Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Cookster15]

That altitude related problem is such a myth. Every single time he got dropped or had issues, it was below 2000m

Every single time?

2020 TdF lost 15 seconds to Roglic at the top of Loze - 2300 metres.

2022 TdF collapsed on Granon - 2400 metres. Dropped in the final 5km eventually conceding nearly 3 minutes. Yes he was overconfident trying to respond to attacks from both Vingegaard and Roglic but it still happened at over 2,000 metres.

2023 TdF collapsed on Loze again - losing 5’44”. About half that time loss was in the final 5km. His famous “I am dead” moment.

So we see there were valid reasons to doubt Pogacar at altitude. Not any more.

 

[vappaxbipmv]

Every single time?

2020 TdF lost 15 seconds to Roglic at the top of Loze - 2300 metres.

2022 TdF collapsed on Granon - 2400 metres. Dropped in the final 5km eventually conceding nearly 3 minutes. Yes he was overconfident trying to respond to attacks from both Vingegaard and Roglic but it still happened at over 2,000 metres.

2023 TdF collapsed on Loze again - losing 5’44”. About half that time loss was in the final 5km. His famous “I am dead” moment.

So we see there were valid reasons to doubt Pogacar at altitude. Not any more.

I'll give you the first one but that's pretty much the only time

The other two happened below 2000m, Granon was close but just under and "I'm gone, I'm dead" happened at altitude around 1600m so well below. He would have been heavily dropped at sea level on those days as well, he was just bad there for various reasons, altitude had nothing to do with it. So really there's only 1 example of him being dropped at altitude and whether altitude actually played a role is debatable. The other 2 times shouldn't be included

 

[Lorzenz08]

But as we keep saying he is 27 now so not sure how long his body can hold this stratospheric level.

My bet would be until 30 if he is not injured

 

[CyclistAbi]

When the exceptional riders weren't exceptional, but Rogla at his peak.

In terms of Pogi the article says he could win Vuelta 2019 if Rogla wouldn't get help. So if that was peak Rogla, as you claim, that is exceptional feat. And besides, Rogla won so much that claiming no exceptional rider was ever involved, that IMHO isn't an exceptional claim, that is just plain old unfunded trash talk.

 

[Cookster15]

I'll give you the first one but that's pretty much the only time

The other two happened below 2000m, Granon was close but just under and "I'm gone, I'm dead" happened at altitude around 1600m so well below. He would have been heavily dropped at sea level on those days as well, he was just bad there for various reasons, altitude had nothing to do with it. So really there's only 1 example of him being dropped at altitude and whether altitude actually played a role is debatable. The other 2 times shouldn't be included

Perhaps. But the other point is it wasn’t just the altitude at the point he was dropped but what happened after he was dropped on those occasions. On Granon in particular he lost huge time as the road went higher above 2,000m (stage finished at >2,400m).

Like I said, not doubting him at altitude since 2024 but before then there were valid doubts IMO.

 

[AmRacer]

In terms of Pogi the article says he could win Vuelta 2019 if Rogla wouldn't get help. So if that was peak Rogla, as you claim, that is exceptional feat. And besides, Rogla won so much that claiming no exceptional rider was ever involved, that IMHO isn't an exceptional claim, that is just plain old unfunded trash talk.

If Pogi had won, it would have been extremely exceptional.

 

[vappaxbipmv]

Perhaps. But the other point is it wasn’t just the altitude at the point he was dropped but what happened after he was dropped on those occasions. On Granon in particular he lost huge time as the road went higher above 2,000m (stage finished at >2,400m).

Like I said, not doubting him at altitude since 2024 but before then there were valid doubts IMO.

His problem was long climbs and those typically end at altitude. He also got dropped on Ventoux, Hautacam and Marie Blanque, all more than 20min, all have nothing to do with 2000m. I don't see any evidence that altitude was ever a problem so in my view that's a myth

 

[CyclistAbi]

If Pogi had won, it would have been extremely exceptional.

I see, contrary to what Gianetti said you firmly believe Pogi was no match at all for Rogla. Fair enough.

 

[AmRacer]

I see, contrary to what Gianetti said you firmly believe Pogi was no match at all for Rogla. Fair enough.

Nope, your words only. Not mine.

 

[Oldman]

His problem was long climbs and those typically end at altitude. He also got dropped on Ventoux, Hautacam and Marie Blanque, all more than 20min, all have nothing to do with 2000m. I don't see any evidence that altitude was ever a problem so in my view that's a myth

I don't think you can ever say that getting dropped above 2,000m is a myth. Living at just below that elevation I can assure you what happens when you get above it relates entirely to how often you prepare at 2-3,000 m. Absent any regular training; the pulse rate will cap out and additional effort is almost impossible. Add a little heat and it's worse.

 

[Oldman]

Every single time?

2020 TdF lost 15 seconds to Roglic at the top of Loze - 2300 metres.

2022 TdF collapsed on Granon - 2400 metres. Dropped in the final 5km eventually conceding nearly 3 minutes. Yes he was overconfident trying to respond to attacks from both Vingegaard and Roglic but it still happened at over 2,000 metres.

2023 TdF collapsed on Loze again - losing 5’44”. About half that time loss was in the final 5km. His famous “I am dead” moment.

So we see there were valid reasons to doubt Pogacar at altitude. Not any more.

The '23 Loze incident was a total energy bonk. He was in a large group of riders that normally only see his rear wheel disappearing. It looked like both tires were flat and no one was attacking.
Jonas had to look around to confirm he was gone before he attacked. That is an outlier.

 

[Oldman]

Perhaps. But the other point is it wasn’t just the altitude at the point he was dropped but what happened after he was dropped on those occasions. On Granon in particular he lost huge time as the road went higher above 2,000m (stage finished at >2,400m).

Like I said, not doubting him at altitude since 2024 but before then there were valid doubts IMO.

He likely knows how to train and race for that elevation. Steady efforts and not much jumpy accelerations seem to be his solution, now. Get a gap at lower heights and then steadily maintain it while forcing the others into the red zone to close.

 

[vappaxbipmv]

I don't think you can ever say that getting dropped above 2,000m is a myth. Living at just below that elevation I can assure you what happens when you get above it relates entirely to how often you prepare at 2-3,000 m. Absent any regular training; the pulse rate will cap out and additional effort is almost impossible. Add a little heat and it's worse.

2000m is not some hard deck, it's not like below it you're good and above it you're *** without preparing for it. About 2 years ago I was in Nepal, at 3500+ for a week. Until that elevation I noticed no change at all, in heart rate or respiration rate, 3000m I was completely fine. It's not like at 1900m you're fine and at 2100m you're struggling, it's much more gradual

 

[SHAD0W93]

The '23 Loze incident was a total energy bonk. He was in a large group of riders that normally only see his rear wheel disappearing. It looked like both tires were flat and no one was attacking.
Jonas had to look around to confirm he was gone before he attacked. That is an outlier.

Not to mention the mental trauma Pogacar was going through after Vingegaard destroyed him the day before and then crashing during the stage. All of that added up to the Loze cracking.

 

[Oldman]

2000m is not some hard deck, it's not like below it you're good and above it you're *** without preparing for it. About 2 years ago I was in Nepal, at 3500+ for a week. Until that elevation I noticed no change at all, in heart rate or respiration rate, 3000m I was completely fine. It's not like at 1900m you're fine and at 2100m you're struggling, it's much more gradual

it is but the general discussion was that 2000m posed a barrier. There is also the challenge of competing, attacking and responding at an altitude that aren't the same as a measured effort.
Racing repeatedly 2,000 m with sea level preparation; that elevation proved to be monumental in separation from those competitors (Utah, Colorado) that were struggling at lower heights. We actually called the turn up to the Mt Bachelor summit parking lot the "I-5 turnout" at 4,500' because every rider in the front group not from 6000' could not go any faster or the same speed at the end of an 80 mile race. Those same acclimated riders, used to gradual accelerations at higher elevations were completely shelled in an aggressive criterium at 4,000' the next day.
My guess is their power was a product of the higher elevation pacing and our inability to maintain or adjust pace was equally from not training there. Of course every rider is an individual but a Belgian kermesse rider will not hold the wheel of a 130 lb. Columbian or Ecuadorian climber...likely ever above 2000 to 3000m.

 

[Oldman]

MVdp wants the cx worlds record and then to chill in Spain all winter, not Paris Nice.

Don't we all. After that do you think he wants to continue getting fluids thrown at him in the same Belgian races? He can do other things and still afford his Lambo (s).

 

[CyclistAbi]

Nope, your words only. Not mine.

Well this is what you said:

When the exceptional riders weren't exceptional, but Rogla at his peak.

If Pogi had won, it would have been extremely exceptional.

Such claims IMHO align perfectly with what i wrote:

I see, contrary to what Gianetti said you firmly believe Pogi was no match at all for Rogla. Fair enough.

 

[AmRacer]

Well this is what you said:





Such claims IMHO align perfectly with what i wrote:

Yes, and totally different from your words.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@AmRacer

Totally.