Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Cycling111]

When Ayuso has complained about the team, I've always thought about how he would have looked like Pogacar in the Vuelta 2019 or the Tour 2020. They complain for no reason; they've had all the facilities that Pogacar didn't have in his early days.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Think that is to underestimate Pogacar. It's the same as when in Remco´s thread suggests he can beat him in a Tour with what he's shown in GT. Remco first has to be able to be second best in the Tour, and then think about being first.

In Monuments, Del Toro first has to be close to Remco and then dream of getting close to Pogacar.


You're absolutely right. When I read Mexicans on social media comparing Del Toro to the achievements of his second season (the TDF alone is worth the entire Del Toro season) without putting it into context...

Del Toro this yerar has had the best team in the Giro and the best team in every race he's competed in. Pogacar spent his first years as a professional racing completely alone, racing a Tour de France alone. Even so, in his first GT, he won three mountain stages alone. It's incomparable to Del Toro's situation, and yet he hasn't won anything close to a TDF.

By the way, they're actually comparing Del Toro's season with Pogacar's first, and they're making a mistake because they consider this year his neopro year, while Del Toro's neopro year was last year. Pogacar's was also far superior, with two one-week races, three stages in a GT, and a podium.

I said a big If... This means he is nowhere close to Pogacar's level right now.

 

[Cycling111]

I said a big If... This means he is nowhere close to Pogacar's level right now.

If you think he can be, you're also underestimating him. So you shouldn't think he's a GOAT if you think there's a chance someone else could reach his level soon.

What's the difference between this "big if" and the "if" in Remco´s thread you disagree with? It's the same thing to me.

By the way, I agree that Remco's Tour de France aspirations against Pogacar don't hold up with anything we've seen so far. And at the same time, I consider Remco's level to be far superior to Del Toro's. Remco would have left Carapaz and Yates in the dust with 2024 Tour de France level. And in the classics that Del Toro has won, he's also far superior to Del Toro. We saw it in Lombardy and the World Championships.
Del Toro first has to be close to Remco.

 

[Peyroteo94]

If you think he can be, you're also underestimating him. So you shouldn't think he's a GOAT if you think there's a chance someone else could reach his level soon.

What's the difference between this "big if" and the "if" in Remco´s thread you disagree with? It's the same thing to me.

By the way, I agree that Remco's Tour de France aspirations against Pogacar don't hold up with anything we've seen so far. And at the same time, I consider Remco's level to be far superior to Del Toro's. Remco would have left Carapaz and Yates in the dust with 2024 Tour de France level. And in the classics that Del Toro has won, he's also far superior to Del Toro. We saw it in Lombardy and the World Championships.
Del Toro first has to be close to Remco.

Del Toro is not close to his ceilling, Remco is.
I don't expect him to reach Pogacar's level (only when he starts to regress).
I'm 100% sure Del Toro will be a better climber than Remco so he will probably be a better GT rider. In classics, no. Remco is really on another level and I expect him to be better next year (closer to Pogacar). I still think he is not built to climb, at least compared to his ability to do TTs.

 

[Unchained]

The move had a podcast talking about Del Toro and Pogacar and how can they coexist in the same team. For me it's clear they can't when Del Toro reaches Pogacar's level (a big if).
Del Toro looks to be a future contender in hilly monuments and he will never fight for them in the same of Pogacar. GTs is another story.

If you listened or watched The Move, probably the main point was Tadej Pogacar not Del Toro.. I think Johan said it fairly straight, if Del Toro were to switch teams, Pogacar still exists. Johan also discussed some of the benefits and opportunities that will likely come Del Toro's way by teaming up with Pogacar instead of racing against him. Del Toro is simply untested. Especially his only leadership role was accidental and had he started the Giro as the leader, Juan Ayuso and others dedicated to him, ala Pogacar in every race things might have looked different.
In a few years Del Toro will be a real force, Johan sort of waffling when asked if Del Toro could go blow for blow with Vingegaard in high mountains

 

[Unchained]

Del Toro is not close to his ceilling, Remco is.
I don't expect him to reach Pogacar's level (only when he starts to regress).
I'm 100% sure Del Toro will be a better climber than Remco so he will probably be a better GT rider. In classics, no. Remco is really on another level and I expect him to be better next year (closer to Pogacar). I still think he is not built to climb, at least compared to his ability to do TTs.

Not really possible to predict, can't really say it's anything intentional, nothing that's anyone fault but Del Toro, Remco, Ayuso, Lipowitz, Roglic, Pogacar, Vingegaard have had almost no head to head races to compare them against each other, it's going to come but it hasn't yet. How good or bad Remco and Del Toro look against each other hasn't happened in biggest races.

 

[Peyroteo94]

If you listened or watched The Move, probably the main point was Tadej Pogacar not Del Toro.. I think Johan said it fairly straight, if Del Toro were to switch teams, Pogacar still exists. Johan also discussed some of the benefits and opportunities that will likely come Del Toro's way by teaming up with Pogacar instead of racing against him. Del Toro is simply untested. Especially his only leadership role was accidental and had he started the Giro as the leader, Juan Ayuso and others dedicated to him, ala Pogacar in every race things might have looked different.
In a few years Del Toro will be a real force, Johan sort of waffling when asked if Del Toro could go blow for blow with Vingegaard in high mountains

For 2026, it's impossible for Del Toro to beat Vingegaard in the mountains. Vingegaard is like Remco in hilly classics, the second best GT rider by a huge margin.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Not really possible to predict, can't really say it's anything intentional, nothing that's anyone fault but Del Toro, Remco, Ayuso, Lipowitz, Roglic, Pogacar, Vingegaard have had almost no head to head races to compare them against each other, it's going to come but it hasn't yet. How good or bad Remco and Del Toro look against each other hasn't happened in biggest races.

Del Toro is clearly improving significantly year after year. This year was a surprising year, full of doubts, for 2026 Del Toro knows he can do it, he can win a GT. He can be closer in long classics. One year ago, he won 3 races. He was 11 months without winning. This year he won 16 races!

 

[Unchained]

For 2026, it's impossible for Del Toro to beat Vingegaard in the mountains. Vingegaard is like Remco in hilly classics, the second best GT rider by a huge margin.

For sure, anyone can beat anyone, Del Toro had a good run for certain. He will likely be on a fast track to be a leader, which up to now he has not been, instead going to races were Ayuso, Almeida, Pogacar were all designated in leadership spot. Del Toro sure looks up to the task. The real challenge is from UAE management, not the racers, they are all racing great. Even when they are not trying you get gravel outcome.. Winning with Florian, Wellens and Politt putting in great rides. UAE with all kinds of sleeping monsters like Morgado, Christen, Narvaez..all guys with huge upside. I look at Bora and think they have good toolbox.
And Visma could have been 1000-10000% better if they changed management. Dumb and Dumber remake.

 

[Peyroteo94]

For sure, anyone can beat anyone, Del Toro had a good run for certain. He will likely be on a fast track to be a leader, which up to now he has not been, instead going to races were Ayuso, Almeida, Pogacar were all designated in leadership spot. Del Toro sure looks up to the task. The real challenge is from UAE management, not the racers, they are all racing great. Even when they are not trying you get gravel outcome.. Winning with Florian, Wellens and Politt putting in great rides. UAE with all kinds of sleeping monsters like Morgado, Christen, Narvaez..all guys with huge upside. I look at Bora and think they have good toolbox.
And Visma could have been 1000-10000% better if they changed management. Dumb and Dumber remake.

I'm talking about power. Vingegaard is a different beast right now and I don't expect next year to change anything.

 

[Cookster15]

Del Toro is not close to his ceilling, Remco is.
I don't expect him to reach Pogacar's level (only when he starts to regress).
I'm 100% sure Del Toro will be a better climber than Remco so he will probably be a better GT rider. In classics, no. Remco is really on another level and I expect him to be better next year (closer to Pogacar). I still think he is not built to climb, at least compared to his ability to do TTs.

Are we saying the bold is due to Del Toro’s age, or just how we think climbers should look? I am a numbers man. Physics and simple math say watts per kilo count for climbing potential - not appearances. Numbers tell me a rider who can generate Remco’s sustained watts in TT and yet only weighs 61Kg will climb very well. Remco has already won a grand tour and is rumoured to have a relative* VO2 max over 90. (*relative to body weight).

After this year’s Giro there is no doubt Del Toro is a great climber. But I think you are underestimating Remco here. Remember Remco was stronger than Vingegaard on at least two 3rd week MTFs in last year’s TdF.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Are we saying the bold is due to Del Toro’s age, or just how we think climbers should look? I am a numbers man. Physics and simple math say watts per kilo count for climbing potential - not appearances. Numbers tell me a rider who can generate Remco’s sustained watts in TT and yet only weighs 61Kg will climb very well. Remco has already won a grand tour and is rumoured to have a relative* VO2 max over 90. (*relative to body weight).

After this year’s Giro there is no doubt Del Toro is a great climber. But I think you are underestimating Remco here. Remember Remco was stronger than Vingegaard on at least two 3rd week MTFs in last year’s TdF.

Since we you are talking about 2024 and 2025, just compare Del Toro's improvement with Remco's improvement.
Even in the Giro, Del Toro showed a huge improvement on Finestre compared to his bonk on San Valentino.
If he is better than Remco, right now? No. But this can change already next year IMO. Del Toro has the perfect body to climb, Remco doesn't. In fact he struggles a lot to be reliabld in the high mountains.
I think you should be careful when you say Remco is a beast in w/kg. In TTs, he is the best because his CDA is so low, he isn't pushing more watts than Pogacar for example (we see that in road races) and there is a reason why he isn't that good in long efforts above 7%. I think Del Toro is not close to his ceilling, his performances this year say this. Meanwhile Remco is definitely close to his ceilling, he will ride his 8th season next year.

 

[snipeheem]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1979824720968306933

View: https://x.com/laflammerouge16/status/1979824720968306933
RIP Cycling

 

[BubbaChuck]

he could have highest recorded vo2 max and still be poor if his vo2max recovery is avarage.or any other factor.body type matters,cause in the end of the day its biomechanical fuction we are talking about.for example you could have best cardiovascular system,still wontt do anything,if you muscle system isnot on par.remember ayuso,pog legs never hurt,thats areal thing.pogacar is beast on all fronts,execpt areo.but that is agood thing,cause it means his power is immense.

 

[Peyroteo94]

he could have highest recorded vo2 max and still be poor if his vo2max recovery is avarage.or any other factor.body type matters,cause in the end of the day its biomechanical fuction we are talking about.for example you could have best cardiovascular system,still wontt do anything,if you muscle system isnot on par.remember ayuso,pog legs never hurt,thats areal thing.pogacar is beast on all fronts,execpt areo.but that is agood thing,cause it means his power is immense.

His main weapon is how he can recycle lactate better than everyone else. This is why he can go deep over and over again when his opponents just get more and more fatigued. RVV is a prime example of that.

 

[Peyroteo94]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1979824720968306933

View: https://x.com/laflammerouge16/status/1979824720968306933
RIP Cycling

This is normal. Every rider is improving year after year, Pogacar included. The question is how much more can others improve to the point they can really fight against Pogacar.
I remember his training numbers last year before Canada and he showed a 6h20 training session with 277 average power (326 NP). This year he showed a 4h24 training session with 295 average power. Despite being almost 2 hours shorter, this is probably his zone 2 and he could maintain it for 2 more hours "without problems".
295 W of average power is around 347 W of NP.
Pogacar is improving and will continue to improve. Can others close the gap? We will see.

 

[rafa92]

This is normal. Every rider is improving year after year, Pogacar included. The question is how much more can others improve to the point they can really fight against Pogacar.
I remember his training numbers last year before Canada and he showed a 6h20 training session with 277 average power (326 NP). This year he showed a 4h24 training session with 295 average power. Despite being almost 2 hours shorter, this is probably his zone 2 and he could maintain it for 2 more hours "without problems".
295 W of average power is around 347 W of NP.
Pogacar is improving and will continue to improve. Can others close the gap? We will see.

his main rivals today (vingegaard and VDP) are older than him so they won't close the gap. Evenepoel will probably reduce the gap in one day races but not in GTs. Del toro and seixas can improve a lot but I don't see them reaching pogacar's level in big races (monuments, WCs and GTs) in the next 2/3 years

 

[Rou]

"There's still a lot of time left" - Tadej Pogacar does not rule out La Vuelta return in 2026

The road season officially ended for Tadej Pogacar more than a week ago at Il Lombardia. However, the Slovenian has been participating in some final criterium exhibitions. The last of them, the Andorr...

cyclinguptodate.com

 

[Peyroteo94]

"There's still a lot of time left" - Tadej Pogacar does not rule out La Vuelta return in 2026

The road season officially ended for Tadej Pogacar more than a week ago at Il Lombardia. However, the Slovenian has been participating in some final criterium exhibitions. The last of them, the Andorr...

cyclinguptodate.com

I think he will not race it. He wants to win MSR and PR.

 

[HashRouge]

I think he will not race it. He wants to win MSR and PR.

They aren't the issue, surely? It's the WC that will get in the way of the Vuelta.

 

[Salvarani]

They aren't the issue, surely? It's the WC that will get in the way of the Vuelta.

What you have done in the first half of the season, matters for the second.

He likely needs a break after Tour... after having raced the classics in the spring as well.

The Vuelta just doesnt fit in if he makes MSR, PR and Tour his top targets. Worlds or no Worlds.

 

[Peyroteo94]

They aren't the issue, surely? It's the WC that will get in the way of the Vuelta.

It's very easy to race the Vuelta and the WC. The problem is his spring schedule.

 

[Cookster15]

Del Toro has the perfect body to climb, Remco doesn't

Tall and skinny is the perfect body to climb? Actually I think its about weight and power? What makes a good climber is sustained watts per kilo. Remco has that. I am not sure simple physics cares about body shape? Remco is 2kg lighter than Del Toro but has higher watts (as far as we know).

His main weapon is how he can recycle lactate better than everyone else. This is why he can go deep over and over again when his opponents just get more and more fatigued

I recall everyone saying similar about Jonas before 2024. Amazing how views about Pogačar's recovery changed in the last two years.

Every rider is improving year after year, Pogacar included. The question is how much more can others improve to the point they can really fight against Pogacar.

So every rider keeps improving until they retire? They improve while at optimal age. Inevitably age catches up with everyone. Age will catch up with Pogi too - we just don't know when that will be. Nobody managing Pogi knows either. He is now 27. Paul Seixas might be one to watch as a possible rival in the years to come?

 

[Peyroteo94]

Tall and skinny is the perfect body to climb? Actually I think its about weight and power? What makes a good climber is sustained watts per kilo. Remco has that. I am not sure simple physics cares about body shape? Remco is 2kg lighter than Del Toro but has higher watts (as far as we know).


I recall everyone saying similar about Jonas before 2024. Amazing how views about Pogačar's recovery changed in the last two years.



So every rider keeps improving until they retire? They improve while at optimal age. Inevitably age catches up with everyone. Age will catch up with Pogi too - we just don't know when that will be. Nobody managing Pogi knows either. He is now 27. Paul Seixas might be one to watch as a possible rival in the years to come?

I don't want to fill this thread talking about Remco. But to finish my point:

1 - Del Toro is 1.80, 3 cm taller than Pogacar. So I wouldn't call him tall (Froome, Basso were dominant climbers in their prime and they are tall). I believe Del Toro looks more like a climber and he is more natural in the mountains than Remco. It's early to tell right now, but next year we will have an answer for sure.

2 - Are we forgetting 2025 when looking to Remco's climbing ability? I know he is better than what he showed but he didn't show a single (good) performance in the mountains. Where were those watts? I saw him doing very good performances in TTs for example. This just shows his performances are more about low CDA, than raw power.
How do you explain his performance in the Dauphiné? Completely smoked the field in the TT and 2 days later, he is losing 2 minutes to Pogacar in 7 km?

3 - Roglic is improving and he is past his prime. 2024 Vuelta is a good example of that. Of course there is a time they don't really improve but most of the time riders are improving year after year. In fact you understood my point but, for some reason, you decided to find a way to disagree.

 

[Cookster15]

I don't want to fill this thread talking about Remco. But to finish my point:

1 - Del Toro is 1.80, 3 cm taller than Pogacar. So I wouldn't call him tall (Froome, Basso were dominant climbers in their prime and they are tall). I believe Del Toro looks more like a climber and he is more natural in the mountains than Remco. It's early to tell right now, but next year we will have an answer for sure.

2 - Are we forgetting 2025 when looking to Remco's climbing ability? I know he is better than what he showed but he didn't show a single (good) performance in the mountains. Where were those watts? I saw him doing very good performances in TTs for example. This just shows his performances are more about low CDA, than raw power.
How do you explain his performance in the Dauphiné? Completely smoked the field in the TT and 2 days later, he is losing 2 minutes to Pogacar in 7 km?

I sent you a reply on these points in the Remco thread.