Tabata Protocol

[BroDeal]

Does it live up to the hype? Or is it snake oil used to convice people that they do not have to spend much time exercising?

 

[Tapeworm]

Does it live up to the hype? Or is it snake oil used to convice people that they do not have to spend much time exercising?

Works well for what it is ie: a lung-busting anaerobic/VO2max workout. And it works these zones very, very well indeed. Not that effective for FTP.

 

[oldborn]

We do not race on that way (despite we need those HIIT results sometimes in race), and we can find similar training methods long time ago.

I think is a big commercial for gym, Baywatch style workout and designed for lasy people.

 

[Tapeworm]

There is nothing "lazy" about the protocol, if done correctly. And it works reasonably well, the studies confirm this.

 

[oldborn]

There is nothing "lazy" about the protocol, if done correctly. And it works reasonably well, the studies confirm this.

No one did not mention results of study.
Tabata used a mechanically cycle ergometer for study wright?
So zillions "lazy" fat people rush to gym jumping on stationed cycle, while gym owners makes huge profit.

Yes it makes some good things, but "genneraly" for people who short in time. or want to cut weight.

If we apply this protocol on any given exercise or enviroment we will shift focus of the session. For example if we choose 20 sec. sprints instead stationary cycle we gonna put a much more stress on organism do not mention about technique.
So "lazy" people rush to gyms and expecting miracles from Tabata.

Ask any sprinter or cyclist did he performed similar exercise before 1996. when Tabata introduce "his" way.

 

[Tapeworm]

I think your logic is flawed. Tabata did use stationary bikes. But then just about every cycling-based study I can think of does.

And that "..."lazy" fat people rush to gym jumping on stationed cycle..." and "...example if we choose 20 sec. sprints instead stationary cycle we gonna put a much more stress on organism do not mention about technique..." I don't really follow what you mean. Watts are watts.

If you hit 600 watts for 20sec in on a gym bike its the same as 600 watts on the road (actually gym bike may be harder due to the increased thermal stress). As for technique, cycling ain't that hard to ride in a straight line.

Tabata didn't invent a technique he merely formalised it and explained why it works the way it does. Fartlek training in running has been around for a long time. The protocol can and has been applied to cycling, running, rowing etc etc. Similar to the 2 x 20mins. Its not a "new" way of training, but it is effective for the time poor but standardising it.

I don't understand what your problem is with it. Just trolling?

 

[runninboy]

No one did not mention results of study.
Tabata used a mechanically cycle ergometer for study wright?
So zillions "lazy" fat people rush to gym jumping on stationed cycle, while gym owners makes huge profit.

Yes it makes some good things, but "genneraly" for people who short in time. or want to cut weight.

If we apply this protocol on any given exercise or enviroment we will shift focus of the session. For example if we choose 20 sec. sprints instead stationary cycle we gonna put a much more stress on organism do not mention about technique.
So "lazy" people rush to gyms and expecting miracles from Tabata.

Ask any sprinter or cyclist did he performed similar exercise before 1996. when Tabata introduce "his" way.

back in the 70's there was a workout similiar to Tabata intervals. Close to max effort short rest. Funny thing it was an old fashioned principle. Coaches used to use it to jump start training. It served the purpose of a great equalizer, no one could finish it without hurting. Usually no one was left standing.
The version of the workout used in track & field was called Irish relays or parlauf relay. 5 man teams anchor hands off to first man and the relay repeats. This relay was actually used in competition and my college team held the national record. You run a 23 second 200 meters and you get about a minute 20 rest and repeat until the team has covered 5 miles. The first 2 or 3 are not too hard, the last 4 intervals are excruciating. I was the only man on our team who didnt throw up, but i could barely walk. All the team had to literally crawl to get up on the top step of the podium.
Same principle as Tabata , my coach was in the 48 olympic final and he used the workout in college. Also the military used similar workouts...

 

[BroDeal]

I don't understand what your problem is with it. Just trolling?

I think what he is alluding to is hype like articles with titles like "Get in Shape in Four Minutes a Day."

I have my doubts about the validity of Tabata's study.

 

[oldborn]

I think your logic is flawed. Tabata did use stationary bikes. But then just about every cycling-based study I can think of does.

And that "..."lazy" fat people rush to gym jumping on stationed cycle..." and "...example if we choose 20 sec. sprints instead stationary cycle we gonna put a much more stress on organism do not mention about technique..." I don't really follow what you mean. Watts are watts.

If you hit 600 watts for 20sec in on a gym bike its the same as 600 watts on the road (actually gym bike may be harder due to the increased thermal stress). As for technique, cycling ain't that hard to ride in a straight line.

Tabata didn't invent a technique he merely formalised it and explained why it works the way it does. Fartlek training in running has been around for a long time. The protocol can and has been applied to cycling, running, rowing etc etc. Similar to the 2 x 20mins. Its not a "new" way of training, but it is effective for the time poor but standardising it.

I don't understand what your problem is with it. Just trolling?

I was thinking about sprint running intervals instead cycling in gym, or katllbell or any kind of weight intervals using Tabata, this is a whole new story, isn t is?. I did not thinking about swap stationary cycle with road bike.

 

[oldborn]

Same principle as Tabata , my coach was in the 48 olympic final and he used the workout in college. Also the military used similar workouts...

Well your coach had nothing to do with Tabata, but still he apply same methods, but he did not realize that Tbata gonna make a fortune on "his" way.
I had similar or same workouts when practice running back in 80 s. Everybody does.
As i said nothing new. Those Japanese really now how to sell "wisdom" of training.
So what is so revolutionary about Tabata? Nothing

 

[flyor64]

I don't think it's "snake oil" so to speak. Intervals work. Everyone agrees on that I'd guess. This just "focuses" them I guess?

I've tried them. I have a limited amount of time to train so anything that will get me "better results" within my available training time...I'll use it.

Another I've read, but not tried, the is the Little Method. Again, nothing revolutionary, but a formalized interval with results to back up the claims:

60 seconds of intense exercise (at 95% of VO2max) followed by 75 seconds of rest, repeated for 8-12 cycles

Link: http://jp.physoc.org/content/early/2010/01/20/jphysiol.2009.181743.abstract

 

[Tapeworm]

...As i said nothing new. Those Japanese really now how to sell "wisdom" of training...

Yeah I had to pay a small fortune to be able to use the Tabata protocol in my training....

 

[oldborn]

Yeah I had to pay a small fortune to be able to use the Tabata protocol in my training....

No you should use common sense.

Toyota Tojo protocol (five days a week for six weeks,20 seconds of intense work, followed by 10 seconds of rest or very low intensity exercise ) infact improved (well trained) subject maximum aerobic capacity by 14% wright?

On the other hand second (moderate intensity) controled group (in same study) performed moderate intensity (70% VO2 Max) steady state cardiovascular exercise for one hour on 5 days per week, and they improved VO2Max by 10%.

So i do not seeing much of improvement in VO2Max HIIT group, when we look on huge, huge amount of effort which HIIT group did.

Do you have a will to vomit six weeks and gain 4% more VO2Max than people who did moderate exercise?


And the most interested part of study is that HIIT group on the fifth day actually did 30 minutes of steady state exercise at 70% VO2 Max followed by 4 Tabata style intervals.

Anaerobic capacity for HIIT group increased by 28%, but second (moderate intensity) control group did not even train in such anaerobic way.

So myth are going on, not to mention Toyota have not been shown to be more effective for fat loss than any other type of circuit training.

As every other study Toyota is not flawless, and it can be easily explained. It has some benefits, but most people in gym used Toyota for miracle fat loss, and 10 minutes per day get in shape gym coach programs.

We all use similar exercises in our routine, and i do not call it Toyota, cos it is nothing new and spectacular about it.

Maybe Exclusive interview with Holliwood s Leading Fat Loss expert may clear some things for you about Toyota Tojio protocol for lazy people.

 

[Tapeworm]

I should have known better than to get into a discussion about anything with oldborn.

Sir, your logic chip is fried, find a new one.

 

[oldborn]

I should have known better than to get into a discussion about anything with oldborn.

Sir, your logic chip is fried, find a new one.

Maybe mine English sucks, but yours arguments sucks as well

 

[runninboy]

Well your coach had nothing to do with Tabata, but still he apply same methods, but he did not realize that Tbata gonna make a fortune on "his" way.
I had similar or same workouts when practice running back in 80 s. Everybody does.
As i said nothing new. Those Japanese really now how to sell "wisdom" of training.
So what is so revolutionary about Tabata? Nothing

My point was that Tabata was just piggy backing on running workouts that were developed in the 1930's or before. Nothing new.
Only the marketing of it.
But done properly it is very efficient use of time.
When i was running in the 70's the principle of Long Steady Distance was being used alot. However I found shorter intervals of quality were a much better use for race training. One coach i had in high school told me i had no "base" that i should run a minimum of 6 miles everyday and anything less was just well lets say he made a reference to pleasuring myself.
I went the other way because he was a jerk. My "base" became running a 1.8 miles cross country route near my house almost daily. I would fly with alot of surges, basically getting my heat rate close to max in the first quarter mile and slowing for a short interval before maxing up again.
about 9 minutes worth.
I trained less than 20 miles a week while my competitors were doing 70 to 100 miles a week. Guess who won? Moi

to give you an idea of how well good intervals work. I had been doing alot of speed work and was racing a big meet running the quarter. I got a muddy lane and was pretty hammered from overwork and not only lost i got eliminated in the prelims. My teammates rode me pretty good, so i decided to shut them up. The only race that was left was the 2 mile, so i went down to the infield and checked in. As my team had something like 27 LA City Cross Country titles my teammates planned on giving the sophmore upstart a big whooping.
I just decided to run it like my daily run, I sprinted the straights and jogged the curves. The whole field thought i was disrespecting them, and i guess i was i wanted to show that i could run a workout faster than most could run flat out. I didn't win, I barely broke 10 minutes but that was good enough to whup all but a handful. Nowadays i could place in the City championship with that workout.

So yes while Tabata has just packaged something and marketed it, which ticks me off a little, the bottom line is the system is based on sound principles of proven benefit.

It's like if Andy Hampsten came up with the "Hampsten method" where you alternate sitting & standing climbing. I just keep doing what works and don't care what name someone put on it. I didn't stop spinning just because Johnny G patented the workout name.

 

[runninboy]

I don't think it's "snake oil" so to speak. Intervals work. Everyone agrees on that I'd guess. This just "focuses" them I guess?

I've tried them. I have a limited amount of time to train so anything that will get me "better results" within my available training time...I'll use it.

Another I've read, but not tried, the is the Little Method. Again, nothing revolutionary, but a formalized interval with results to back up the claims:

60 seconds of intense exercise (at 95% of VO2max) followed by 75 seconds of rest, repeated for 8-12 cycles

Link: http://jp.physoc.org/content/early/2010/01/20/jphysiol.2009.181743.abstract

With the internet i am sure they have some stupid formula for different intervals now. We used to use different intervals for different purposes. build endurance, improve form under stress, efficiency, pace, speed, etc etc.
If you were to go to a run website i have seen things mentioned where you calulate the interval, then the rest interval,then the workout length etc etc
for example half race distance, run at race pace,with 1/2 interval elapsed time for rest interval, multiplyed by 8 times race distance.

HR is probably used more nowadays, race pace i think would translate to around 90 95% of max depending on the distance of said race.
a quarter miler would be closer to Max a miler maybe closer to 85 %

 

[oldborn]

Of course runninboy we need (if we are talking about mid.- long, distance races) speed, distance, and tempo that is it.

Yes before 50 years ago sprinters did a maraton distance workouts, and plans was hardly tailored towards ours race distance, it was principle More is better.
But i was reading some really interseting stuff this days about "come back" of those principles.
I was talking how people use Tabata in non proper way, to cut endurance-distance part and trying to cut weight, or just get fit with really hard workouts, in a way "Less is More".

I am also working on mine protocol study and i am wandering about name, maybe "You will not get rip off" or "Workouts for Brokers".

Instead of 20 seconds/10 seconds like Toyota, mine intervals would be 19 seconds/9 seconds, but i am short in subjects so Bro Deal would be ideal

 

[runninboy]

Of course runninboy we need (if we are talking about mid.- long, distance races) speed, distance, and tempo that is it.

Yes before 50 years ago sprinters did a maraton distance workouts, and plans was hardly tailored towards ours race distance, it was principle More is better.
But i was reading some really interseting stuff this days about "come back" of those principles.
I was talking how people use Tabata in non proper way, to cut endurance-distance part and trying to cut weight, or just get fit with really hard workouts, in a way "Less is More".

I am also working on mine protocol study and i am wandering about name, maybe "You will not get rip off" or "Workouts for Brokers".

Instead of 20 seconds/10 seconds like Toyota, mine intervals would be 19 seconds/9 seconds, but i am short in subjects so Bro Deal would be ideal

You kind of missed what i was saying. I used very short workouts with alot of intensity to replace endurance work. When i was in college my coach never allowed me to run as far as the race distance. I built all my strength & endurance from intervals. I would train for a 20 minute race in short 60 second segments. The only time i ran as far as i raced was on race day.
Totally counter to the overdistance training used by most in that period.
So Tabata can be used as a time saver if u know what u r doing, although i hesitate to call it Tabata it is just high intensity short rest intervals.
period.

 

[BroDeal]

No you should use common sense.

Toyota Tojo protocol (five days a week for six weeks,20 seconds of intense work, followed by 10 seconds of rest or very low intensity exercise ) infact improved (well trained) subject maximum aerobic capacity by 14% wright?

On the other hand second (moderate intensity) controled group (in same study) performed moderate intensity (70% VO2 Max) steady state cardiovascular exercise for one hour on 5 days per week, and they improved VO2Max by 10%.

I wonder how "well trained" you can be and still raise your VO2Max by 14%. That is a huge increase well trained people and a pretty good increase for untrained people..

Again, a 10% increase in six weeks for "well trained" subjects doing five hours of moderate exercise a week sounds very large for supposedly well trained subjects.

 

[oldborn]

You kind of missed what i was saying. I used very short workouts with alot of intensity to replace endurance work. When i was in college my coach never allowed me to run as far as the race distance. I built all my strength & endurance from intervals. I would train for a 20 minute race in short 60 second segments. The only time i ran as far as i raced was on race day.
Totally counter to the overdistance training used by most in that period.
So Tabata can be used as a time saver if u know what u r doing, although i hesitate to call it Tabata it is just high intensity short rest intervals.
period.

Yes totally counter to the overdstance training used by most in that period. But most coaches at that time did not tailored distance workout per race demands, like today. So for a 5km cross they simply give us 15-20 km per day, which is non sence.
As far i understand (you are hard to read) you did not perform very well?

I am also sure that today we do not train on that way, we need distance-aerobic part as much as speed-anaerobic part for 5km race, cos it is simple endurance event, and not a sprint distance

I never meet a 1500m or 5 km runner who s entirely workout consists of HIIT or Toyota.

There is some team TBB coaches who s training for special events consists of 100x100m HIIT running.

 

[oldborn]

I wonder how "well trained" you can be and still raise your VO2Max by 14%. That is a huge increase well trained people and a pretty good increase for untrained people..

Again, a 10% increase in six weeks for "well trained" subjects doing five hours of moderate exercise a week sounds very large for supposedly well trained subjects.

Very simple the beauty is in how we presents results and start shape of subjects: The steady state group had a higher VO2max at the end (from 52 to 57 ml/kg/min), but the Tabata group had started lower and gained more overall (from 48 to 55 ml/kg/min), what a miracle.
Also, only the Tabata group had gained anaerobic capacity benefits cos they trained in such a regime.

 

[Boeing]

I should have known better than to get into a discussion about anything with oldborn.

Sir, your logic chip is fried, find a new one.

oldborn = coachfergie

 

[runninboy]

Yes totally counter to the overdstance training used by most in that period. But most coaches at that time did not tailored distance workout per race demands, like today. So for a 5km cross they simply give us 15-20 km per day, which is non sence.
As far i understand (you are hard to read) you did not perform very well?

I am also sure that today we do not train on that way, we need distance-aerobic part as much as speed-anaerobic part for 5km race, cos it is simple endurance event, and not a sprint distance

I never meet a 1500m or 5 km runner who s entirely workout consists of HIIT or Toyota.

There is some team TBB coaches who s training for special events consists of 100x100m HIIT running.

Hard to read? sorry, Well my job forced me to cut off my college running before the outdoor track season. I had set one national record in the relay by then.
my personal best performance i feel was a 1:51 800 and 4:12 mile
at 17 years old. Not my best marks but considering i beat all the collegiate and open runners that day in both races and that they were only a half hour apart i feel i did well.
So while u have never met me HIIT can replace distance work.
10X400 in 60 was pretty good with the rest interval a jog across the infield to the other side of the track.
I ran sub 20 minutes for 4 miles cross country based on that.
SImply put you can gain endurance by doing hi intensity intevals over and over and over and over (see how that works?) the key is the rest interval. as long as you dont go too intense

 

[oldborn]

Hard to read? sorry, Well my job forced me to cut off my college running before the outdoor track season. I had set one national record in the relay by then.
my personal best performance i feel was a 1:51 800 and 4:12 mile
at 17 years old. Not my best marks but considering i beat all the collegiate and open runners that day in both races and that they were only a half hour apart i feel i did well.
So while u have never met me HIIT can replace distance work.
10X400 in 60 was pretty good with the rest interval a jog across the infield to the other side of the track.
I ran sub 20 minutes for 4 miles cross country based on that.
SImply put you can gain endurance by doing hi intensity intevals over and over and over and over (see how that works?) the key is the rest interval. as long as you dont go too intense

Prety good results, but anyway those 10x400m are not same as Mr. Tabata sugest 20sec, wright?

You did 4km anyway with those HIIT and plus rest interval i figure that you run over 6 km total, wright?

Of course that can help, but i doubt that super short intervals like Tabata alone without longer distance can help us to be faster on mid distance.

Someone said that body remember training time and not distance, which i discover on my first marathon as a lie.

Anyway I agree that Tabata is nothing specatular and it is big marketing, when we look at results and how he interprete it, it is impossible to gain 14% more VO2Max for just 6 weeks.