Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Netserk]

One more thing. People keep repeating that Vingegaard will grow his form into the race. Growing your form into a Grand Tour is a myth. It doesn't exist unless you were sick in the first week. A rider appears to become stronger because his competitors are fading more than him.

It absolutely does happen. You don't need to know how the sausage gets made to tell how it tastes. And you can tell that some riders manage to ride faster later in a GT.

Another theory could be that by working together he showed Jonas that he was still strong, otherwise Jonas could have attacked if he just sat on his wheel. And let's be honest Pogačar was done. If Jonas goes there he likely takes some time back. Well more than 1s. Jonas likely knew Pogačar was at his limit as every time he went on the front the pace died down, but on the other hand he could have been thinking that he was saving himself for the sprint. Either way working together was probably the best choice at the time.

Yes, and while he lost the sprint yesterday, he might as well have won it.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

By “Giro Legs”, I mean, he was far superior to the competition but never looked like he was going above 90%. His climbing was effortless and he looked like he still had plenty left in the tank.

Now, he has been feeling the Giro fatigue and can’t sustain the Giro-like efforts stage after stage. He can’t sustain his long distance attacks and hold off Vingo; the Galibier was a furious attack but short and he descended better than Vingo. But Vingo has conserved so much energy by allowing others to reel Pog back in and Pog has been on his own out front.

Without Vingo, Rogla and Remco Pogacar would be absolutely crushing this field while all big mountain stages are still ahead. The level of this GT is the highest in many years but yesterday only Vingo made Pogacar look human (otherwise he would increase his advantage on the penultimate climb). Pogacar still has Giro's w/kg but fatigue is accumulating surely and he can lose some of his form in the second part of the race. The Pyrenees will answer the question if his long climb form is still intact.

 

[Medvind]

Only question is for me how the Giro impact him I dont see Vingegaard beeing able to follow at all if the Giro hasnt kicked I dont know what youve seen this year that made you think that.

Question was always how hard the giro will impact him in the double attempt from now and onwards.

In the quote I was talking about Vinge, not Pog.

Honestly, you don't see Vinge "being able to follow at all if the Giro hasn't kicked"? Seems to me you underestimate Vinge quite a bit. Have Pog really dropped Vinge in any of the last four tours in the 3rd week?

I won't say it can't happen, but I wouldn't bet on it. But sure, as I said in my earler post, Vinge's perperation might not have enough to sustain 3 weeks on a very high level.

 

[kn0s]

I will say something that some of you might find controversial. Most people were expecting Pog to be stronger on the explosive and 10-15 mins climbs. However Jonas historically has been a mutant on these types of efforts. Examples: Arrate, Domancy, Bejes, etc. Pog made a mistake by going all out so early because he was expecting everyone to give up and look at each other on col de Pertus but Vinge did another one of his mutant performances. But a long climb is something different. We saw on Galibier Jonas cracked and the gap started growing unlike Puy Mary where he was closing on Pogacar. Don't be surprised if Pog is stronger than Jonas in the weekend.
One more thing. People keep repeating that Vingegaard will grow his form into the race. Growing your form into a Grand Tour is a myth. It doesn't exist unless you were sick in the first week. A rider appears to become stronger because his competitors are fading more than him.

Jonas has historically done better than pogi on the very hardest/longest climbing stages, don't think this is a matter of opinion.

Using the last few hundred meters of Galibier as a measuring stick is not really useful in my opinion.

I was very surprised by the result yesterday and must admit I can't predict/guess much of this race anymore.

 

[James M]

In the quote I was talking about Vinge, not Pog.

Honestly, you don't see Vinge "being able to follow at all if the Giro hasn't kicked"? Seems to me you underestimate Vinge quite a bit. Have Pog really dropped Vinge in any of the last four tours in the 3rd week?

I won't say it can't happen, but I wouldn't bet on it. But sure, as I said in my earler post, Vinge's perperation might not have enough to sustain 3 weeks on a very high level.

Im not comparing it to a Tour he rode hurt neither should you and the past were quite honestly both Vingegaard and Pogacar are not at that level anymore that doesnt give you much looking in the past.

From this entire year and this tour I dont see any problem with that at all for him no. Even yesterday he rode away with ease and opened the gap big time untill the light went out or he eased up cause he knew like he said he wasnt on his best day or he was empty duo to nutrition like ppl was quoted saying on social media. Idk Nevertheless a impressive ride by Vingegaard.

But he dont need to take alot of time he just need to stay with Vingegaard and outsprint him to gain 10sec on each mountain stage inc bonuses and yes that would be easy in my head for him if not the Giro legs have kicked in. If not and he sole peaked I think he would ride away with ease as noone has the numbers he has. Cant forget how hard the double attempt is should never be underestimated.

 

[Divergence]

Pot just blew himself up. He did not bonk, Giro legs did not catch up. He just thought he could annihilate everybody as he is used to do and when that did not materialize he did not know how to adapt. And I suspect neither he nor his team will do the appropriate analysis and he will continue doing batshit things in the stages to come.

 

[James M]

In the quote I was talking about Vinge, not Pog.

Honestly, you don't see Vinge "being able to follow at all if the Giro hasn't kicked"? Seems to me you underestimate Vinge quite a bit. Have Pog really dropped Vinge in any of the last four tours in the 3rd week?

I won't say it can't happen, but I wouldn't bet on it. But sure, as I said in my earler post, Vinge's perperation might not have enough to sustain 3 weeks on a very high level.

To say it easy I personally would be surprised if you remove the Giro to see him stick to his wheel yes more than 600meter which he hasnt been able to do yet still with the giro in the legs? Yesterday you can say Pogacar blew up if that is a reason of he was empty like ive seen excuses is not really important for me I fear its more down to the Giro which is only natural. But still he rode away with ease and opened a big gap. In fact im yet to see Vingegaard sustain his number at all even here for more than 600meter. Yesterday came more down to pogacar bonked for whatever reason than anything else.

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

Yeah, I don't think he bonked. He was still pulling okayish on the false flat with Vingegaard as neither Remco/Roglic nor G3 was making time up on them.
And Vingegaards sprint actually isn't that bad on an uphill finish, he has won from small groups before, if he had a classic bonk he would've been gapped there not lost by only centimeters.
I think he pulled to hard on the descent after Puy Mary and underestimated the impact of that. And once Vingegaard had gotten the gap down from 35 to under 20s he seemed to mentally very unease at what to do.

Plan from now on for UAE should be pretty straight forward. Don't allow Jumbos in the break, let the break potentially get away and then Sky train to the finishes and then have Pog punch away for a few second gains here and there. There are almost now longer steep stretches this Tour, so draft matters a lot. When Vingegaard attacks on 7/8% he should be able to sit in relatively comfortable, Yates and Almeida are then perfect to slowly crawl back and set a tempo. Remco is happy to TT a long and Roglic never attacks before the flamme rouge anyway so I don't see many problems with that strategy.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I will say something that some of you might find controversial. Most people were expecting Pog to be stronger on the explosive and 10-15 mins climbs. However Jonas historically has been a mutant on these types of efforts. Examples: Arrate, Domancy, Bejes, etc. Pog made a mistake by going all out so early because he was expecting everyone to give up and look at each other on col de Pertus but Vinge did another one of his mutant performances. But a long climb is something different. We saw on Galibier Jonas cracked and the gap started growing unlike Puy Mary where he was closing on Pogacar. Don't be surprised if Pog is stronger than Jonas in the weekend.
One more thing. People keep repeating that Vingegaard will grow his form into the race. Growing your form into a Grand Tour is a myth. It doesn't exist unless you were sick in the first week. A rider appears to become stronger because his competitors are fading more than him.

I have to agree with this. I don't believe Vingegaard is better than Pogacar on super hard mountain stages and Pogacar is better in 10-15 minutes climbs. This is not true, Vingegaard is truly remarkable in every type of climb over 5 minutes. The way he completely cracked everyone by riding a huge tempo in Pertus is something else, I had Pantani vibes!

 

[kn0s]

Wouldnt it be humanly impossible for Pogacar to get better throughout the Tour with the Giro in his legs which is so close to build a new form top I mean its been impossible to accomplish winning both for a very good reason.

Isnt humanly impossible even for Pogacar to get better throughout the tour? Thats the only thing which is in question cause for me cause if so its not really exciting but all comes down to his fatigue from the Giro. Was always the question in play and always the hardest part going in he had to do something which havent been done.

Lets see just struggling too see him getting better throughout the tour.

You seem to be preparing the excuses already, let things play out. Let's put it like this, would you do a low/no competition Grio or spend two weeks in the ICU? This thread was all about how it was zone two training.

Seem to remember you are quite young, right? did you see the last four tours? Sometimes (most times) the twitter/Instagram cycling stuff is of extremely low quality, and not worth your time. That's my opinion anyway.

 

[Medvind]

To say it easy I personally would be surprised if you remove the Giro to see him stick to his wheel yes more than 600meter which he hasnt been able to do yet still with the giro in the legs? Yesterday you can say Pogacar blew up if that is a reason of he was empty like ive seen excuses is not really important for me I fear its more down to the Giro which is only natural. But still he rode away with ease and opened a big gap. In fact im yet to see Vingegaard sustain his number at all even here for more than 600meter. Yesterday came more down to pogacar bonked for whatever reason than anything else.

Let us just look at Vinge's climbing on the 4k penultimate climb yesterday. He was 45s faster than Remco and Rogla, over a minute faster than C-rod, etc. And 30-35 s faster than Pog. Pog was the second fastest, by a margin. But maybe Pog bonked, his legs weren't there in the end, which was true of almost everybody else also, the stage was superhard let us not forget. Vingegaard's performance in itself was incredible and shows an excpetional high level, and that just after 6 weeks of preperation. And Vinge is just as good on longer climbs if not better, where the low weight really benefits him.

I find it hard that one can say with confidence that Pog has the upper hand in the high mountains against Vinge. He can still beat Vinge in the high mountains, but not by riding away with 10 k from the finish, instead he will have to use good tactics and his strenghts over Vinge, and hope that the Jumbo LAB team aren't as strong as last year.

 

[yaco]

UAE have to be smart for the remainder of the race. They have the race lead and can set the tempo for the stage. First rule is to let breakaways go and then soft pace every climb. So if Vingegaard wants to win then Jumbo need to take the iniative and hard pace the climbs, however, I doubt Jumbo's team is strong enough to achieve this aim.

 

[Froome]

You know he won't. He could stayed glued on Vinge's back yesterday after he blew the lead but he didn't.

No, he couldn't. If he stayed on the wheel of Vingegaard, they would slow down a lot, and probably roglic and remco would comeback, and maybe take time on Pogacar, because he was going to be isolated against 3 guys who are still close.

 

[kn0s]

No-one is preparing anything besides stating facts Well then those people was a bit ahead of themselves I personally would say.
Do you remember anyone being able to do the Giro- Tour double in modern time? No, all I'm saying its for a reason its hard how is that a excuse and not just facts no excuse at all And that's not even my opinion but I would argue hard facts that you lose something doing both I wouldn't say that's a excuse at all but simple logical.

It cant be ignored how hard the double is that's ignoring history and that's where the suspense is for me. Same can be said for Vingegaard he aswell might struggle in the last week and if he do its more to do with his preparation more than Pogacar or UAE, that's just my logic on that though.

At my age you would argue that Pantani is modern times. Doing the double, the opposition is very important. Jonas could have done the tour, Vuelta even while being sick the first week, if he wanted to, one hard pull on Angleru and it was a done deal.

Giro-tour is a bit more tricky, but still it's very much about the opposition.

 

[Rou]

It absolutely does happen. You don't need to know how the sausage gets made to tell how it tastes. And you can tell that some riders manage to ride faster later in a GT.

It is simply not true. As I said a rider can appear stronger than the rest late in a GT thanks to his superior recovery. However when it comes to raw power he will always push more power earlier in the race unless he is sick. For example if you put the profile of Stage 19 of this year's TDF and you switch it to be stage 2 I can guarentee you that EVERYONE will push higher watts than if it was Stage 19. Fatigue resistance is real. Growing your form through a GT is not.

 

[Froome]

It is simply not true. As I said a rider can appear stronger than the rest late in a GT thanks to his superior recovery. However when it comes to raw power he will always push more power earlier in the race unless he is sick. For example if you put the profile of Stage 19 of this year's TDF and you switch it to be stage 2 I can guarentee you that EVERYONE will push higher watts than if it was Stage 19. Fatigue resistance is real. Growing your form through a GT is not.

That's no true. There is a lot of riders in the past who improved during a GT to peak in the last week.

Quintana and Andy schleck for example.

 

[Netserk]

It is simply not true. As I said a rider can appear stronger than the rest late in a GT thanks to his superior recovery. However when it comes to raw power he will always push more power earlier in the race unless he is sick. For example if you put the profile of Stage 19 of this year's TDF and you switch it to be stage 2 I can guarentee you that EVERYONE will push higher watts than if it was Stage 19. Fatigue resistance is real. Growing your form through a GT is not.

In cycling it is. They do not arrive at their absolute best on day 1, they plan everything to be as good as possible where it counts.

We have seen plenty examples since the 90's of riders pushing more Watts in absolute terms later in a GT.

 

[Jack_89]

since Pogacar was unable to beat Jonas even without riding the Giro, the fact that he ran it this year will be irrelevant in the event of another defeat.
I would say it is quite logical, after 4 years

 

[Lequack]

Pog and UAE need actual tactics now. They can use their team, and they can even use Remco and Roglic, they want to win and beat Vinge as well.

 

[Netserk]

Landa in particular and the whole Bahrain team in general, gained more Watts during the Vuelta last year. I'm absolutely certain they could push more Watts after the second rest day than they could in the TTT.

 

[BullsFan22]

Next two stages are flat. I don’t think the pace in these stages will be fast, so use it to calm down and ‘relax’ in the field and get ready for a mammoth back to back in Pyrenees. No point for Tadej to attack from far out in either mountain stage. Wait until the final climbs and see where everyone is.

 

[Rackham]

Let us just look at Vinge's climbing on the 4k penultimate climb yesterday. He was 45s faster than Remco and Rogla, over a minute faster than C-rod, etc. And 30-35 s faster than Pog. Pog was the second fastest, by a margin. But maybe Pog bonked, his legs weren't there in the end, which was true of almost everybody else also, the stage was superhard let us not forget. Vingegaard's performance in itself was incredible and shows an excpetional high level, and that just after 6 weeks of preperation. And Vinge is just as good on longer climbs if not better, where the low weight really benefits him.

I find it hard that one can say with confidence that Pog has the upper hand in the high mountains against Vinge. He can still beat Vinge in the high mountains, but not by riding away with 10 k from the finish, instead he will have to use good tactics and his strenghts over Vinge, and hope that the Jumbo LAB team aren't as strong as last year.

What happened yesterday was totally ominous for what's coming next week.

Unless Vingegaard has a sudden drop off in form like Pog had last year, this is only going to end one way: Vingegaard will drop Pog somewhere in the coming mountain stages, go solo to victory & take the jersey.

That section where has was 30-35 seconds faster on a climb than Pog yesterday will be fatal if repeated again. There's no strategy which can defend against better climbing legs, save for some serious outlandish stuff where the opponent makes a huge mistake like launching too soon & getting clawed back.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Pogacar chatting with Roglic but they don’t have a good relationship...

 

[Le Grand Doop]

Landa in particular and the whole Bahrain team in general, gained more Watts during the Vuelta last year. I'm absolutely certain they could push more Watts after the second rest day than they could in the TTT.

if true, this post is in the wrong area of the forum.

 

[Miha81]

No, he couldn't. If he stayed on the wheel of Vingegaard, they would slow down a lot, and probably roglic and remco would comeback, and maybe take time on Pogacar, because he was going to be isolated against 3 guys who are still close.

He could. He does not worry about Remco or Rogla.

But nobody said it would be without its risk. It could blow in his face even harder.

Anyway the point was that it is not his style.