Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[iBanesto]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqvC9Ae1mSU

 

[Krzysztof_O]

The 2027 WC Haute Route apparently has 5,700 meters of elevation, poor souls. Pog is gonna do whatever he wants. They should’ve made it more like an RVV-style route; at least there would be some kind of excitement.

How about Teddy vs Skeletor battle royale in WC 2027? They say the latter isn't a one-day race specialist but it's really about enough elevation gain (on long enough climbs) + preparation targeted for this event.

 

[James M]

Compared to Boonen and Van der Poel, De Vlaeminck was a monster capable of finishing to 10 in a world championship with over 6,000 meters of elevation gain. Insane

Don't involve me in any comparison with the De Vlaeminck and those guys—I can't take it seriously. To me, through no fault of their own, it just doesn't compare to today. De facto, the achievements is simply not comparable.

The level compared to today, for lack of a better word, is pathetic and only highlights the insular competition imo.

 

[Cycling111]

Don't involve me in any comparison with the De Vlaeminck and those guys—I can't take it seriously. To me, through no fault of their own, it just doesn't compare to today. De facto, the achievements is simply not comparable.

The level compared to today, for lack of a better word, is pathetic and only highlights the insular competition imo.

But he lost 4 minutes to Hinault.

How much would VDP lose to Pogacar in this World Championship?

 

[Panda Claws]

Don't involve me in any comparison with the De Vlaeminck and those guys—I can't take it seriously. To me, through no fault of their own, it just doesn't compare to today. De facto, the achievements is simply not comparable.

The level compared to today, for lack of a better word, is pathetic and only highlights the insular competition imo.

If the level was so low back in the day then shouldn't we have had more Merckx' or more riders that could actually win all races (De Vlaeminck for example couldn't).

Throughout cycling history Merckx peaked in an era where the absolute best riders scored more points than they do today. This suggests that indeed the top was less deep back then. Yet that difference wasn't massive and there have been eras (90s come to mind where top riders often scored lower than today).

Nobody began approaching Merckx' overall achievements until Pogacar today. I find your stance too dismissive overall.

Level was surely lower but so would Pogacar's have been back then. If we compare Merckx' achievements to other cyclists throughout history he seems to have been as big of an outlier (if not more) than Pogacar is today. I wouldn't be sure that Pogacar would have been an equally big outlier if he had raced back then. Comparisons of absolute levels aren't that useful. It's like dissing Socrates for what he couldn't have known.

It's not all bad for Pogacar either. The field may be deeper today (though who knows, this could still be a somewhat weak generation and the sport hasn't necessarily gotten enough appeal outside of Europe to overrule the lower interest among Italian prospects today) but Pogacar still benefits from much better nutrition and training allowing for more longevity and much better material which can help with the cobbles.

What Merckx has done has been completely unique until, perhaps, Pogacar but that's still to be seen. Doing this, or similar, today is likely a more impressive achievement but let's not forget that nobody (Pogacar isn't there yet) came close to Merckx whatsoever.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Level was surely lower but so would Pogacar's have been back then. If we compare Merckx' achievements to other cyclists throughout history he seems to have been as big of an outlier (if not more) than Pogacar is today. I wouldn't be sure that Pogacar would have been an equally big outlier if he had raced back then. Comparisons of absolute levels aren't that useful. It's like dissing Socrates for what he couldn't have known.

The less deep is top level (i.e. pros are selected from a smaller population of riders) the bigger outlier a top talent (like Merckx) becomes. Take Pogacar vs current cyclists only from Slovenia + Belgium + Spain for example and he's the current holder of 5 monuments + 2 GTs + WC so a bigger outlier than ever. Multiply a population of riders by N and suddenly multiple outliers happen and they rival against each other sharing victories (like Pogacar and MVP). OTOH In Merckx time cyclists from eastern Europe couldn't even compete there (and many races were like Belgium championships). It's simple maths and has nothing to do with absolute level or nutrition.

 

[Cycling111]

The less deep is top level (i.e. pros are selected from a smaller population of riders) the bigger outlier a top talent (like Merckx) becomes. Take Pogacar vs current cyclists only from Slovenia + Belgium + Spain for example and he's the current holder of 5 monuments + 2 GTs + WC so a bigger outlier than ever. Multiply a population of riders by N and suddenly multiple outliers happen and they rival against each other sharing victories (like Pogacar and MVP). OTOH In Merckx time cyclists from eastern Europe couldn't even compete there (and many races were like Belgium championships). It's simple maths and has nothing to do with absolute level or nutrition.

Agreed.

I didn't say the level was higher before, but rather that successful cyclists had to be well-rounded and tough.

Now they're much more specialized. VDP can't compete in Sallanches, but the level of VDP in Roubaix is much more specialized than it was in the 1970s. Beating a specialist like VDP is more difficult now. That's why there are so few riders who are competitive in many races. For this reason, Pogacar's merit is greater.

 

[BubbaChuck]

we did have more riders,who could win more races back in merckx era.in fact,if you look at any list of top all round great riders thye come from that era.in other words pog is bigger anomaly than eddie, when it comes to its peers.there is noone in modern cycyling since hinault,who does what pog does.ask vdp,jonas or remco,if you dont believe me.

 

[BubbaChuck]

its basically commono *** from that era.we did all the races.off course you did in era of plumbers.with all due respect.

 

[MerkantilMerch]

If the level was so low back in the day then shouldn't we have had more Merckx' or more riders that could actually win all races (De Vlaeminck for example couldn't).

Throughout cycling history Merckx peaked in an era where the absolute best riders scored more points than they do today. This suggests that indeed the top was less deep back then. Yet that difference wasn't massive and there have been eras (90s come to mind where top riders often scored lower than today).

Nobody began approaching Merckx' overall achievements until Pogacar today. I find your stance too dismissive overall.

Level was surely lower but so would Pogacar's have been back then. If we compare Merckx' achievements to other cyclists throughout history he seems to have been as big of an outlier (if not more) than Pogacar is today. I wouldn't be sure that Pogacar would have been an equally big outlier if he had raced back then. Comparisons of absolute levels aren't that useful. It's like dissing Socrates for what he couldn't have known.

It's not all bad for Pogacar either. The field may be deeper today (though who knows, this could still be a somewhat weak generation and the sport hasn't necessarily gotten enough appeal outside of Europe to overrule the lower interest among Italian prospects today) but Pogacar still benefits from much better nutrition and training allowing for more longevity and much better material which can help with the cobbles.

What Merckx has done has been completely unique until, perhaps, Pogacar but that's still to be seen. Doing this, or similar, today is likely a more impressive achievement but let's not forget that nobody (Pogacar isn't there yet) came close to Merckx whatsoever.

Nope Pogacar is a bigger outlier than Merckx because he is beating specialists in their own fields.

Merckx was the best among others doing the same. Gimondi won Paris Roubaix and MSR. De Vlaeminck (the only classic specialist) finished 4th of the Giro, 1 minute behind Gimondi.

Pogi is beating MVDP, Mads Pedersen who finish GTs 2 hours late. And and the same time Vingegaard who wouldnt finish top 50 in PR even with an entire year of preparation.

 

[BubbaChuck]

i have nothing but respect for history,but eddie records are like wilt chamberlain in nba.cant take them seriusly.nobody think wilt is goat,despite putin crazy numbers.he is even more unreachable than eddie.its possible to think someone will win 19 monuments,but who will avarage 50 20 20 per game.lets be serius.

 

[James M]

OTOH In Merckx time cyclists from eastern Europe couldn't even compete there (and many races were like Belgium championships). It's simple maths and has nothing to do with absolute level or nutrition.

Emotions aside. It's impossible to objectively judge one win back then as equal to the same win now in terms of how great the achievement is, it just is(whoever it is who win) simply due to basic math indeed.

And, that's through no fault of their own, but nevertheless, is the reality and makes it not comparable.

 

[Netserk]

The less deep is top level (i.e. pros are selected from a smaller population of riders) the bigger outlier a top talent (like Merckx) becomes. Take Pogacar vs current cyclists only from Slovenia + Belgium + Spain for example and he's the current holder of 5 monuments + 2 GTs + WC so a bigger outlier than ever. Multiply a population of riders by N and suddenly multiple outliers happen and they rival against each other sharing victories (like Pogacar and MVP). OTOH In Merckx time cyclists from eastern Europe couldn't even compete there (and many races were like Belgium championships). It's simple maths and has nothing to do with absolute level or nutrition.

Did the talent pool shrink over the past decade, or why is it so much easier to dominate now than then?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Did the talent pool shrink over the past decade, or why is it so much easier to dominate now than then?

This is an interesting question. Pogi aside, so called Big5 (or Big6) is quite dominant in their field. Either the global talent pool shrank indeed or there are a few outliers more than usual at the same time (like Big3 in tennis). I tend to think the latter is more likely.

OTOH I don't have doubts regarding talent pool depth if we compare the current races top10 with those 50 years ago (when in many of them the majority was from one country).

 

[Poggenheimer]

Sexy

Indeed!

 

[Netserk]

This is an interesting question. Pogi aside, so called Big5 (or Big6) is quite dominant in their field. Either the global talent pool shrank indeed or there are a few outliers more than usual at the same time (like Big3 in tennis). I tend to think the latter is more likely.

OTOH I don't have doubts regarding talent pool depth if we compare the current races top10 with those 50 years ago (when in many of them the majority was from one country).

I tend to think it's a case of omitted variables.

 

[Cycling111]

Did the talent pool shrink over the past decade, or why is it so much easier to dominate now than then?

Boonen and Cancellara, having been together, have won 4 and 3 PRs, 3 and 3 De Ronde, 5 Harelbeke, 3 Strade Bianche, and 4 ITT World Championships.

It was a dominant era; two of them won practically everything 3 or 4 times in the big classics.
They spent a decade together and between them they won 8 PR and 6 De Ronde, if that isn't dominance...


The difference now is that Van Aert isn't winning as much as expected, and Van der Poel´s main rival in the classics is Pogacar, who doesn't participate every year becaus of Giro, or one-week gaces.


And in GT, Ineos won 7 consecutive TDFs with 4 different riders. Froome 4. This was a strong dominance for one team.

Only Visma has won 3 GTs with 3 different riders; not even UAE, with its current team can win a GT with anyone other than Pogacar. Imagine winning no Giro or Vuelta, winning seven consecutive TDF with four riders.
That was a ridicolous dominance.

I don't think the current era is more dominant than Froome, Cancellara, Boonen era.
What's changed is the way they dominated.

Sky with their own style with sky-train and rarely changed their winning style.
Boonen and Cancellara competed in every race. Not just the Monuments, in all the classics like Ghent and E3. Pogacar and VDP only competedeach other in Monuments and WC, and VDP didn't even compete in all the classics. Boonen and Cancellara competed in all of them.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I tend to think it's a case of omitted variables.

Clinical stuff and more pronounced than ever peloton à deux vitesse? Maybe.

 

[Cycling111]

Clinical stuff and more pronounced than ever peloton à deux vitesse? Maybe.

You mean Sky, which won 7 consecutive Tours with 4 riders, didn't have two speeds?

Or Boonen and Cancellara, who won 7 PRs between them in 10 years?

The past decade for me was a dominanced ecade. Different, but dominance by Froome and Sky with 7 TDF Fs , and Boonen and Candellara.

With this era being so dominant, we'll see if in the 10-year there are less than two Roubaix wins in the hands of other riders. VDP has lost two; in the next five years, he and Pogacar will have to 4/5 PR to equal the dominance of two riders at Roubaix in the previous decade.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

You mean Sky, which won 7 consecutive Tours with 4 riders, didn't have two speeds?

Or Boonen and Cancellara, who won 7 PRs between them in 10 years?

The past decade for me was a dominanced ecade. Different, but dominance by Froome and Sky with 7 TDF Fs , and Boonen and Candellara.

With this era being so dominant, we'll see if in the 10-year there are less than two Roubaix wins in the hands of other riders. VDP has lost two; in the next five years, he and Pogacar will have to 4/5 PR to equal the dominance of two riders at Roubaix in the previous decade.

You have a point indeed regarding the previous era.

 

[Red Rick]

You have a point indeed regarding the previous era.

The man is doing some Vincenzo Nibali erasure which I will not stand for.

I am currently sticking needles into my voodoo teddy bear.

 

[Poggenheimer]

Will Pog race AGR?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

The man is doing some Vincenzo Nibali erasure which I will not stand for.

I am currently sticking needles into my voodoo teddy bear.

Calm down (too red) Rick. Just relax and celebrate that Pogi actually lost two out of his last three races!

 

[James M]

How about Teddy vs Skeletor battle royale in WC 2027? They say the latter isn't a one-day race specialist but it's really about enough elevation gain (on long enough climbs) + preparation targeted for this event.

Without going into speculation about other things as continue to push and further improve, which after all are speculation.

I mean, in a route with 5,700 meters of elevation, if he preperation targeted for this, sure indeed, but in terms of making it as exciting as RVV versus MvdP, it just doesn't translate in that sense for me. That's all.

 

[James M]

I might be mistaken, but I think the climb is only 2.5km aswell, done 20 times. Not the best, but the elevation should help him at least. Hopefully, he’s at the start that I fully agree on for sure.