Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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proffate said:
I can't believe Stannard is 26. He looks like a 40 yr old dockworker. But I think his win was a result of his body fat not dope. He was hardly phased by the weather.
The worse the weather, the better Stannard performs. All his best results and performances have come when the going gets stupidly tough. Kuurne 2010 anyone? He doesn't have all that many attacking weapons, but what he does have is the ability to bear suffering better than most, so when the conditions are at their worst, he's almost invariably among the best on the day.
 
Apr 3, 2011
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proffate said:
I can't believe Stannard is 26. He looks like a 40 yr old dockworker.
Spot on!

If you can't follow the winning formula of the bright new clean cycling era and be real 40+ grandpa, you have to at least look like one.

It's only marginal.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Thanks. I understood this concept ages ago when another team manager bragged about "testing" an U23 rider after the rider won a big one day race. Said U23 rider had rumours floating everywhere, the manager admitted, but the manager had a trick up their sleeve. They claimed the rider was clean coz they couldn't detect anything. It was incredibly painful that noone responded. It looked like everyone just accepted what he was saying.
 
Aug 24, 2011
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Just out of curiosity, why is the term 'marginal gains' so despised on here? From what I've read the concept does not sound that outlandish and while I don't think that it explains riders like Chris Froome becoming great riders overnight (because there's already a fairly plausible explanation for that really) it kind of makes sense to me to approach cycling with this mentality of making gains where others may have overlooked.

I'm also not saying I completely subscribe to the concept of marginal gains but since it is to do with Sky I just want to hear what makes it so absurd.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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SaxonUK said:
Just out of curiosity, why is the term 'marginal gains' so despised on here? From what I've read the concept does not sound that outlandish and while I don't think that it explains riders like Chris Froome becoming great riders overnight (because there's already a fairly plausible explanation for that really) it kind of makes sense to me to approach cycling with this mentality of making gains where others may have overlooked.

I'm also not saying I completely subscribe to the concept of marginal gains but since it is to do with Sky I just want to hear what makes it so absurd.
Wasn't it you asking why there were 2400 pages in this thread? This question has been answered and debunked numerous times.
 
Aug 24, 2011
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Dear Wiggo said:
Wasn't it you asking why there were 2400 pages in this thread? This question has been answered and debunked numerous times.
And you explained in your reply to me why that was, because of people continuing to ask questions, which is what I am doing, asking questions. Also "debunked" seems a little strong, 20 pages of posts where people say "marginal gains" and in a not so subtle way hint at doping isn't debunking
 
gain

SaxonUK said:
Just out of curiosity, why is the term 'marginal gains' so despised on here?
marginal gains are seen as just making marginal differences.................even many such gains don't appear to make such a big improvement in performance

nothing that rival teams have not been doing for years

what are the real reasons for team sky adavantage.............even if legal would they let all know and lose their winning position?

their marginal gains are probably just spin

and of course the thread is so long because many members prefer to mock rather than answer questions

Mark L
 
Sep 29, 2012
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SaxonUK said:
And you explained in your reply to me why that was, because of people continuing to ask questions, which is what I am doing, asking questions. Also "debunked" seems a little strong, 20 pages of posts where people say "marginal gains" and in a not so subtle way hint at doping isn't debunking
There are posts where the marginal gains are listed, and then debunked. ie do a search in this thread, all the answers are still there.

Do you know what the marginal gains are?
 
May 26, 2010
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ebandit said:
and of course the thread is so long because many members prefer to mock rather than answer questions
especially when the poster already asked similar many posts ago in other guises
 
Jul 21, 2012
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ebandit said:
marginal gains are seen as just making marginal differences.................even many such gains don't appear to make such a big improvement in performance

nothing that rival teams have not been doing for years

what are the real reasons for team sky adavantage.............even if legal would they let all know and lose their winning position?

their marginal gains are probably just spin

and of course the thread is so long because many members prefer to mock rather than answer questions

Mark L
good post, Mark L. Couldnt have said it better myself.
 
SaxonUK said:
Just out of curiosity, why is the term 'marginal gains' so despised on here? From what I've read the concept does not sound that outlandish and while I don't think that it explains riders like Chris Froome becoming great riders overnight (because there's already a fairly plausible explanation for that really) it kind of makes sense to me to approach cycling with this mentality of making gains where others may have overlooked.

I'm also not saying I completely subscribe to the concept of marginal gains but since it is to do with Sky I just want to hear what makes it so absurd.
Its not the first time teams have claimed to use science this way. Armstrong in the videotapes where he is interviewed in 2005 says almost the exact same things about how Ferrari as Sky do about Kerrison (how he has figured out all these training techniques that give small legal boosts).

One of the "marginal gains" - higher cadence, is the exact same one Armstrong was widely ridiculed for claiming his for a decade.

Others are patently ridiculous - better pillows, more washing of hands. Thats less effective than Rasmussen measuring the weight of his waterbottles to try and carry a few pictogramms less on the mountains.

Also Froome has in interviews shown he blatantly ignores some of the "marginal gains". He has been known to totally ignore the post race warmdown and just head straight to the bus, where Sky propaganda claims post race warm downs as a major advantage their riders have over everyone else.

And most notably he admitted that he didn't even visit a wind tunnel in his first 3 and a half seasons at SKy. Yet he still podiumed 3 gt tts and the olympics in that time.

That alone totally destroys the theory of marginal gains for me. If a team can't even be bothered to use the simplest most efficient legal performance enhancement method out there, I can't believe thats a team that is going to find never before heard of techniques of massive performance boost. Wind tunnels far outweigh any tiny potential performance enhancement gain from
any of the methods sky claim to use anyway.
 
May 26, 2009
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The Hitch said:
Its not the first time teams have claimed to use science this way. Armstrong in the videotapes where he is interviewed in 2005 says almost the exact same things about how Ferrari as Sky do about Kerrison (how he has figured out all these training techniques that give small legal boosts).

One of the "marginal gains" - higher cadence, is the exact same one Armstrong was widely ridiculed for claiming his for a decade.

Others are patently ridiculous - better pillows, more washing of hands. Thats less effective than Rasmussen measuring the weight of his waterbottles to try and carry a few pictogramms less on the mountains.

Also Froome has in interviews shown he blatantly ignores some of the "marginal gains". He has been known to totally ignore the post race warmdown and just head straight to the bus, where Sky propaganda claims post race warm downs as a major advantage their riders have over everyone else.

And most notably he admitted that he didn't even visit a wind tunnel in his first 3 and a half seasons at SKy. Yet he still podiumed 3 gt tts and the olympics in that time.

That alone totally destroys the theory of marginal gains for me. If a team can't even be bothered to use the simplest most efficient legal performance enhancement method out there, I can't believe thats a team that is going to find never before heard of techniques of massive performance boost. Wind tunnels far outweigh any tiny potential performance enhancement gain from
any of the methods sky claim to use anyway.
Riding a bike in Africa is like being in a wind tunnel. That's why Froome sucked in Europe the first 3 and a half years he was there, because he was thrown by the lack of wind etc.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Since we're covering old ground here, I can't resist posting something I mentioned earlier in this thread—about 500 pages ago.

"Marginal Gains" ain't got nothin' on Jeff Spencer, previously of Lance/USPS fame. Nothin'. The original link is now dead, and his own website is currently undergoing reconstruction, but the internet is vast. As of June 2013, his website still had him listed as an "Eight-time Tour de France winning doctor." :confused:

Let's talk about marginal gains, shall we?

Granville57 said:
In this regard, Spencer's work in preparing for the Tour is never done. When he isn't attending to riders at a Postal training camp in the U.S. or Europe, he's busy searching for new technologies - "modalities" as he calls them- that can be applied to the needs of the team. When he ships out for the Tour, Spencer will be taking along almost $60,000 of equipment that will be used to treat the various wounds, strains and other physical issues that may present themselves.

The current lineup of gear that Spencer is willing to talk about runs from the exotic to the prosaic. An Erchonia cold laser is used to "treat everything," says Spencer, from wounds to nerve function. Another device called an "H-Wave" helps treat muscular pain. Then there's a silver-colored fabric that Spencer shows, but refuses to disclose any details about, except that it's just another tool in his arsenal to help Postal riders recover from injuries.


Or this:
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2009/03/episode-35-full-transcript/
Ben: Now I get the feeling that you do a little bit more than massage therapy in achieving recovery and enhancing the performance of for example the US Postal Service or Discovery Channel professional cycling teams. Lance Armstrong, he actually referenced you in Every Second Counts. He said “Jeff is part doctor, part guru, part medicine man. We believe Jeff could fix any and all of our problems. Well he fixed us physically, he also fixed us mentally. If you judge the most important man on the Postal team by the traffic in and out of his door, then it was Jeff. Without him, we knew we’d never make it to Paris.” Jeff, what kind of things were you doing with the cycling team to achieve that kind of respect from guys like Lance Armstrong?

Dr Jeff Spencer: I use cold laser which is my most important tool...

Ben: Now what was the scientific basis behind that first technique that you brought up? The cold laser?

Dr. Jeff Spencer: Well the cold laser is absolutely magic. The way that I used it, and the cold laser can be used in a variety of different ways. We actually use white wavelengths and white light frequencies to produce biologic effects that are consistent with controlling inflammation, turning on inhibited muscles, increasing ATP or energy in the body to be able to improve the immune system, to help tissue repair. And the advantage of using lasers and these other electronic modalities, using frequencies and wavelengths and electrons is that it deals with high speed biology where you can get things done in the fraction of the time it takes some other biochemistry or nutritional procedures. So it gives us great flexibility and great predictability in accelerating dramatically recovery from the days of performance, etc.

Ben: Do you do anything special from a nutritional perspective in terms of supplementation protocols? Things of that nature?

Dr. Jeff Spencer: Yeah. I think the most important thing is after you’re done training to take some protolytic enzymes, and what protolytic enzymes are, they’re basically a protein that breaks down into your tissue and helps mop up metabolic debris from training and I’m a big fan of taking three or four of those to be able to start the recovery process by breaking down the debris in the body that’s got built up from the efforts from training. The other things that I think are important are Co-Q-10 because they help produce energy in the body that the body needs to relax and recover.

Ben: What type of things would you do with a competitive athlete like a rider on the Tour de France or with a guy like Lance Armstrong to enhance let’s say sleep?

Dr. Jeff Spencer: So we use a revolutionary technology called earthing. As I mentioned, they can look that up if they like.

Ben: Now I don’t think that this concept of earthing that you brought up is too mainstream, and for people listening in, what’s the overall description of something like that?


Dr. Jeff Spencer: Earthing is a revolutionary new technology. What it does is it uses the earth’s free electrons and the earth’s natural frequencies to normalize body physiology so that the body can recover as nature has intended it. And it’s pretty new technology. All you do is lay down on the bed pad or the sheet and go to sleep and do what you normally do. It doesn’t take any extra time and when the electrons transfer to the body along with the natural frequencies, the body has a tendency to relax. People have a greater sense of wellbeing. Their body seems to be more in synchronization with the light and dark natural daily cycles. People get up more refreshed, have more clarity of thought and so from my clinical perspective, that’s an important element that’s necessary to create optimal recovery.
Your move, Tim Kerrison. :cool:



Have at it, Digger! :D
 
Aug 24, 2011
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The Hitch said:
Also Froome has in interviews shown he blatantly ignores some of the "marginal gains". He has been known to totally ignore the post race warmdown and just head straight to the bus, where Sky propaganda claims post race warm downs as a major advantage their riders have over everyone else.

And most notably he admitted that he didn't even visit a wind tunnel in his first 3 and a half seasons at SKy. Yet he still podiumed 3 gt tts and the olympics in that time.
I didn't know that about the wind tunnels, that does seem strange considering his podium finishes. The only reason I asked really was because of the documentary Road to Glory about Skys 2012 season and the segment they had on the marginal gains. Interesting about that documentary is that Chris Froome is largely absent from the first half of the five part series, strange considering how important he is to Sky now and during the Tour that the documentary is about.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Since we're covering old ground here, I can't resist posting something I mentioned earlier in this thread—about 500 pages ago.

"Marginal Gains" ain't got nothin' on Jeff Spencer, previously of Lance/USPS fame. Nothin'. The original link is now dead, and his own website is currently undergoing reconstruction, but the internet is vast. As of June 2013, his website still had him listed as an "Eight-time Tour de France winning doctor." :confused:

Let's talk about marginal gains, shall we?

Granville57 said:
In this regard, Spencer's work in preparing for the Tour is never done. When he isn't attending to riders at a Postal training camp in the U.S. or Europe, he's busy searching for new technologies - "modalities" as he calls them- that can be applied to the needs of the team. When he ships out for the Tour, Spencer will be taking along almost $60,000 of equipment that will be used to treat the various wounds, strains and other physical issues that may present themselves.

The current lineup of gear that Spencer is willing to talk about runs from the exotic to the prosaic. An Erchonia cold laser is used to "treat everything," says Spencer, from wounds to nerve function. Another device called an "H-Wave" helps treat muscular pain. Then there's a silver-colored fabric that Spencer shows, but refuses to disclose any details about, except that it's just another tool in his arsenal to help Postal riders recover from injuries.


Or this:
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2009/03/episode-35-full-transcript/
Ben: Now I get the feeling that you do a little bit more than massage therapy in achieving recovery and enhancing the performance of for example the US Postal Service or Discovery Channel professional cycling teams. Lance Armstrong, he actually referenced you in Every Second Counts. He said “Jeff is part doctor, part guru, part medicine man. We believe Jeff could fix any and all of our problems. Well he fixed us physically, he also fixed us mentally. If you judge the most important man on the Postal team by the traffic in and out of his door, then it was Jeff. Without him, we knew we’d never make it to Paris.” Jeff, what kind of things were you doing with the cycling team to achieve that kind of respect from guys like Lance Armstrong?

Dr Jeff Spencer: I use cold laser which is my most important tool...

Ben: Now what was the scientific basis behind that first technique that you brought up? The cold laser?

Dr. Jeff Spencer: Well the cold laser is absolutely magic. The way that I used it, and the cold laser can be used in a variety of different ways. We actually use white wavelengths and white light frequencies to produce biologic effects that are consistent with controlling inflammation, turning on inhibited muscles, increasing ATP or energy in the body to be able to improve the immune system, to help tissue repair. And the advantage of using lasers and these other electronic modalities, using frequencies and wavelengths and electrons is that it deals with high speed biology where you can get things done in the fraction of the time it takes some other biochemistry or nutritional procedures. So it gives us great flexibility and great predictability in accelerating dramatically recovery from the days of performance, etc.

Ben: Do you do anything special from a nutritional perspective in terms of supplementation protocols? Things of that nature?

Dr. Jeff Spencer: Yeah. I think the most important thing is after you’re done training to take some protolytic enzymes, and what protolytic enzymes are, they’re basically a protein that breaks down into your tissue and helps mop up metabolic debris from training and I’m a big fan of taking three or four of those to be able to start the recovery process by breaking down the debris in the body that’s got built up from the efforts from training. The other things that I think are important are Co-Q-10 because they help produce energy in the body that the body needs to relax and recover.

Ben: What type of things would you do with a competitive athlete like a rider on the Tour de France or with a guy like Lance Armstrong to enhance let’s say sleep?

Dr. Jeff Spencer: So we use a revolutionary technology called earthing. As I mentioned, they can look that up if they like.

Ben: Now I don’t think that this concept of earthing that you brought up is too mainstream, and for people listening in, what’s the overall description of something like that?


Dr. Jeff Spencer: Earthing is a revolutionary new technology. What it does is it uses the earth’s free electrons and the earth’s natural frequencies to normalize body physiology so that the body can recover as nature has intended it. And it’s pretty new technology. All you do is lay down on the bed pad or the sheet and go to sleep and do what you normally do. It doesn’t take any extra time and when the electrons transfer to the body along with the natural frequencies, the body has a tendency to relax. People have a greater sense of wellbeing. Their body seems to be more in synchronization with the light and dark natural daily cycles. People get up more refreshed, have more clarity of thought and so from my clinical perspective, that’s an important element that’s necessary to create optimal recovery.
Your move, Tim Kerrison. :cool:



Have at it, Digger! :D
 
May 26, 2010
28,144
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0
Granville57 said:
Since we're covering old ground here, I can't resist posting something I mentioned earlier in this thread—about 500 pages ago.

"Marginal Gains" ain't got nothin' on Jeff Spencer, previously of Lance/USPS fame. Nothin'. The original link is now dead, and his own website is currently undergoing reconstruction, but the internet is vast. As of June 2013, his website still had him listed as an "Eight-time Tour de France winning doctor." :confused:

Let's talk about marginal gains, shall we?



In this regard, Spencer's work in preparing for the Tour is never done. When he isn't attending to riders at a Postal training camp in the U.S. or Europe, he's busy searching for new technologies - "modalities" as he calls them- that can be applied to the needs of the team. When he ships out for the Tour, Spencer will be taking along almost $60,000 of equipment that will be used to treat the various wounds, strains and other physical issues that may present themselves.

The current lineup of gear that Spencer is willing to talk about runs from the exotic to the prosaic. An Erchonia cold laser is used to "treat everything," says Spencer, from wounds to nerve function. Another device called an "H-Wave" helps treat muscular pain. Then there's a silver-colored fabric that Spencer shows, but refuses to disclose any details about, except that it's just another tool in his arsenal to help Postal riders recover from injuries.


Or this:
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2009/03/episode-35-full-transcript/


Your move, Tim Kerrison. :cool:



Have at it, Digger! :D
Some should enlighten David Walsh with the above.
 
Netserk said:
...and people wonder why this thread is so long...
Is there any chance you can post that link to the post history within the thread that you posted before Netserk? I couldn't work out how to find it on the forum when I looked before, and I'm interested to quantify just how many times you've all been 'forced' to reply to the same old questions by Skybots.
 
RownhamHill said:
Is there any chance you can post that link to the post history within the thread that you posted before Netserk? I couldn't work out how to find it on the forum when I looked before, and I'm interested to quantify just how many times you've all been 'forced' to reply to the same old questions by Skybots.
What are you talking about? :confused:
 
Granville57 said:
Since we're covering old ground here, I can't resist posting something I mentioned earlier in this thread—about 500 pages ago.

"Marginal Gains" ain't got nothin' on Jeff Spencer, previously of Lance/USPS fame. Nothin'. The original link is now dead, and his own website is currently undergoing reconstruction, but the internet is vast. As of June 2013, his website still had him listed as an "Eight-time Tour de France winning doctor." :confused:

Let's talk about marginal gains, shall we?



In this regard, Spencer's work in preparing for the Tour is never done. When he isn't attending to riders at a Postal training camp in the U.S. or Europe, he's busy searching for new technologies - "modalities" as he calls them- that can be applied to the needs of the team. When he ships out for the Tour, Spencer will be taking along almost $60,000 of equipment that will be used to treat the various wounds, strains and other physical issues that may present themselves.

The current lineup of gear that Spencer is willing to talk about runs from the exotic to the prosaic. An Erchonia cold laser is used to "treat everything," says Spencer, from wounds to nerve function. Another device called an "H-Wave" helps treat muscular pain. Then there's a silver-colored fabric that Spencer shows, but refuses to disclose any details about, except that it's just another tool in his arsenal to help Postal riders recover from injuries.


Or this:
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2009/03/episode-35-full-transcript/


Your move, Tim Kerrison. :cool:



Have at it, Digger! :D
This is what we call "the head shot".
 
Netserk said:
What are you talking about? :confused:
Sorry wasn't very clear, was thinking out loud!

A while back you posted a link to a screen that basically had a list of all the different people who had posted in this thread, and it also had the number of posts each poster had made. From memory I think the Hog was well established as a solo break-away with about 1,000+ posts, but there were a number of posters in hot pursuit.

So anyway, I thought it would be interesting to take another look at that list but I couldn't work out how to get it up, so since I think you posted it before I thought you might know how to do it!
 
RownhamHill said:
Sorry wasn't very clear, was thinking out loud!

A while back you posted a link to a screen that basically had a list of all the different people who had posted in this thread, and it also had the number of posts each poster had made. From memory I think the Hog was well established as a solo break-away with about 1,000+ posts, but there were a number of posters in hot pursuit.

So anyway, I thought it would be interesting to take another look at that list but I couldn't work out how to get it up, so since I think you posted it before I thought you might know how to do it!
In the list of threads click on the number of posts of the particular thread you're interested in.
 
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