping. It's legalized/industrialized to some degree through anti-aging clinics.
-In the UCI's case, they won't even discuss back-testing because they know the tests will have caught up to the samples in a few years.

The IOC and affiliated sports federations want some doping for a spectacular show. They don't want anyone dead, but breaking an Olympic record every four years makes for a great show that earns at least 10's of billions of dollars every four years.

Read these: http://www.podiumcafe.com/tags/tough-on-doping?order=date&scope=affiliation&type=FanPost
 
Mar 4, 2010
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More Strides than Rides said:
I am most skeptical of the oft inconsistency of kenyan runners: Every year, some 18 and 19 year olds go sub 12:55 and 7:30, without sustained growth.
They aren't really 18-19. Coach Renato "Kenyans don't benefit from doping" Canova says you should ignore junior results in Kenya & Ethiopia because no one is really a junior.
 
Cloxxki said:
...
Joe, similarly to your idea, I was thinking of writing a Doping For Dummies...
Check your PM's! :cool:

rickshaw said:
Please put me down for a copy, or maybe I'll just pirate an e-book version.

But seriously, no amount of "tell all exposes" will make any difference unless people accept that the Doping Genni is out of the bottle and nobody can ever put it back...
This is why I won't be publishing an e-book version! lol. Or if I do it will cost 4-5x as much as the print copy and will include anti-piracy code that summons actual ex-Somali pirates to your flat to work you over with old discarded AK-47 bu_t_t_stocks (I had to edit this post since apparently b-u-double-T is censored!) if you even attempt to crack it! :p

You're right though, and so my motivation in writing the book will be similar to one of the motivating factors for my becoming a trafficker: annoyance at the intentional ignorance and systematic denying of the scope/severity of the problem by the media, the authorities, the governing bodies, and even the fans [with the hope, on their part, that the "problem" would go away, or at least not be discovered and discussed at its true level of severity (if that makes sense)].

I don't have any illusions about my own place in "history" or my value to humankind, but at the same time it's undeniable that I've been a catalyst in broadening the scope of the public "debate" re. the seriousness and pervasiveness of doping in both pro and amateur sport.
 
joe_papp said:
Check your PM's! :cool:



This is why I won't be publishing an e-book version! lol. Or if I do it will cost 4-5x as much as the print copy and will include anti-piracy code that summons actual ex-Somali pirates to your flat to work you over with old discarded AK-47 bu_t_t_stocks (I had to edit this post since apparently b-u-double-T is censored!) if you even attempt to crack it! :p

You're right though, and so my motivation in writing the book will be similar to one of the motivating factors for my becoming a trafficker: annoyance at the intentional ignorance and systematic denying of the scope/severity of the problem by the media, the authorities, the governing bodies, and even the fans [with the hope, on their part, that the "problem" would go away, or at least not be discovered and discussed at its true level of severity (if that makes sense)].

I don't have any illusions about my own place in "history" or my value to humankind, but at the same time it's undeniable that I've been a catalyst in broadening the scope of the public "debate" re. the seriousness and pervasiveness of doping in both pro and amateur sport.
"There is a proper dignity and proportion to be observed in the performance of every act of life"

The irony in your comment vs your sig.

Spare us the book and self-promotion, please, all sport needs to move ahead with the hope and constant striving toward developing a cleaner culture....you've already done enough.
 
mewmewmew13 said:
"There is a proper dignity and proportion to be observed in the performance of every act of life"

The irony in your comment vs your sig.

Spare us the book and self-promotion, please, all sport needs to move ahead with the hope and constant striving toward developing a cleaner culture....you've already done enough.
**** off? Does that come through uncensored?
 
Aug 10, 2010
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mewmewmew13 said:
"There is a proper dignity and proportion to be observed in the performance of every act of life"

The irony in your comment vs your sig.

Spare us the book and self-promotion, please, all sport needs to move ahead with the hope and constant striving toward developing a cleaner culture....you've already done enough.
Papp wants to write a book about how doping happens? Who will the audience be for that book? I wonder . . . People who want to learn how to dope, maybe?
 
MarkvW said:
Papp wants to write a book about how doping happens? Who will the audience be for that book? I wonder . . . People who want to learn how to dope, maybe?
I don't know, dude. Potential dopers might want a book written by someone a little more successful. As it is it would be like buying a get rich quick book from a rat faced fry cook who works at McDonald's.
 
Aug 10, 2010
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BroDeal said:
I don't know, dude. Potential dopers might want a book written by someone a little more successful. As it is it would be like buying a get rich quick book from a rat faced fry cook who works at McDonald's.
Valid point. His doping skills were belied by his sludge-filled buttocks and his dealing skills are belied by his felony conviction.
 
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