Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Graham_S]

An increase like that is firmly in Lance territory. As others have said, Armstrong's Hgb increased about 0.6 of a point during the 2009 Tour, while Wiggins' increased by 0.8 of a point in the same race.

Is there any data accross the peloton for levels on a rest day following a bunch'o'mountain stages vs a rest day a week later after an easier week?

 

[Graham_S]

There's an important detail here. We know the UCI has suppressed positives before. And we also know there are huge holes in testing. So when Armstrong repeated the phrase "Never tested positive", "most tested athlete" as proof of his not doping, it's proof of nothing. No positives doesn't mean not doping.

But the UCI must now know that it'll come out eventually. You have to hope there has come a point where they have learnt they can't get away with that anymore.

I am running with the assumption that they have finally wised up. I could of course be wrong.

 

[Graham_S]

Who are/WERE they?
What were their credentials prior to Team Sky?
How can BC possibly enforce the UCI's rules when they are responsible for Sky's success?

One of the forgotten Brailsford messages was his claims of maximum transparency. Any news on that transparency policy/reporting Dave?

I thought the road team was built from track team? Obviously quite different sports but the core values and attention to detail are the same.

Transparancy is tricky... must be frustrating to have any data you release intrepeted by people who aren't qualified to do it.

 

[Graham_S]

JTL doped at Endura?



Sky signed JTLocke a good few months before the news about his bio-passport problems broke out

ps. welcome Graham_S, your post put a spark in this thread

Thank you! Impossible to keep up....

To me, pointing the finger at Sky for the JTL thing seems pretty desperate. People seem to argue that it is impossible to catch Sky doping one second and then say Sky should have caught JTL doping. I'm not sure they can have it both ways!

 

[veganrob]

I thought the road team was built from track team? Obviously quite different sports but the core values and attention to detail are the same.

Transparancy is tricky... must be frustrating to have any data you release intrepeted by people who aren't qualified to do it.

Who are you saying are not qualified to interpret Sky riders data?

 

[Graham_S]

Who are you saying are not qualified to interpret Sky riders data?

Anyone posting on an internet forum.

I am confident this assumption will hold up 99.99% of the time.

Ideally there would be a neutral expert with access to all their data, worked on a limited basis with Froome last year, maybe that can be expanded on.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Is there any data accross the peloton for levels on a rest day following a bunch'o'mountain stages vs a rest day a week later after an easier week?

Obviously yes, but not public.

It may not even have been looked at in those specific terms. That would be an interesting point for JV to comment on, but he doesn't come round here anymore.

 

[Graham_S]

Obviously yes, but not public.

It may not even have been looked at in those specific terms. That would be an interesting point for JV to comment on, but he doesn't come round here anymore.

I would be very uncomfortable drawing conclusions on a single riders numbers without being able to compare it.

I suppose it's all down to how much you can trust the UCI.... oh dear.

 

[ebandit]

expert

Who are you saying are not qualified to interpret Sky riders data?

when riders are sanctioned is this not from a majority concensus from a panel of experts........even here there is differing opinion ie not always black/white

recently 09 figures for brad in 09 tour were mentioned but i saw no source..
can these figures be verified?

and if they were suspicious how come they were not given similar attention to lance's 09 data?

Mark L

 

[Benotti69]

I thought the road team was built from track team? Obviously quite different sports but the core values and attention to detail are the same.

Transparancy is tricky... must be frustrating to have any data you release intrepeted by people who aren't qualified to do it.

Transparency is trickier when the experts call your data doping....

 

[Catwhoorg]

Bio passport in a nutshell.

Flagged or random go to an individual expert, coded to be anonymous
He/she looks at it and says OK, or needs further study.

If needs further study, goes to a panel of 3. All of whom needs at agree it deserves further attention.

At that point, they get details of riders race program, maybe any injuries etc, to see if that explains it. If they agree to go further, the rider is written to asking if they can explain whats going on.

After seeing the explanation offered (if any), the three again have to unanimously agree there is a case to answer, at this point a doping case is opened by the relevant body.


A 2:1 majority means no case

(JTL's was technically opened by British cycling on behalf of the UCI, but UKAD were the ones doing it all, as they manage all anti-doping activities for BC)


It pretty much has to be very blatant to get a case opened.

Brad and JV released a subset of his blood profile after the 2009 tour.
(4 points in 2008, 4 points around the Giro and 4 points from the tour time frame)

There was a fair amount of discussion at the time, and again after JV released a similar snapshot for Ryder after his Giro win.

 

[Graham_S]

Transparency is trickier when the experts call your data doping....

For example?

 

[veganrob]

When Sky was created, they touted their ZTP and transparency of data. They have shown no transparency at all unless you want to consider pineapple juice in the water bottle as such. Or washing their hands. DB has refused to release any relevant, I repeat relevant power data on the riders claiming no one but their own coaches can understand it. Hogwash. When they are called out on their BS they just give more lame excuses and treat anyone questioning their methods as idiots.

 

[JimmyFingers]

When Sky was created, they touted their ZTP and transparency of data. They have shown no transparency at all unless you want to consider pineapple juice in the water bottle as such. Or washing their hands. DB has refused to release any relevant, I repeat relevant power data on the riders claiming no one but their own coaches can understand it. Hogwash. When they are called out on their BS they just give more lame excuses and treat anyone questioning their methods as idiots.

Nice story. I would really like to see some examples of this.

 

[veganrob]

Nice story. I would really like to see some examples of this.

Maybe you should just take off the blinders. Or maybe you like being spoonfed by Brailsford

 

[EnacheV]

I'm sorry guys but Sky is old news, seems Movistar discovered a new mojo that makes donkeys winning prologues please start moving in the appropiate thread.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I don't know if someone who has just ridden a 3 week gt full on 110%, 2 of which were in a yellow jersey never moving from the front of the peloton, should be in any better state to win a time trial 10 days later than a rider who hurt his wrist in the gt but then spent the next weeks preparing for that 50k effort.

Hitch, you are one of the posters here, so why the need for hyperbole?

What you write above is essentially the facts - the point surely is the how or why? So, what is meant to be the difference?

There's a reason why time trialists going for gold at the world championships pull out of the vuelta before the finish. And they aren't even wasting half the energy as Wiggins was in the Tour since a the vuelta is not the tour and b they are not gc contenders. Even still they understand its not good prep to finish a race like that so Wiggins in 2012 could not have been that we'll prepared for the tt to begin with (not even taking into account the underweight factor which others have mentioned)

And on top of that a few days before the tt Wiggins was part of a 4 man 7hour 250k ttt and was lauded as rider of the day. Martin rode a few k as training and then retired.

There is - a very good reason. It is not the ideal preparation for the TT to ride a full GT just before.
Neither Martin or Wiggins had that option with the Tour. That is why I said it was more of a slog between them then a battle of the best preparation.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I read Brad's contract is up at the end of this year. Who's thinking he'll suddenly refind his motivation to train and race and descend in the wet again?

I know I am.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Thank you! Impossible to keep up....

To me, pointing the finger at Sky for the JTL thing seems pretty desperate. People seem to argue that it is impossible to catch Sky doping one second and then say Sky should have caught JTL doping. I'm not sure they can have it both ways!

That would be a fair point - if it was the same person.
I have never argued that "it is impossible to catch Sky doping" - so now that I have taken the straw from your post, would you care to discuss why Sky (who are ZTP) would end up hiring a guy who goes positive?

Is that a standard you would accept from such a self righteous team?

 

[42x16ss]

I read Brad's contract is up at the end of this year. Who's thinking he'll suddenly refind his motivation to train and race and descend in the wet again?

I know I am.

Only if it's at the races he wants to do

 

[BYOP88]

Might make the Tour de Farce interesting. Hoping for a repeat of the 2004 Giro, 1986 or 2009 Tours.

 

[42x16ss]

I'll settle for 2011 Vuelta

 

[DirtyWorks]

Might make the Tour de Farce interesting.

Last time I looked, lots of grand tour riders were doing Giro/Vuelta. I don't know if that's changed. That seems like a sensible strategy with Sky's ability to turn the race into a Cafe run with a pro squad stopping by.

 

[Graham_S]

so now that I have taken the straw from your post, would you care to discuss why Sky (who are ZTP) would end up hiring a guy who goes positive?

Is that a standard you would accept from such a self righteous team?

I think that they ended up hiring a guy who went positive because... [drumroll]... they didn't know he was on PED's.

Yes, yes I do accept that it was an easy mistake to make.

Apart from the fact he won some stuff, was there anything to suggest he was dodgey before the bio passaport had time to kick in?

 

[42x16ss]

Massive improvement out of nowhere?

Where have we heard that before....