The It's No Picnic PostNL Thread

[Libertine Seguros]

The women's team does share some of its philosophy and has had some bumps in the road, most notably their interesting diversion with Janneke Ensing, who signed to much fanfare after some excellent results with Alé-Cipollini, then split by early May with both her and the team agreeing to part ways by mutual consent. Never truly understood what that was about, maybe now Janneke's retiring we can hear about it, but there was a lot of talk about how the team were very controlling of the training regimen and, as a 30+ rider with several years a pro across two sports, Janneke felt she knew what did and didn't work for her at that point in her career, and that environment did not. Pernille Mathiesen is another case study, her star has very much faded in her time there and there have been persistent if unconfirmed rumours that the team's intentions for her and have played a significant role in that.

I get the feeling that it's an environment that you either thrive in or you don't. Some riders deal well with being molly-coddled and given clear and inflexible instructions to get the best out of them, but for others they really don't need that and that inflexibility is suffocating. A lot of the women's team join very young where perhaps a more disciplined approach to help them compete against the professional péloton is beneficial - Lippert and Labous are 1998 births already into their fifth season with the team, and they only have three riders born before 1995 - or as with Coryn Rivera, North American riders' first team in Europe when they take the plunge. 8 of their 13 riders contracted for 2021 have never ridden pro in any other environment than this team, most of whom have been there for a few years so clearly it works for them, while for Kirchmann and Rivera they are their first full time Euro ride (Kirchmann guested at Forno d'Asolo early in her career but largely remained confined to the North American péloton until joining Liv-Plantur). Others have got out just as quickly as they arrived - including those in the same categories the team thrives on bringing in: Anna Henderson is an example of the former and Ruth Winder of the latter.

But while several riders seem to thrive in that environment and several come out as quickly as they arrive, few seem to take time to badmouth the organisation. Which makes me wonder if, while the team philosophies may have certain similarities, the (wo)man-management skills are where the major divide happens, because there clearly seems to be a lot of bad blood in the departures in the men's team, and it's been going on for a number of years now.

 

[Leinster]

I get the feeling that it's an environment that you either thrive in or you don't. Some riders deal well with being molly-coddled and given clear and inflexible instructions to get the best out of them, but for others they really don't need that and that inflexibility is suffocating.

I dunno, with every new departure it just gets harder and harder to say “well it worked in 2017, and Bardet seems happy, and look at all the names that got their start there…”

They keep losing key riders, and I’ve never seen a cycling team have so many guys walk away mid-contract. Something isn’t right.

 

[Volderke]

What will Vandenabeele do now?

 

[Samamba]

What will Vandenabeele do now?

Hope the team folds.

The kid made 0 progress since he went to DSM.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I dunno, with every new departure it just gets harder and harder to say “well it worked in 2017, and Bardet seems happy, and look at all the names that got their start there…”

They keep losing key riders, and I’ve never seen a cycling team have so many guys walk away mid-contract. Something isn’t right.

Apologies if it's not clear, I was still talking about the women's team at that point. There's some significant stability including among top riders at the team in the women's team - Soek and Mackaij have been there 8 years (Soek is now retiring), Kirchmann 6, Lippert, Labous and Rivera 5 (Coryn is now moving on, but I suspect that's more about Wiebes' success taking away from her opportunities than anything else). There's a stability in the core of the team that just doesn't feel like it's there in the men's team. The final paragraph was my conclusion that there is enough evidence to suggest the women's team shares the philosophy with the men's at least, but that the way it is implemented seems to generate a lot more discord among the men's team which suggests that the man-management is the biggest problem.

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

I agree it‘s strange, so many riders leave DSM before end of contract. Either the athmosphere within the team is bad, or they pay very badly (or both).

From outside, the team looks very innovative and professional, it seems to be a real top team.

Results-wise, 2021 has been a really disappointing year for them...

 

[tobydawq]

I agree it‘s strange, so many riders leave DSM before end of contract. Either the athmosphere within the team is bad, or they pay very badly (or both).

From outside, the team looks very innovative and professional, it seems to be a real top team.

Results-wise, 2021 has been a really disappointing year for them...

The atmosphere within the team is very, very bad, I don't think anyone doubts that anymore.

And what do you mean about it looking to being a top team and innovative and professional? The people at the steering wheel are control freaks of the worst kind, I don't know how that in any way can be interpreted as something good.

 

[Leinster]

I agree it‘s strange, so many riders leave DSM before end of contract. Either the athmosphere within the team is bad, or they pay very badly (or both).

From outside, the team looks very innovative and professional, it seems to be a real top team.

Results-wise, 2021 has been a really disappointing year for them...

It’s clearly both; “You don’t pay me enough to put up with this.”

They have shown glimpses of innovation in the past, their attacking riding at the 2020 Tour was a joy to watch. But no professional environment loses talent the way they do if run by competent managers.

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

And what do you mean about it looking to being a top team and innovative and professional? The people at the steering wheel are control freaks of the worst kind, I don't know how that in any way can be interpreted as something good.

Difficult to say... In fact, they actually had nice victories in the past. Certainly, all teams make sure that most things from within the team stay hidden from the public.

To be honest, I don‘t think on this WT level, there are too big differences between the teams, with regard to monitoring of their riders.

I still assume money could be a factor. Maybe riders earn too less, and are not willing to say this publicly.

Whatever it is - future doesn‘t seem so bright for Spekenbrink and his team. Best riders leave quickly, they are not really successful any more - and, as I saw during TdF 2021, almost no one seems to be interested in the team as far as social media followers are concerned.

Sad story. I will keep cheering for Bardet and DSM in 2022 - since I like the rider and the team (at least their beautiful, elegant jerseys and bikes...).

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

It’s clearly both; “You don’t pay me enough to put up with this.”

They have shown glimpses of innovation in the past, their attacking riding at the 2020 Tour was a joy to watch. But no professional environment loses talent the way they do if run by competent managers.

DSM pays pretty well to my knowledge. If someone asks you to crawl through cow droppings, you wouldn't do it. Is that a matter of not getting paid enough? I'm sure you would do it if someone told you you'd get a million bucks for it, but that's not really what's wrong with the situation.

 

[Red Rick]

That rider will probably be Cees Bol.

It is said that they are just all slowly leading out Cees Bols exit

 

[Billie]

The 2 last years at Sunweb/DSM have also been the worst years of his career.

 

[RedheadDane]

So, what's the status this transfer-season? Gall already broke his contract, while Benoot and Van Wilder want to? Leknessund was rumoured to wanting to break his contract, but it turned out to be just that; rumours. Or he wanted to, but reached an agreement with the team.
Hindley, Storer, Kanter, Roche, and Sütterlin are all just contracts expiring, and getting a better offer elsewhere/just wanting something new, right? Well... Roche realised he's old, and is stopping.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

So, what's the status this transfer-season? Gall already broke his contract, while Benoot and Van Wilder want to? Leknessund was rumoured to wanting to break his contract, but it turned out to be just that; rumours. Or he wanted to, but reached an agreement with the team.
Hindley, Storer, Kanter, Roche, and Sütterlin are all just contracts expiring, and getting a better offer elsewhere/just wanting something new, right? Well... Roche realised he's old, and is stopping.

Leknessund did want to leave. They convinced him to stay through to the most rudimentairy of ways.

 

[RedheadDane]

Leknessund did want to leave. They convinced him to stay through to the most rudimentairy of ways.

Do we know how they convinced him?

And of course, there was also the Kragh Andersen rumours in the beginning of the year.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Do we know how they convinced him?

It is no public knowledge.

 

[RedheadDane]

It is no public knowledge.

So, could be a case of "Listening to what he had to say"?

 

[Ricco']

Given what we know about the team dynamics and the relation of control of staff over the athletes, this team isn't called Team BDSM only because the B already asked to leave.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Ilan Van Wilder en Team DSM vechten conflict voor rechtbank uit

Breaking Het al maanden durende arbeidsconflict tussen Team DSM en Ilan Van Wilder wordt verder uitgevochten voor de rechtbank Overijssel. De ploeg en de Belgische wielrenner leven al sinds deze zomer in een onoplosbare conflictsituatie over het mogelijk beëindigen van de arbeidsovereenkomst...

www.wielerflits.nl

Courtin' time.

 

[GenericBoonenFan]

Read somewhere today that Roche didn't want to stop but they didn't renew his contract.

Anyways, I also read why Vervaeke wanted to leave. Apparently he was paired with a loud snorer during the 2018 Giro. He asked the team multiple times to switch rooms, they denied. The fourth or fifth day he asked the doctor for sleeping tablets because it was awful and he felt terrible and exhausted. They still refused and he abandoned. He taught about stopping.

(I really should remember saving those articles but I was stuck in a boring meeting at work with time to kill.)

 

[42x16ss]

So, what's the status this transfer-season? Gall already broke his contract, while Benoot and Van Wilder want to? Leknessund was rumoured to wanting to break his contract, but it turned out to be just that; rumours. Or he wanted to, but reached an agreement with the team.
Hindley, Storer, Kanter, Roche, and Sütterlin are all just contracts expiring, and getting a better offer elsewhere/just wanting something new, right? Well... Roche realised he's old, and is stopping.

Storer had no interest in renewing after last year's camp incident

 

[Red Rick]

Read somewhere today that Roche didn't want to stop but they didn't renew his contract.

Anyways, I also read why Vervaeke wanted to leave. Apparently he was paired with a loud snorer during the 2018 Giro. He asked the team multiple times to switch rooms, they denied. The fourth or fifth day he asked the doctor for sleeping tablets because it was awful and he felt terrible and exhausted. They still refused and he abandoned. He taught about stopping.

(I really should remember saving those articles but I was stuck in a boring meeting at work with time to kill.)

Here's a theory.

Dumoulin shat himself cause team managment didn't let him go to the toilet in the morning.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Sh!t's gonna hit the fan, countdown has begun. Implosion eminent.

So, the cat's out of the bag. Van Wilder and DSM are going to court. I'm not a lawyer, but i'm seeing some issues here, that maybe DSM overlooked from a tactical pespective. While DSM may think this is as simple as having a signed agreement, i believe going to court opens up a possible shitstorm raining down on them, as the court could waver any signed NDA they may have had with former riders, and allow testimonies under oath that can establish a pattern in how they treat their riders. Former teammates who would hesitate to lash out in the press or media now suddenly might be called to witness and testify under oath. Frankly i don't understand they let it come to this. I know Van Wilder asked his lawyers to suggest settling out of court, but supposedly DSM didn't want to budge on the fee and left him no other option. Now if they "win" they get to keep a disgruntled rider or they can cash in a modest fee corresponding his current wages. Big whoop. But if they lose... what does that tell the outside world about them? All the coocoo stories are true. Good luck finding a rider to commit to their ways in the future. We wouldn't even need to hear or know what has been said in court, to understand they have lost touch with reality. Because otherwise they would never have let it come to this and lose. Not to forget, all that just to stick it to Van Wilder. Genius. They have so little to gain, and so much to lose. In fact, they may want to make that their slogan, it's fitting.

DSM - little to gain, much to lose.

I also wonder if the court will inquire about them letting all other riders leave, except Van Wilder, and why exactly that is.

 

[RedheadDane]

Storer had no interest in renewing after last year's camp incident

Of course not. My point was that some people around here seem to think that whenever a rider leaves it must always be because he's in conflict with the team, and that management can't possibly do anything right, refusing to even have an honest discussion with riders. In Storer's case, it could have been something as simple as telling management that he thought their reaction to the shampoo story was too harsh, and that they shouldn't bother trying to get him to sign an extention, but he would of course stay for the rest of his contract. Of course, he probably also had the disadvantage of - at that time - not being a big name, likely making other teams less willing to invest a bunch of money to buy him out of his contract. Ironically, though, he then went on to become the team's most succesfull rider this year, but of course at that time he'd already signed with FDJ.

But I suppose a better example of a rider leaving without any sort of conflict would be Sütterlin, who even went on Instagram and said that he'd quite enjoyed his time with the team. And of course Danish site Feltet.dk had to go and - initally - make the most click-baity headline possible:

Tour-exit efter styrt: Nu forlader han World... | Feltet.dk

Originally it was "Tour Exit after Drama: Now He's Leaving WorldTour Team", completely ignoring the fact that the drama was Omi Opi lady...

And of course, let's not forget the fake news story about Kragh being in conflict with the team back during/after P-N.

Anyways, I also read why Vervaeke wanted to leave. Apparently he was paired with a loud snorer during the 2018 Giro. He asked the team multiple times to switch rooms, they denied. The fourth or fifth day he asked the doctor for sleeping tablets because it was awful and he felt terrible and exhausted. They still refused and he abandoned. He taught about stopping.

That's just a terrible situation all-around. After all; someone had to be roomates with "Snoring Guy", and if the poor guy already had a bit of a reputation, it's possible the others weren't exactly lining up to switch rooms with Vervaeke. And of course, if the situation had happened just a year earlier, the solution would have been simple:
"[Name], you hereby get the single-room!"

Is it terrible of me, that I'm kinda curious abot the identity of "Snoring Guy"?

 

[AlfaLum]

So, the cat's out of the bag. Van Wilder and DSM are going to court. I'm not a lawyer, but i'm seeing some issues here, that maybe DSM overlooked from a tactical pespective. While DSM may think this is as simple as having a signed agreement, i believe going to court opens up a possible shitstorm raining down on them, as the court could waver any signed NDA they may have had with former riders, and allow testimonies under oath that can establish a pattern in how they treat their riders. Former teammates who would hesitate to lash out in the press or media now suddenly might be called to witness and testify under oath. Frankly i don't understand they let it come to this. I know Van Wilder asked his lawyers to suggest settling out of court, but supposedly DSM didn't want to budge on the fee and left him no other option. Now if they "win" they get to keep a disgruntled rider or they can cash in a modest fee corresponding his current wages. Big whoop. But if they lose... what does that tell the outside world about them? All the coocoo stories are true. Good luck finding a rider to commit to their ways in the future. We wouldn't even need to hear or know what has been said in court, to understand they have lost touch with reality. Because otherwise they would never have let it come to this and lose. Not to forget, all that just to stick it to Van Wilder. Genius. They have so little to gain, and so much to lose. In fact, they may want to make that their slogan, it's fitting.

DSM - little to gain, much to lose.

I also wonder if the court will inquire about them letting all other riders leave, except Van Wilder, and why exactly that is.

Why would they let a lot of former riders come forward with their story? It's a Dutch court, it doesn't seem very likely to me that riders such as Hirschi , or any other rider for that matter, will actually be called upon to testify.

And as to so much to lose, seems to me that a lot of the damage is already done anyway.