Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Froome]

It's not about the difference between the good and the not so good. It's about the fact that many years ago many riders didn't approach everything in such a professional way as they do now. It's happened in all sports.

Yeah, the teams are way more professional now, but it's a shame they all looked like amateurs this year against Emirates.

 

[Cookster15]

Back when Pogacar won the 2020 TdF UAE weren't very strong. In fact, that year Jumbo Visma were the dominant team for grand tour racing at least. Pog won that Tour despite his team not because of it.

It is only since last year that UAE truly took a quantum leap to be head and shoulders above everyone. Call it oil money or whatever but it is what it is.

No doubt it was Merckx's battles with Raymond Poulidor that brings up the "racing against farmers" comment. They were still elite athletes and only suffer by comparison to today due to modern sports science progression since the 70s.

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

Ok, but if you have lack of professionalism on one hand and super teams on the other, both limiting the level of competition (though I still don’t agree about the latter) - what would you say was the sweetspot? Historically speaking, what was the most competitive era in cycling?

I would say from the mid 1990 to OP, excluding the TdF. I have a friend who calls the doping of that period 'democratic'.
Anyway i don't know why lack of professionalism (and i also have some grudges about using this word, like not having a power meter is not a lack commitent, it's short coming of pre solid state electronics) would limit the competition. It surely limit the average performance of the peloton, but it's not like some people where insanely more professional than others.

 

[bNator]

I would say from the mid 1990 to OP, excluding the TdF. I have a friend who calls the doping of that period 'democratic'.
Anyway i don't know why lack of professionalism (and i also have some grudges about using this word, like not having a power meter is not a lack commitent, it's short coming of pre solid state electronics) would limit the competition. It surely limit the average performance of the peloton, but it's not like some people where insanely more professional than others.

It’s exactly like that in my opinion. When a sport is transitioning to more professional approach, there is a period where you have guys who have already committed entirely to sport while some of them still keep taking it easy. Take F1 for example. You had a period where some guys took things very seriously and had entire gym programme figured out already (Senna) while others still smoked cigarettes (Rosberg). That kind of environment is without a doubt less competitive than the one where everyone is at the gym 6 hours/day, caring about details like nutrition etc. Entire sport evolves and it’s taking more and more effort to succeed relatively to what it took years ago. It’s not that you can use the latest tools to achieve comparative advantage - you have to use them not to stay behind. Everything needs to fall into place, including having the right team.

I think the sport has never been more competitive than it is now, certainly not in the Merckx era. I would never be as insulting to call those guys farmers, though…

 

[ppanther92]

Yeah, the teams are way more professional now, but it's a shame they all looked like amateurs this year against Emirates.

Over the 5 years Pogacar competed for the TdF GC, Visma was by far the stronger team than UAE on a cumulative basis (in 2023 UAE caught up and they were roughly on par the first time, in 2024 they obviously were the strongest although against a Visma B-team). In fact, Pogacar's first two wins were like racing for Total Energy or Cofidis. He literally had zero support.

2019:
1. Pogacar
40. Polanc
72. De La Cruz

2020:
1. Pogacar
34. Majka
44. Formolo

 

[Peyroteo94]

Good show today. He seems on track to be WC.

 

[Cookster15]

Over the 5 years Pogacar competed for the TdF GC, Visma was by far the stronger team than UAE on a cumulative basis (in 2023 UAE caught up and they were roughly on par the first time, in 2024 they obviously were the strongest although against a Visma B-team). In fact, Pogacar's first two wins were like racing for Total Energy or Cofidis. He literally had zero support.

2019:
1. Pogacar
40. Polanc
72. De La Cruz

2020:
1. Pogacar
34. Majka
44. Formolo

Totally agree. Except I think you got the years mixed up? It was 2020 and 2021.

 

[Berniece]

Good show today. He seems on track to be WC.

I actually didn’t find him that impressive, Sunday will give us a better view on his form though

 

[veganrob]

Pogacar should demand UAE to dump him asap.

Trade him to Movistar.

 

[Jan the Man]

I actually didn’t find him that impressive, Sunday will give us a better view on his form though

I agree that Sunday will be a better measure of form- the climb on the circuit today was relatively short- Sunday should reveal more one way or another

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

It’s exactly like that in my opinion. When a sport is transitioning to more professional approach, there is a period where you have guys who have already committed entirely to sport while some of them still keep taking it easy. Take F1 for example. You had a period where some guys took things very seriously and had entire gym programme figured out already (Senna) while others still smoked cigarettes (Rosberg). That kind of environment is without a doubt less competitive than the one where everyone is at the gym 6 hours/day, caring about details like nutrition etc. Entire sport evolves and it’s taking more and more effort to succeed relatively to what it took years ago. It’s not that you can use the latest tools to achieve comparative advantage - you have to use them not to stay behind. Everything needs to fall into place, including having the right team.

I think the sport has never been more competitive than it is now, certainly not in the Merckx era. I would never be as insulting to call those guys farmers, though…

I don't generally disagree, but when Merckx rolled around many competition were verging on being 60 years old. The were already waves of ''professionalization'' before. If you look at some documentaries you can see that they were paying attention to thing like diet, rest and their bikes. Now, of course, i'm not denying progress, they surely had a more limited knowledge of phisiology than what we have today and more limited resources (i mean they stopped at bar to get water and soda bottles) but in general they were far from amateurs, that was more in the pre WW-I and maybe WW-II era. Cycling was seen as a profession and a good paying one to my knowledge.
And also, some game changing innovations can skew the balance no matter how professional teams are. The italian renaissance in the early '90s, Sky rise in 2012 where all dictated by methodological advancement. Same goes whith formula 1, Colin Chapman introducing ground effect speaks more of his genius than to others lack of professionalism

 

[2WpK]

Good show today. He seems on track to be WC.

Not bad. He seemed pleased. I think he didn't try a long range attack so he could save something for Sunday.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I'm curious to see Hirschi against Pogacar. I think he will be a bigger threat than Remco specially after his fantastic summer shape and he will race at home.

 

[Roku]

I'm curious to see Hirschi against Pogacar. I think he will be a bigger threat than Remco specially after his fantastic summer shape and he will race at home.

Not sure about Hirschi. Except from San Sebastian, he has been a no show in the real big classics and scenarios.

He looks like Pogacar in .1 fields and like Simone Petilli (no offence there) in Monuments and huge scenarios.

Unsure if its something about the distance / endurance (similar to Ulissi, who could not handle more than 200 kms) or more of a mental thing.

 

[ppanther92]

Totally agree. Except I think you got the years mixed up? It was 2020 and 2021.

You are right ofc.

 

[Froome]

You may be back but it’s not the same. It’s clear to anyone that you lost your mojo. Even your avatar wears black now. It’s gotten to the point where I hope Jonas will be able to hold Pog’s wheel at least one last time just to give you a bit of hope…

I'm going to see Quebec race, just to see Mollema beating Pogacar in a sprint. It will make me feel better 😄

 

[scribers]

Let’s look at it this way. What races today would Merckx realistic win in his peak form?

 

[Froome]

Let’s look at it this way. What races today would Merckx realistic win in his peak form?

Everyone he wants. GOAT things.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Not sure about Hirschi. Except from San Sebastian, he has been a no show in the real big classics and scenarios.

He looks like Pogacar in .1 fields and like Simone Petilli (no offence there) in Monuments and huge scenarios.

Unsure if its something about the distance / endurance (similar to Ulissi, who could not handle more than 200 kms) or more of a mental thing.

I think Hirschi can be good in big classics but I have a feeling he doesn't perform well sometimes because he has to support Pogacar.

 

[scribers]

Ironically I could see Merckx winning Paris tours if he focused on it

 

[ppanther92]

I think Hirschi can be good in big classics but I have a feeling he doesn't perform well sometimes because he has to support Pogacar.

Which he is honestly very bad at. Total non-factor in Strade, getting dropped on Mele/Cervo in Milan San Remo while being supposed to be one of the longest lasting domestiques. And I honestly can't remember it was better in other years than this year.

 

[Froome]

Ironically I could see Merckx winning Paris tours if he focused on it

He won Paris Roubaix 3x.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Let’s look at it this way. What races today would Merckx realistic win in his peak form?

That idea only makes sense if you teleport him in this era and give him access to modern training, nutrition and rest.
Vice versa, teleportating Pogacar into Merckx era would only serve a purpose in comparison if he'd have to to this eras training, nutrition, race load etc.
Ofc you can wonder what Merckx from the 70ies would do, but what would we learn from that?
Btw.: is there any knowledge on how many watts he could push? Also with the racing schedule, what kind of peak are we talking about?

 

[Extinction]

Let’s look at it this way. What races today would Merckx realistic win in his peak form?

You must consider the evolution of the sport, not only in terms of science and technology, but talent scouting, globalizzation, etc. The pool in the late 60s/early 70s was pretty much limited to continental riders, with the obvious exceptions. Put Merckx in with today's group and, due to his size and structure, he would probably have a hard time keeping up in the mountains or in the TTs with the likes of those at the top today. He was not the dominat climber in his day, but had exceptional performances. Would the benefits, but also the resultant tougher competition, of that evolution allow him to obtain today a superior level of Pogacar? This is an open question. In essence did Merckx have the same capacity (I intentially avoid the word "talent", because science has taken over) as Pogacar now (and we could throw in the various Vingegaards and Evenepoels)? In short, did Merckx have the same power and endurance, minus the sport's evolution, as the Bigs of today? That is the question.

 

[Peyroteo94]

You must consider the evolution of the sport, not only in terms of science and technology, but talent scouting, globalizzation, etc. The pool in the late 60s/early 70s was pretty much limited to continental riders, with the obvious exceptions. Put Merckx in with today's group and, due to his size and structure, he would probably have a hard time keeping up in the mountains or in the TTs with the likes of those at the top today. He was not the dominat climber in his day, but had exceptional performances. Would the benefits, but also the resultant tougher competition, of that evolution allow him to obtain today a superior level of Pogacar? This is an open question. In essence did Merckx have the same capacity (I intentially avoid the word "talent", because science has taken over) as Pogacar now (and we could throw in the various Vingegaards and Evenepoels)? In short, did Merckx have the same power and endurance, minus the sport's evolution, as the Bigs of today? That is the question.

Merckx would not win half of his wins in this era but I can't know how good he was because he raced 50 years ago. We have an all new sport right now and Merckx was the best of his generation while Pogacar is the best of his generation. I just appreciate what I am witness and this young man is a hell of a rider!