Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Ancalagon]

Maybe for you but for the 99% of the cycling world the Vuelta is bigger. We can delude ourselves by not liking some race but reality is reality.
I prefer LBL and GDL to MSR but MSR is more prestigious. That's it.

Not at all. The World Championships are at least on par with the Vuelta in terms of prestige and significance (I'd say they're a step above, though I'm open to other views). And LBL definitely carries more weight than MSR historically. Even looking at how riders prepare: many make LBL one of their two primary goals for the season. That’s much rarer for MSR, given the nature of the race and where it sits on the calendar. It’s actually quite common to hear riders call LBL a career-defining goal, which you just don't hear as often about MSR.

 

[Red Rick]

Where did Pogacar wasted much more energy than WVA? Excluding misfortunes.

Not waiting for teammates, solo closing the gap to the group in front when they're clearly waiting. A lot of leaving a small gap on the cobbles. General cornering on the cobbles. Just being less aerodynamic than he could be with his body size. I also saw him move to the front in the wind by himself at like 180km to go

 

[Red Rick]

Not at all. The World Championships are at least on par with the Vuelta in terms of prestige and significance (I'd say they're a step above, though I'm open to other views). And LBL definitely carries more weight than MSR historically. Even looking at how riders prepare: many make LBL one of their two primary goals for the season. That’s much rarer for MSR, given the nature of the race and where it sits on the calendar. It’s actually quite common to hear riders call LBL a career-defining goal, which you just don't hear as often about MSR.

Nobody makes LBL or Sanremo their primary goal of the season. It's like 3rd biggest for at most for most.

The reason for Pog to focus on the WC over the Vuelta is scarcity and opportunity cost. WC routes that suit him are rarer, it's a more prestigious record to hold, and it doesn't have the chance of collapsing by Lombardia.

 

[canina82]

The Vuelta is more important than the WC.
GTs are the essence of this sport, not classics.
Many riders target GTs and not the WC. And it's easier to have an upset in a WC than in a GT. In GTs, (almost) only world class riders (or close to world class) can win them while in WCs, we can have a random rider win them.

 

[Coppi-Bartali]

Right. And it's about the projection of power as well that sticks long after a rider has retired. Consider this: demolishing the Giro for fun with a ten minute lead looks far more impressive than a two man sprint versus Pidcock to win MSR. Pog needs more Giro 2024 style GT wins.

Last year's TdF left a bad impression as well because he was sulking in the third week.

You're talking about the Giro, not the Vuelta. Winning the Vuelta by 10 minutes against Dani Martinez won´t give any more prestige than winning Monuments in modern cycling. This involves proving himself to be a complete cyclist in a sport that bears no resemblance to what it was 40 years ago. Right now, that's bringing him more prestige than winning a Vuelta against Enric Mas, which everyone knows he could win effortlessly.

But we wouldn't even be talking about San Remo. He doesn´t do the Vuelta because of the World Championships.
4 World Championships record prestige >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 Vuelta.

 

[canina82]

Nobody makes LBL or Sanremo their primary goal of the season. It's like 3rd biggest for at most for most.

The reason for Pog to focus on the WC over the Vuelta is scarcity and opportunity cost. WC routes that suit him are rarer, it's a more prestigious record to hold, and it doesn't have the chance of collapsing by Lombardia.

I can assure you Bettini, Gilbert, Healy, Ciccone look(ed) to LBL as their primary goal.

 

[Coppi-Bartali]

I can assure you Bettini, Gilbert, Healy, Ciccone look(ed) to LBL as their primary goal.

Valverde, Remco.

 

[Rackham]

You're talking about the Giro, not the Vuelta. Winning the Vuelta by 10 minutes against Dani Martinez won´t give any more prestige than winning Monuments in modern cycling. This involves proving himself to be a complete cyclist in a sport that bears no resemblance to what it was 40 years ago. Right now, that's bringing him more prestige than winning a Vuelta against Enric Mas, which everyone knows he could win effortlessly.

But we wouldn't even be talking about San Remo. He doesn´t do the Vuelta because of the World Championships.
4 World Championships record prestige >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 Vuelta.

It would when you count the fact he'd be winning 5-10 stages per GT. I think people really underestimate the glory to be had in GT's. Especially in the archive reels. Pog took the Monument obsession and dialled it up to a level where IMO he's sacrificing certain GT wins to chase more Monuments.

I can't see how Pog fans can't see this, i.e. just wait until you see Vingegaard dropping nukes next month in the Giro. If you don't get that "oh damn I wish Pogi was here demolishing this guy" itch then I don't know what to say really.

And was MSR even that big of a deal? A month later I don't see it. You're talking about the same race Arnaud Démare once won. So you might smack talk the Vuelta, Giro and riders like Martinez or Enric Mas but that's cycling. Just as some even lesser known riders have won Monuments before.

 

[Ancalagon]

Nobody makes LBL or Sanremo their primary goal of the season. It's like 3rd biggest for at most for most.

The reason for Pog to focus on the WC over the Vuelta is scarcity and opportunity cost. WC routes that suit him are rarer, it's a more prestigious record to hold, and it doesn't have the chance of collapsing by Lombardia.

Many cyclists consider LBL to be one of the two major highlights of their season. I recall an interview with Gaudu three or four years ago where he stated it was LBL and the Tour. Just the other day, I heard an interview with a young French prospect who even called it the ultimate goal of his career.

Even this season, it remains one of Seixas's two main priorities (alongside the Tour) or perhaps his single biggest goal if he doesn't end up riding the Tour.

It’s the definitive race for an entire category of riders.

 

[Coppi-Bartali]

Cyclists are becoming increasingly idiotic because of radio dependency. The lack of a radio doesn't excuse the slow reaction time.A domestique has to be aware of his leader and not waste 15 minutes noticing he's gone before reacting. Phillipsen reacted immediately, although Alpecin's solution was absurd.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2043626649657217116

View: https://x.com/andreas_wind/status/2043626649657217116?s=20

 

[Peter von]

Cyclists are becoming increasingly idiotic because of radio dependency. The lack of a radio doesn't excuse the slow reaction time.A domestique has to be aware of his leader and not waste 15 minutes noticing he's gone before reacting. Phillipsen reacted immediately, although Alpecin's solution was absurd.

View: https://x.com/andreas_wind/status/2043626649657217116?s=20

wow sour grapes from mr Bjerg!
(well maybe his tone was better with audio, but can't listen atm).

Yeah UAE doms needed to have been on point here and help Pogi back ASAP, you need two dudes looking out for your leader at all times. It's their own damn fault.

 

[rafa92]

The Vuelta is more important than the WC.
GTs are the essence of this sport, not classics.
Many riders target GTs and not the WC. And it's easier to have an upset in a WC than in a GT. In GTs, (almost) only world class riders (or close to world class) can win them while in WCs, we can have a random rider win them.

clearly you don't know the history of cycling, WC has always been something special, for all the riders but also for the cycling world in general. Vuelta is nowhere close to WC in terms of prestige. After the Tour, WC is the most prestigious race a cyclist can win, this is what the history of cycling says. In the past the Giro was more prestigious, I am talking 40-50 years ago, but over the decades it has lost quite a lot. So right now WC is ahead also of the Giro.
"while in WCs, we can have a random rider win them": what exactly do you mean by that? to win a wc you have to do something special, clearly it can happen that in some years there is a less strong rider winning a WC but that's true also for the Vuelta (just look at the winners in the two races in the last decades)

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

It would when you count the fact he'd be winning 5-10 stages per GT. I think people really underestimate the glory to be had in GT's. Especially in the archive reels. Pog took the Monument obsession and dialled it up to a level where IMO he's sacrificing certain GT wins to chase more Monuments.

I can't see how Pog fans can't see this, i.e. just wait until you see Vingegaard dropping nukes next month in the Giro. If you don't get that "oh damn I wish Pogi was here demolishing this guy" itch then I don't know what to say really.

And was MSR even that big of a deal? A month later I don't see it. You're talking about the same race Arnaud Démare once won. So you might smack talk the Vuelta, Giro and riders like Martinez or Enric Mas but that's cycling. Just as some even lesser known riders have won Monuments before.

When we look back in future, I understand your argument for his legacy.
As a cycling fan I’d rather see Pog fighting tooth and nail with the specialists in the monuments than giving Vingegaard a predictable beating in the giro, though.

 

[vappa]

Yesterday may have been proof that Pogacar will never eclipse Merckx, as great as he is.
With Van der Poel out of contention he still couldn’t win.
I Hope Tadej wins Roubaix one day, but Merckx would simply not have lost if given the circumstances of yesterday.

Do enlighten me how Merckx, cooked from mechanicals and chasing, would beat a guy who pulls a lot less than him, has almost 15kgs extra and has a far superior sprint

Unless that was sarcasm which a missed

 

[Rou]

clearly you don't know the history of cycling, WC has always been something special, for all the riders but also for the cycling world in general. Vuelta is nowhere close to WC in terms of prestige. After the Tour, WC is the most prestigious race a cyclist can win, this is what the history of cycling says. In the past the Giro was more prestigious, I am talking 40-50 years ago, but over the decades it has lost quite a lot. So right now WC is ahead also of the Giro.
"while in WCs, we can have a random rider win them": what exactly do you mean by that? to win a wc you have to do something special, clearly it can happen that in some years there is a less strong rider winning a WC but that's true also for the Vuelta (just look at the winners in the two races in the last decades)

Mark Cavendish has won a WC. In 2 years a rider like Tim Merlier will be a world champion. What are you even talking about?
Pogacar will retire as one of the Goats because of his GT palmares - the one day wins are just bonus.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Mark Cavendish has won a WC. In 2 years a rider like Tim Merlier will be a world champion. What are you even talking about?
Pogacar will retire as one of the Goats because of his GT palmares - the one day wins are just bonus.

Froome and Contador arent among the GOATs. Merckx, Hinault and Coppi are. Guess why? Pogacar is following the path of all round champions and it should be this way. As far as GTs are concerned, winning 6 TdF ( and 4 WC on top of that) will likely put him on par with Merckx.

 

[fenns]

As long as he is able to contend the yellow jersey Pog will always prioritise the Tour - it's prestige dwarfs every other event - and the gap between it and the rest gets greater every year. Maybe he can train for PR when he's 33 or something

 

[Coppi-Bartali]

Do enlighten me how Merckx, cooked from mechanicals and chasing, would beat a guy who pulls a lot less than him, has almost 15kgs extra and has a far superior sprint

Unless that was sarcasm which a missed

Merckx has more victories but also twice as many days of competition, like most cyclists of that era, which in turn means his loss ratio is also higher than Pogacar's in the Classics.

He won more, but he also lost more. The idea that Merckx never lost is a myth. He had several notable defeats, but he competed so much and won so much that it becomes irrelevant over time.
Look at the statistics, his number of defeats in Monuments is higher than the number of defeats of Pogacar and MVDP in Monuments.

These debates about the Merckx era seem absurd to me; they're such different times.
Merckx also tested positive three times and was expelled from the Giro d'Italia, but he was allowed to participate in the Tour de France, which he won by minutes. Nowadays, he would have been banned and wouldn't have won that Tour. Everything was different.

 

[Rou]

Froome and Contador arent among the GOATs. Merckx, Hinault and Coppi are. Guess why? Pogacar is following the path of all round champions and it should be this way. As far as GTs are concerned, winning 6 TdF ( and 4 WC on top of that) will likely put him on par with Merckx.

Froome and Contador are much more accomplished riders than Monument machines like Cancellara and Boonen because GT wins are so above Monuments.

 

[Red Rick]

I can assure you Bettini, Gilbert, Healy, Ciccone look(ed) to LBL as their primary goal.

Well the fact that were down to riders like Healy and Ciccone for modern specialists doesnt paint a rosy picture

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Froome and Contador are much more accomplished riders than Monument machines like Cancellara and Boonen because GT wins are so above Monuments.

And way less than all round machines I mentioned. Being good on high climbs is like being a one trick pony. Pogacar is so much more than that and as you know there are various terrains in cycling, so many different roads. Yes, adding PR would mean more in his career than adding Vuelta due to this historical context (of being able to win against the best on any terrain, like Merckx was).

 

[rafa92]

Mark Cavendish has won a WC. In 2 years a rider like Tim Merlier will be a world champion. What are you even talking about?
Pogacar will retire as one of the Goats because of his GT palmares - the one day wins are just bonus.

yes and horner, casero, giovannetti have won the vuelta, I guess nobody has ever heard of these names. And this list (of barely known riders who have won) is very long for the vuelta. You don't get the point, all the races have some less good riders on their list of winners, but in the history of cycling the WC is something special for the entire system, if you follow closely the sport over many years you would know this.
"the one day wins are just bonus": completely wrong, what makes pogacar special is precisely his ability to win both GTs and classics+WCs, if he only was capable of winning GTs he would be in the same category of froome, contador, indurain.. not certainly in the category of Merckx, Hinault and Coppi. Pogacar is already in the top 4 of all time thanks to his versatility

 

[Coppi-Bartali]

Froome and Contador are much more accomplished riders than Monument machines like Cancellara and Boonen because GT wins are so above Monuments.

Don't twist things; he mentioned cyclists who won Grand Tours and Monuments, not just Monuments.

But, getting back to your defense of the Vuelta. Nobody even remotely considers Froome to next to Indurain. Indurain won zero Vuelta but one more Tour de France. The Vuelta doesn't matter to anyone when it comes to the final assessment.

 

[Rou]

And way less than all round machines I mentioned. Being good on high climbs is like being a one trick pony. Pogacar is so much more than that and as you know there are various terrains in cycling, so many different roads. Yes, adding PR would mean more in his career than adding Vuelta due to this historical context (of being able to win against the best on any terrain, like Merckx was).

Let me remind you that Pogacar has his current aura exactly because of his high climbs in July.
In 2023 he was also considered the most complete rider but Vingegaard made him look like a muppet in July.
If Pog wins 4 Monuments this year + World's but Vingegaard mops him in July it would have a sour feeling.
Don't you think so?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Let me remind you that Pogacar has his current aura exactly because of his high climbs in July.
In 2023 he was also considered the most complete rider but Vingegaard made him look like a muppet in July.
If Pog wins 4 Monuments this year + World's but Vingegaard mops him in July it would have a sour feeling.
Don't you think so?

Tour is the most important, no doubts but you were talking about the Vuelta (which is << Tour). I dont get your point as Pogacar rides the Tour every year and is aiming for the record. Winning many Tour plus monuments and WC can make him co GOAT.