Taking clenbuterol

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Jun 19, 2009
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GreasyMonkey said:
I have never research Clenbuterol as a broncho-dilator, but assuming the effects are similar to Salbutamol, then it will do nothing for a non-restricted bronchii.



If it was masking other drugs in some test, it is a very blunt "instrument" to be so masked by a totally different drug. (a screening test, I would presume).

My understanding of Mass Spectrometry is that it is very capable of isolating different substances within a single test sample, so the chances of one drug completely "masking" another of a different class/compound would be near impossible in MS testing, but of course the "quick and easy" screens could be fooled.
If so, I would expect that the testing protocol should allow for follow-up to confirm that only the drug for which the TUE is issued is present, nothing else.
You are correct even in the early days of testing. I think the "quick and easy" described the window dressing that was testing of that era. Other threads have dealt with rider's being shaken down for tests to disappear and other petty racketeering by the "officials" of that time. No way it would mask anything but very closely associated drug.
So back to the question: as it is unlikely Clenbuterol, or more commonly used Salbutamol would have a beneficial effect did the UCI's classification of it come from known associations with PED regimes? Realistically these guys don't blood boost without other PED activities on their agenda. So what would you take Clen typically accompany in a cheating-type regime?
The end point is if it's banned in minute amounts there has to be some known rationale based on experience with accompanying programmed drug use that do benefit performance. It is hard to accept they would use it solely for weight loss or is it that simple?
 
Nov 24, 2010
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Brand names for the generic Clenbuterol are: Clenasna, Monores, Novegam, Prontovent, Spiropent, Broncoterol, Bronchodil, Cesbron, Clenbuter, Pharmachim, Contrasmina, Contraspasmina, Oxyflux, Ventolase, Ventapulmin and Clenbumar.

Some countries approve of its use as a bronchodilator for asthma patients.

Produces an increase in skeletal muscle mass and a decrease in body fat.

Has a long half life of approximately 35 hours.

With repeated doses clen will accumulate.

97% of Clen will clear from the body in approximately eight days.

IOC banned Clenbuterol on April 21, 1992.

Clenbuterol is an extremely attractive drug for athletes because of the ability to modify body structure and function.

The ability to promote muscle protein synthesis and reduce muscle protein degradation. <-- Does that mean better recovery?

source http://books.google.com.au/books?id=nPJaTdp47mcC&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=clenbuterol+asmatic&source=bl&ots=HFAFbOhloy&sig=jrsOx43x5eQ_PPSke-qfmTd-FUY&hl=en&ei=kHVsTdaEGYqmcMz-mbQF&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q&f=false

cheers
 
Jan 30, 2011
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GreasyMonkey said:
My understanding of Mass Spectrometry is that it is very capable of isolating different substances within a single test sample, so the chances of one drug completely "masking" another of a different class/compound would be near impossible in MS testing, but of course the "quick and easy" screens could be fooled.
If so, I would expect that the testing protocol should allow for follow-up to confirm that only the drug for which the TUE is issued is present, nothing else.
There are different forms of mass spectrometry and the only one that has a separation capability is time-of-flight (TOF-MS) which is used for the analysis of large molecules such as proteins and is not widely used in routine drug screening. Tandem systems (MS coupled to MS) can also be used to isolate components, but tandem mass spectrometry is also not widely used in analysis, except when coupled to a liquid chromatograph (see below); and even then, chromatography is the preferred method to separate components rather than using multi-dimensional MS for that purpose.

In general for screening, MS is coupled to some form of chromatography, which takes care of the separation of a mixture into individual components for the MS to analyse. However if two components exit the chromatograph at the same (or close to same) time, one can mask the presence of the other making simple library searching less useful.

In order to overcome that, there are mathematical approaches to separate out the components with software and these deconvolution methods are becoming more widely used, but still not in all laboratories (not even in the majority, still a very small minority).

So depending on the lab, the sample preparation techniques and the method of analysis, it is possible that one compound could mask another and the ability to isolate and find the drug can be very dependent on the skill and experience of the analyst.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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Dallas_ said:
Brand names for the generic Clenbuterol are: Clenasna, Monores, Novegam, Prontovent, Spiropent, Broncoterol, Bronchodil, Cesbron, Clenbuter, Pharmachim, Contrasmina, Contraspasmina, Oxyflux, Ventolase, Ventapulmin and Clenbumar.

Some countries approve of its use as a bronchodilator for asthma patients.

Produces an increase in skeletal muscle mass and a decrease in body fat.

Has a long half life of approximately 35 hours.

With repeated doses clen will accumulate.

97% of Clen will clear from the body in approximately eight days.

IOC banned Clenbuterol on April 21, 1992.

Clenbuterol is an extremely attractive drug for athletes because of the ability to modify body structure and function.

The ability to promote muscle protein synthesis and reduce muscle protein degradation. <-- Does that mean better recovery?

source http://books.google.com.au/books?id=nPJaTdp47mcC&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=clenbuterol+asmatic&source=bl&ots=HFAFbOhloy&sig=jrsOx43x5eQ_PPSke-qfmTd-FUY&hl=en&ei=kHVsTdaEGYqmcMz-mbQF&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q&f=false

cheers
Thanks, sounds like what I was looking for except that I imagine the dosage would have to be substantial to have any effect on recovery. That would suggest more likely use during a training cycle; one where blood was drawn for later use?
 
Dallas_ said:
...

Has a long half life of approximately 35 hours.

With repeated doses clen will accumulate.

97% of Clen will clear from the body in approximately eight days.
Now we're getting somewhere. Hence its use on the rest day. Does the half-life fall in line with the tested volume?

And doesn't C supposedly have Asthma? And therefore, why doesn't he simply have a TUE (i.e. he may have used it as a PED, perhaps not knowing it didn't or couldn't help)? Just part of the systemic regiment? i.e as a masking agent versus a preferred asthma treatment?

Seems sloppy on his part, other than if Clen isn't a preferred or usual treatment for asthma. Has anyone done a survey on pro cyclists versus the general population with regard to incidence of 'asthma'?
 
Dec 21, 2010
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Contador has severe spring allergies, not sure what is the trigger substance, but for myself living just north of Madrid for the past 12 months, I am suffering the worst allergic reations of my life to the Cypress family - this is the dominant allergen during Jan-March timeframe.

Clenbuterol may help with the asthmatic component of the allergy, not sure if it is a legally prescribed drug in Spain, I do not believe so.

Comparison of athletes Vs non-athletes rates of asthma - I don't have it to hand, but there was a comparative assessment floating around that indicated the gross under-reporting of asthma amongst couch-potatoes (as expected), whereas Elite athletes are slightly higher than the expected norm, given high ventilatory efforts in cold, dry or pollen-infested atmosphere, all which exacerbate the onset of asthma attacks.
The impression I got from the quick scan many years ago was that the true incidence of asthma was slightly higher in elite athletes than general poulation, but the reported incidence was much higher (couch-potatoes not expending effort to discover it).
 
Nov 24, 2010
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Salbutamol & Clen

TubularBills said:
And doesn't C supposedly have Asthma? And therefore, why doesn't he simply have a TUE.
Apparently a percentage of pro riders have a TUE for asthma medication. I have heard 20% mentioned. More knowledgeable forum members could elaborate on percentage!

This thread is not supposed to divert to AC, but there is a reason i will for a moment. I am lead to believe AC has a TUE for asthma and I would presume the medication would be a Salbutamol(albuterol in the US). Salbutamol being the huffer that Petachi was pinged for too many puffs of!

Salbutamol is actually Clenbuterol's shorter acting brother. http://www.steroid.com/Albuterol-Sulfate-new.php

So, leaving aside Clen's weight loss properties and taking into consideration the performance enhancing properties, if at any time AC used Salbutamol and Clenbuterol together, would one assume the boost would be beneficial?

Perhaps python or Merckx could wade into this!

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/food-claims-dubious-ioc-official-20110226-1b9d1.html
 
Jun 10, 2009
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I know put-downs are passé, but this thread is suffering from a notable lack of credibility (yes, even for The Clinic).

C'mon guys, if you want to play armchair pharmacologist or analytic lab technician, please find some decent (evidence based) literature to actually back it up instead of linking to bodybuilding web sites! Isn't there anything you could come up with on pubmed?

Getting at least a basic understanding of pharmacology, biochemistry and analytical techniques wouldn't go astray either. Seriously, clen used as a masking agent to fool a mass spec? When mass spec is sensitive enough to tell a natural substance from synthetically produced version of the identical compound based on isotope ratios (without even going into GC or LC separation based on physicochemical properties before the sample even hits the mass spec)?

Did you know if the wind changes while you're pulling a face you will be stuck that way forever? I read it on Oldwivestales.com so it must be true.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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dsut4392 said:
I know put-downs are passé, but this thread is suffering from a notable lack of credibility (yes, even for The Clinic).

C'mon guys, if you want to play armchair pharmacologist or analytic lab technician, please find some decent (evidence based) literature to actually back it up instead of linking to bodybuilding web sites! Isn't there anything you could come up with on pubmed?

Getting at least a basic understanding of pharmacology, biochemistry and analytical techniques wouldn't go astray either. Seriously, clen used as a masking agent to fool a mass spec? When mass spec is sensitive enough to tell a natural substance from synthetically produced version of the identical compound based on isotope ratios (without even going into GC or LC separation based on physicochemical properties before the sample even hits the mass spec)?
while i agree it's a little laughable that clenbuterol be used as a masking agent for instance, i think people are just asking questions, it's a brainstorming phase. instead of mocking them just weigh in.

of course the most credible info is research based but to figure out how people are ACTUALLY using a substance you must explore the dark corners of the internet to get a complete picture. websites and forums only visited by "regular" steroid users are very valuable if you realise the info within them is to be digested with a grain of salt.
 

flicker

BANNED
Aug 17, 2009
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lean said:
while i agree it's a little laughable that clenbuterol be used as a masking agent for instance, i think people are just asking questions, it's a brainstorming phase. instead of mocking them just way in.

of course the most credible info is research based but to figure out how people are ACTUALLY using a substance you must explore the dark corners of the internet to get a complete picture. websites and forums only visited by "regular" steroid users are very valuable if you realise the info within them is to be digested with a grain of salt.
I am just phishing, but is this how clen might be used?

http://www.drugabuse.gov/ResearchReports/Steroids/anabolicsteroids3.html#why
 
Aug 11, 2009
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lean said:
of course the most credible info is research based but to figure out how people are ACTUALLY using a substance you must explore the dark corners of the internet to get a complete picture. websites and forums only visited by "regular" steroid users are very valuable if you realise the info within them is to be digested with a grain of salt.
I agree, 100%.

There are two relevant questions here: 1) what is clenbuterol and how does it work? and 2) how is clenbuterol being used as a doping product?

The first question should be the exclusive domain of solid sources like pubmed.

The second question (i.e. illicit use) is much more of an open forum. It's no secret that doping practices are full of bad science and non-expert opinions.

When MLB players wanted to learn how to use steroids, they didn't ask the Surgeon General of the United States--they turned to Jose Canseco for tips. Landis claims that LA was the first one to teach him how to use PEDs--not Dr. Ferrari. Riccardo Ricco almost killed himself with a poorly administered, amateur blood transfusion.

This being the case, I think the bs floating around on bodybuilding websites and elsewhere may have a significant influence on how athletes may self-administer doping protocols.
 
May 26, 2010
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i've been Clen doping for a while now, steak once a week, gotta be getting some benefit, but cant see it myself, i never point my finger at people like a gun:rolleyes:
 
Jan 30, 2011
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dsut4392 said:
Seriously, clen used as a masking agent to fool a mass spec? When mass spec is sensitive enough to tell a natural substance from synthetically produced version of the identical compound based on isotope ratios (without even going into GC or LC separation based on physicochemical properties before the sample even hits the mass spec)?
Mass spec is not smart enough to tell anything on its own.

The value of mass spectrometry comes in with the comparison of experimental data against known data (eg. library matching or matching against the same analysis of a known standard).

The ability to mask information in a mass spectrum without chromatography (and even with chromatography for co-eluting substances) is that the MS just counts mass-to-charge ratios of the ions in a given scan.

If 2 components in a mixture are present together, then the MS just sees one large amount of data. It doesn't see one component and then the other. It just faithfully counts all of the ions present and produces a spectrum containing all of the data for that one scan.

For quadrupole MS, the ion fragments produce a fingerprint of a chemical, but if there are co-eluting components from the chromatograph, that fingerprint becomes more difficult to match against a library hit and the match factor agains the library will be lower in a simple search. That's where the value of a chromatograph comes in to help separate individual components; and it's even better with additional software methods to separate components.

For ion-trap techniques, which generally use softer ionisation methods, it is easier to obtain an intact molecule, isolate it and then fragment it to get the data you need for the identification. This requires a more experienced analyst.

These are the two main techniques used in analytical laboratories for MS. TOF-MS is also used widely, but not for the analysis of these small molecules like clen.

My previous background was in illicit drugs and explosives using mass spec on a daily basis. From a sport drug screening process, I have no particular clue whether clen is a suitable masking agent, but from a purely technical perspective it is possible to produce impure mass spectra that make identification more difficult.

My work these days is with a different class of chemicals, but still involving daily use of MS.
 
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