Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Panda Claws]

Any chances of him winning RVV (Ronde van Vlaanderen) in the way Gilbert did?

 

[Elos Anjos]

Spartacus is not particularly brilliant. Even disappointing....but he has some insights on Tadej Pogacar babyface revolution.

Fabian Cancellara's Classics column - Wout van Aert sits Mathieu van der Poel down to turn weakness into strength

Our expert analyst dissects E3 Saxo Classic, poring over the sprint finish and asking: what kind of rider is Tadej Pogacar?

www.cyclingnews.com

I have never seen a Grand Tour rider attacking like this at the Classics. Would we see Jonas Vingegaard doing what Tadej did today? No chance. The last rider to win Harelbeke and the Tour de France was Geraint Thomas but he had to make choices and specialise in a certain area.

Tadej's style is just non-typical for a Grand Tour rider – this way of moving around, of powering over the cobbles, of forcing so hard on the climbs. He is a natural. To me, he looks more like a one-day Classics rider than a Grand Tour rider at the moment.

So the question is... is Tadej going full gas to all these races because in summer he sees he has trouble with the heat and the long mountains compared to his competition, which is Jonas Vingegaard. Does he just love doing these races? Does he see it as just another chance to win races?

I raced to win bike races and this is the same as what he does. I have a lot of respect for that.

Whatever kind of rider he is, he is good for the sport.

 

[Netserk]

Any chances of him winning RVV (Ronde van Vlaanderen) in the way Gilbert did?

No. Sagan and Van Avermaet didn't move before Taaienberg iirc, as QS had numerous cards behind. If Pogi goes super early, the strongest teams will commit to pull him back.

 

[fmk_RoI]

I wasnt saying what you seem to have interpreted all on your own.

Clearly I am not on my own in not realising that, for you, the word trying actually means not its dictionary definition (make an effort) but something entirely else, which was not clear from the rest of what you wrote, where you basically pissed all over MvdP and WvA for daring to take the race to quite an exciting finish on the line. Welcome to Wonderland, I guess.

 

[Aimar16]

So the question is... is Tadej going full gas to all these races because in summer he sees he has trouble with the heat and the long mountains compared to his competition, which is Jonas Vingegaard. Does he just love doing these races? Does he see it as just another chance to win races?

That's a dumb question. He went full gas in the spring classics last year as well and no one thought then that the Danish guy would cause him big problems in GT races.

 

[fmk_RoI]

I'm curious about the economic history of the sport. Do you know how much budgets changed back then?

Not sure what/if figures are available but the general principle is well understood: new sponsors with deeper pockets arrived in the sport (the people behind Moser's Hour record, Tapie etc); Guimard and Hinault broke the power of the criterium agents and riders started to get paid proper and not have to rely on crits/Winter Sixes; the points system focused efforts; as a result of these changes teams became more and more professional (we're still seeing just where that can go).

Whereas before sprinters like Van Looy and Maertens and Kelly could imagine winning Grand Tours and GT riders could win the big Classics teams stopped gambling like that and specialists took over. Without going too far into forbidden territories EPO was in part a product of those changes and itself changed the sport, favouring GT riders more than it did one-day specialists (in-race recovery, not just recovery from training).

None of this is meant to take away from the current generation of talented riders but the wider context matters when people say 'we haven't seen the likes of this since Merckx'. First, we have, and second what happened in the nineties and noughties has an explanation.

 

[jmdirt]

He needs a team. Both WVA and MVDP had very strong domestiques deep into the race forcing Pogacar to do far more chasing.

UAE need to try and get Wellens/Trentin in a break 120km out in the Ronde.

He had two really strong guys to follow...

 

[Elos Anjos]

Not sure what/if figures are available but the general principle is well understood: new sponsors with deeper pockets arrived in the sport (the people behind Moser's Hour record, Tapie etc); Guimard and Hinault broke the power of the criterium agents and riders started to get paid proper and not have to rely on crits/Winter Sixes; the points system focused efforts; as a result of these changes teams became more and more professional (we're still seeing just where that can go).

Whereas before sprinters like Van Looy and Maertens and Kelly could imagine winning Grand Tours and GT riders could win the big Classics teams stopped gambling like that and specialists took over. Without going too far into forbidden territories EPO was in part a product of those changes and itself changed the sport, favouring GT riders more than it did one-day specialists (in-race recovery, not just recovery from training).

None of this is meant to take away from the current generation of talented riders but the wider context matters when people say 'we haven't seen the likes of this since Merckx'. First, we have, and second what happened in the nineties and noughties has an explanation.

Great post. Much obliged.

If your argument goes that big money furthers specialization, then I would add that to my point that just makes Pogacar's versatility even more remarkable. Comparing him to Merckx is justified not on the grounds that others have not more recently done it - GT + Classics + Monuments + One week races - but that he himself casts doubts in how anyone can today be more of an heir to Merckx.

 

[fmk_RoI]

If your argument goes that big money furthers specialization, then I would add that to my point that just makes Pogacar's versatility even more remarkable.

I specifically did not say that when I noted that currently we have turned the specialisation clock back. Initially cycling's Big Bang of Finance encouraged a period of specialisation and currently we seem to be stepping out of that period, for reasons as yet to be properly explored.

Comparing him to Merckx is justified not on the grounds that others have not more recently done it - GT + Classics + Monuments + One week races - but that he himself casts doubts in how anyone can today be more of an heir to Merckx.

One more time: others have done it since Merckx. The comparison isn't just a lazy cliché, it's ignorant of the facts.

 

[Salvarani]

Clearly I am not on my own in not realising that, for you, the word trying actually means not its dictionary definition (make an effort) but something entirely else, which was not clear from the rest of what you wrote, where you basically pissed all over MvdP and WvA for daring to take the race to quite an exciting finish on the line. Welcome to Wonderland, I guess.

It is not what I did at all. Stay mad for absolutely no reason.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Stay mad for absolutely no reason.

I ain't mad. Bemused, yes.

 

[Salvarani]

I ain't mad. Bemused, yes.

Sure

 

[Elos Anjos]

One more time: others have done it since Merckx. The comparison isn't just a lazy cliché, it's ignorant of the facts.

I know that others did it after Merckx. It's tacit in what I said.
It's just that Pogacar casts doubts on the very concept of what being an heir to Merckx means. Valverde, Nibali, WVA, RE, Roglic: no one has so much GT success and classics + monuments affordances. Even if he doesn't win Paris-Roubaix, Milan San Remo, RVV or E3 he is there playing and being a force to reckon with.

 

[fmk_RoI]

I know that others did it after Merckx. It's tacit in what I said.

Holy ***!

 

[Sciatic]

Spartacus is not particularly brilliant. Even disappointing....but he has some insights on Tadej Pogacar babyface revolution.

Fabian Cancellara's Classics column - Wout van Aert sits Mathieu van der Poel down to turn weakness into strength

Our expert analyst dissects E3 Saxo Classic, poring over the sprint finish and asking: what kind of rider is Tadej Pogacar?

www.cyclingnews.com

I have never seen a Grand Tour rider attacking like this at the Classics. Would we see Jonas Vingegaard doing what Tadej did today? No chance. The last rider to win Harelbeke and the Tour de France was Geraint Thomas but he had to make choices and specialise in a certain area.

Tadej's style is just non-typical for a Grand Tour rider – this way of moving around, of powering over the cobbles, of forcing so hard on the climbs. He is a natural. To me, he looks more like a one-day Classics rider than a Grand Tour rider at the moment.

So the question is... is Tadej going full gas to all these races because in summer he sees he has trouble with the heat and the long mountains compared to his competition, which is Jonas Vingegaard. Does he just love doing these races? Does he see it as just another chance to win races?

I raced to win bike races and this is the same as what he does. I have a lot of respect for that.

Whatever kind of rider he is, he is good for the sport.

Great read.

 

[Sciatic]

I know that others did it after Merckx. It's tacit in what I said.
It's just that Pogacar casts doubts on the very concept of what being an heir to Merckx means. Valverde, Nibali, WVA, RE, Roglic: no one has so much GT success and classics + monuments affordances. Even if he doesn't win Paris-Roubaix, Milan San Remo, RVV or E3 he is there playing and being a force to reckon with.

I would say what’s more striking is that no GT rider has been such a powerful force in cobbled classics like Pig is showing since Hinault. Whereas many GT winners have been winners or major players in LBL and Lombardia. Though I think Pog will eventually outclass them there as well.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Likely Pogi just loves this type of races and racing on a personal level. Hence there is a rather big chance he will win them all in the next decade.

 

[Panda Claws]

I would say what’s more striking is that no GT rider has been such a powerful force in cobbled classics like Pig is showing since Hinault. Whereas many GT winners have been winners or major players in LBL and Lombardia. Though I think Pog will eventually outclass them there as well.

Valverde and Nibali could have been pretty good had they tried. Evans as well perhaps.

 

[Sciatic]

Valverde and Nibali could have been pretty good had they tried. Evans as well perhaps.

True, particularly Valverde at Ronde if he wanted. For Nibali, trying to have good form to be among the top riders for the cobbles, hilly classics, and Giro is tough to do, and he didn’t often didn’t show his top form until he was at his season targets. I just checked and even his LBL performances aren’t very remarkable other than once coming 2nd. Lombardia was another story (greatness).

 

[Elos Anjos]

To be able to race at GT level is for many riders a careful step towards form. Think of Froome or Geraint Thomas. Most GT riders prefer one week races as a means to warm up or even thrive (Roglic, Pogacar, Quintana).

It is true that Valverde and Nibali could have tried racing Monuments or Classics more often, but how far would that option endanger their workload towards bigger objectives?

Pogacar builds towards Tour de France while aiming also at winning in these races. That is what's remarkable. They're just not there as a means towards an end, but as ends in themselves.

 

[Poursuivant]

I’ll be very, very surprised if Pogacar can drop either of WVA or MVDP next week.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I’ll be very, very surprised if Pogacar can drop either of WVA or MVDP next week.

He'll drop a hammer on the last Oude Kwaremont - Peterberg combo. Last year it was brutal and MVP was barely hanging on. This year there are two guys so it's even more difficult to do (WVA still not in top form but can reach it by Sunday). I'm not completely ruling out that he succeeds, this is probably the only way to win for him.

 

[Nick2413]

He'll drop a hammer on the last Oude Kwaremont - Peterberg combo. Last year it was brutal and MVP was barely hanging on. This year there are two guys so it's even more difficult to do (WVA still not in top form but can reach it by Sunday). I'm not completely ruling out that he succeeds, this is probably the only way to win for him.

MVP may decide to work with him as he won’t want to deal with Wout at the finish. Trying to imagine a scenario in which someone else attacks earlier on the Kwaremont and Pog follows it up with his own move at the perfect time, might be just enough gas to get separation.

 

[frisenfruitig]

I don't think Pogacar will be able to beat MVDP or WVA at the RVV but I respect the hell out of him for trying. He really is the best, even if a well rested Vingegaard beats him at the TDF in july.

 

[Blanco]

Any chances of him winning RVV (Ronde van Vlaanderen) in the way Gilbert did?

No. He needs Tom Boonen for that