Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[scribers]

I’m bullish on remco getting close to Vingo at some point

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I’m bullish on remco getting close to Vingo at some point

Vingo is super strong. He had very difficult preparations this year and still beat everyone except Pogacar. He clearly was missing his best level during some stages, normally he would've been closer to Pog and further from Remco in the GC. I'm not expecting anyone to threaten Pog & Vingo next year but Remco may get closer than before.

 

[Cookster15]

Vingo is super strong. He had very difficult preparations this year and still beat everyone except Pogacar. He clearly was missing his best level during some stages, normally he would've been closer to Pog and further from Remco in the GC. I'm not expecting anyone to threaten Pog & Vingo next year but Remco may get closer than before.

Words of reason, we will see. I think Vingo did his best watts in the Tour despite his suboptimal prep? And the final TT is always a good guide and he beat Remco.

But also in Pog’s favour was doing the double. Next year that is unlikely. We will see if Vingo’s better prep can overcome a fresher Pogacar. Of course this assumes they both avoid crashes / injury or illness.

Also agree about Remco’s prospects next year.

 

[proffate]

Also, yes Remco is more aero simply because he is shorter, has smaller frontal area. But what do you mean by "skin" ? Pretty clear that UAE did a lot of work on Pogacar's TT bike.

It's a running joke on the LR podcast. Basically Remco tests faster in a short sleeve skinsuit. His arms are more aero than the dimpled/ribbed/whatever skinsuit materials. His stature is an obvious outlier in terms of TT specialists, i.e. look at 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. in the OGTT. So there's something extra magical about Remco, and maybe it's his skin.

20/25 watts is a lot mate.

It is ludicrous to say that we absolutely know that 24yo Remco will never find 20 more watts. Especially because Pog just found (easily) more than 20w over the last year mate.

 

[Peyroteo94]

It's a running joke on the LR podcast. Basically Remco tests faster in a short sleeve skinsuit. His arms are more aero than the dimpled/ribbed/whatever skinsuit materials. His stature is an obvious outlier in terms of TT specialists, i.e. look at 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. in the OGTT. So there's something extra magical about Remco, and maybe it's his skin.


It is ludicrous to say that we absolutely know that 24yo Remco will never find 20 more watts. Especially because Pog just found (easily) more than 20w over the last year mate.

But Pogacar will find another 20 watts like he always does

 

[Ripper]

Words of reason, we will see. I think Vingo did his best watts in the Tour despite his suboptimal prep? And the final TT is always a good guide and he beat Remco.

But also in Pog’s favour was doing the double. Next year that is unlikely. We will see if Vingo’s better prep can overcome a fresher Pogacar. Of course this assumes they both avoid crashes / injury or illness.

Also agree about Remco’s prospects next year.

First, I am not sure not doing the Giro will be fresher. I mean, we think it would because that would be normal, wouldn't it?!

It also is worth wondering - did Vingo do his best numbers? I mean, he was beaten in each instance, so there are tactical reasons behind whether that is honest or not. But we really don't know how these numbers compared to where he thought he would be going.

Regardless, both are ridiculous and I cannot really converse much about them on this thread

 

[proffate]

But Pogacar will find another 20 watts like he always does

can't wait for 60 year old pogacar to cruise along in Z2 at 1000w

 

[scribers]

I found 100 watts at the hardware store

 

[Berniece]

Don't forget that mou said the Giro is ideal training for the TDF for Pog.

Don’t forget that Pogacar himself said that mou is a charlatan.

But do you think he will catch Pogi/Vingegaard or not?

Next year I don’t know, within 4 years, yes. Just don’t know if it’s next year or in 4 years.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Words of reason, we will see. I think Vingo did his best watts in the Tour despite his suboptimal prep? And the final TT is always a good guide and he beat Remco.

But also in Pog’s favour was doing the double. Next year that is unlikely. We will see if Vingo’s better prep can overcome a fresher Pogacar. Of course this assumes they both avoid crashes / injury or illness.

Also agree about Remco’s prospects next year.

Visma and Vingo managed to build a skyscraper in 1.5 months but its foundations weren't strong enough. As a result, Vingo displayed incredible wattage during some mountain stages but wasn't consistent during the whole Tour (really subpar on some occasions), which to me is a sign that training base was not good enough.

As for Pogacar, I actually don't think the Giro had any impact on him: in the 2nd half of the Tour he actually looked stronger than in the first, which is absolutely incredible for a guy doing GT double.

As for Remco, he may progress significantly but the competition is not standing still. For the reasons that can't be discussed here. To me the more important is relative difference: Remco is 9-10 minutes behind Pogacar and the question is: would an in-form Remco have fared worse (relative to Vingegaard) last year or in 2022? Probably not: the best humans were 7-11 minutes behind and I don't think Remco (with GT weight) was below their level.

 

[mariosommelier]

Visma and Vingo managed to build a skyscraper in 1.5 months but its foundations weren't strong enough. As a result, Vingo displayed incredible wattage during some mountain stages but wasn't consistent during the whole Tour (really subpar on some occasions), which to me is a sign that training base was not good enough.

As for Pogacar, I actually don't think the Giro had any impact on him: in the 2nd half of the Tour he actually looked stronger than in the first, which is absolutely incredible for a guy doing GT double.

As for Remco, he may progress significantly but the competition is not standing still. For the reasons that can't be discussed here. To me the more important is relative difference: Remco is 9-10 minutes behind Pogacar and the question is: would an in-form Remco have fared worse (relative to Vingegaard) last year or in 2022? Probably not: the best humans were 7-11 minutes behind and I don't think Remco (with GT weight) was below their level.

It's pretty simple for me: Remco is a great rider, but he doesn't have the high ceiling that Pogacar has in GTs.

 

[Berniece]

It's pretty simple for me: Remco is a great rider, but he doesn't have the high ceiling that Pogacar has in GTs.

This isn’t PCM where you can see the ceiling of a rider.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Visma and Vingo managed to build a skyscraper in 1.5 months but its foundations weren't strong enough. As a result, Vingo displayed incredible wattage during some mountain stages but wasn't consistent during the whole Tour (really subpar on some occasions), which to me is a sign that training base was not good enough.

As for Pogacar, I actually don't think the Giro had any impact on him: in the 2nd half of the Tour he actually looked stronger than in the first, which is absolutely incredible for a guy doing GT double.

As for Remco, he may progress significantly but the competition is not standing still. For the reasons that can't be discussed here. To me the more important is relative difference: Remco is 9-10 minutes behind Pogacar and the question is: would an in-form Remco have fared worse (relative to Vingegaard) last year or in 2022? Probably not: the best humans were 7-11 minutes behind and I don't think Remco (with GT weight) was below their level.

This. Remco is miles behind. He would need to increase his level by a lot and expecting to see Pogacar and Vingegaard not improving their level. Somehow, I have a gut feeling Vingo will race the Giro next year so Pogacar has a great chance of winning the Tour again.

 

[mariosommelier]

This isn’t PCM where you can see the ceiling of a rider.

It's my opinion. You are a Remco homer, so of course everything about Remco would hurt your feelings.

 

[Berniece]

It's my opinion. You are a Remco homer, so of course everything about Remco would hurt your feelings.

Hurt my feelings? Not really, it’s just not based on logic. Just your hunch

 

[mariosommelier]

Hurt my feelings? Not really, it’s just not based on logic. Just your hunch

And when you say he will beat Pogacar in 4 years, it's based on logic.

Okay then.

 

[scribers]

This. Remco is miles behind. He would need to increase his level by a lot and expecting to see Pogacar and Vingegaard not improving their level. Somehow, I have a gut feeling Vingo will race the Giro next year so Pogacar has a great chance of winning the Tour again.

Visma goes all in on the tour with Vingo and a traditional build up with him. They are sandbagging his numbers and know he can ride a better race with proper preparation. I can’t see visma piddling with the giro/Vingo until they know for sure they can’t beat pogi

 

[mariosommelier]

Visma goes all in on the tour with Vingo and a traditional build up with him. They are sandbagging his numbers and know he can ride a better race with proper preparation. I can’t see visma piddling with the giro/Vingo until they know for sure they can’t beat pogi

They will know for sure next year.

 

[Red Rick]

I’m bullish on remco getting close to Vingo at some point

Is this based on dropping minutes in the mountains or on getting beaten in the 2nd ITT?

 

[Peyroteo94]

Is this based on dropping minutes in the mountains or on getting beaten in the 2nd ITT?

This. Where come this nonsense about Remco being able to beat Vingegaard in the future? Vingegaard is a top5 GT rider of modern times (since the 90's). This is the problem with Remco's fanboys, they hype him so much (Merckx's level) and he will never respond to this kind of expectations because they are unrealistic. He is getting this gigantic pressure about winning the Tour but he only can win if Vingegaard and Pogacar have misfortunes. Unless he shows a monster level in the mountains next year, I won't bet a penny on him because Vingegaard and Pogacar are just in a league of their own. Unfortunately for Remco, he born in the same era of Vingegaard and specially Pogacar. I don't have any doubt that Remco 10 years ago would be a Tour winner.

 

[scribers]

Either way is impossible to know. I happen to believe Remco’s ceiling is higher than where he is now

 

[Peyroteo94]

Either way is impossible to know. I happen to believe Remco’s ceiling is higher than where he is now

I think the same but it will be enough to beat Pogiand Vingo? I don't think so.

 

[velaso montador]

I think the same but it will be enough to beat Pogiand Vingo? I don't think so.

What makes you think vingegaard is close to pogacar even after this Tour. Did it look close in the mountains to you at all? You do know VIngegaard have never been better right? and that 3 months is no problem getting into top shape so its basicly just wishful thinking he will improve much next yeah in my opinion and as it is not its Pogacar then everyone else after thats just facts.

 

[tattercycle]

Where come this nonsense about Remco being able to beat Vingegaard in the future?

It comes from Remco doing better numbers on Plateau de Beille than anything Vingegaard did when he was 24yo despite Remco breaking his collarbone this spring and training as a GT-specialist for far shorter.

I'm not confident either way but it's perfectly reasonable to think Remco could improve significantly from 24 to 27 just like Jonas did.

 

[scribers]

What makes you think vingegaard is close to pogacar even after this Tour. Did it look close in the mountains to you at all? You do know VIngegaard have never been better right? and that 3 months is no problem getting into top shape so its basicly just wishful thinking he will improve much next yeah in my opinion and as it is not its Pogacar then everyone else after thats just facts.

The thing is Bernard Hinault had serious doubts Vingo would be competitive, much less pushing his best numbers ever (supposedly). If Hinault doesn't think 3 months is enough, I don't know whose opinion matters.