Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Catwhoorg said:
JTL is still up in the air though that came via the UCI
If the UCI behaved consistently, elite riders could reasonably expect JTL would be sanctioned as swiftly as FuYu Li, or less swiftly like the pursuit of a sanction against Bauge, or SOMETHING like those examples. There would be less doping because riders and teams would know to expect some kind of sanction.

Instead, we get what we have. Never tested positive and EPO-like power for months at a time from the skinniest riders in cycling history.
 

martinvickers

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lllludo said:
Aubier said he never saw Boardman inject himself anything so he believes Boardman was clean. Aubier rode for GAN until 95 and was not a rider of the A-team. He never rode the Tour and was not often in the same races as Boardman.
Lemond who rode with GAN until 94 and rarely in 93 and 94.
Papp heard a rumour but it shall be dismissed...
I agree JV is an expert liar but when it comes to expose former dopers he's often reliable.
If only UKAD could have busted someone, anyone, it would be possible to convince some british fans that not all british riders are clean
1. You've been here long enough to know i'm not British. Try again.

2. UKAD's been on the go since Nov 2009. I think holding them responsible for not catching Boardman's a bit rich. But for the record, they DID bust someone, anyone - Marcel Six for a failure to comply.

3. It's funny when JV is only 'an expert liar' when it suits, and yet his 'hints' are taken as gospel. You get whiplash accepting that!
 

martinvickers

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lllludo said:
One of his fellow competitor in Barcelona who later rode in the same team.

In "In search for Millar" Moore and Millar give another version of the story. Obree didn't show up for the 1st and 2nd Le Groupement team meetings then was sacked. Maybe Valcke had already advised him to dope for the Tour de France 6 months later. Only Obree knows that...
You're stretching here. There's no evidence whatsoever that Obree doped - and more to the point, plenty of evidence to show his anti-doping views, and that when the time came, he walked the walk. He still spilled the beans. He still effectively got black balled.
 
martinvickers said:
2. UKAD's been on the go since Nov 2009. I think holding them responsible for not catching Boardman's a bit rich. But for the record, they DID bust someone, anyone - Marcel Six for a failure to comply.
I forgot Marcel. So thats two , someone anyone's busted by UKAD. Dan for a positive test, and Marcel for refusing to give a sample.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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Digger said:
This is a wind up post right? Epo makes no difference in Prologues?
And riders weren't juiced up completely for dauphine races?
some years ago hematocrites were posted of gewiss team for instance. they started season 39% and only during the tour did they skyrocket to 65% no riders didn't juice up 10 months of the year 60%+ simply because there were doctors on board. the risks would've been to high. they were already very high.
 

martinvickers

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roundabout said:
I still don't see how Boardman was a niche racer. Maybe the post 1997 one, but pre 1998 he achieved impressive 1 week race results. And not purely on TT strength
He occasionally was an excellent 1 week racer, I agree, especially in 94-95, when he first hit the road big time. But he was, without question, a TT specialist. Look at his palmares, littered with Chronos de Nations, world time trial medals, IPursuits and prologues. It's what he did, and no harm in it. Frankly, a lot of Brit riders are, for historical reasons (the banning of road racing for starters). By comparison, the Irish (Roche aside) are racers.

According to Keen, he had a VO-Max around 90, I think others have suggested similar. and we know from the hour he could put down huge watts in both IP and the hour. He actually had some top quality national jr results on the road too. Yet he never came within an elephants fart of figuring in a GT, pure grupetto in that sense - And that was from the very start of his pro road career, not after a few years.

Hell, this is what Boardman himself said.

""I never considered myself particularly gifted, but I managed to stretch and mould the ability that I have, and found a niche for myself.""
 
I feel there is a slight contradiction between having a VO2 max of around 90 and not considering himself to be particularly gifted.

Unless of course it's a thinly veiled comment about the road race scene at the time, but it doesn't seem like that to me.
 
May 26, 2010
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martinvickers said:
Hell, this is what Boardman himself said.

""I never considered myself particularly gifted, but I managed to stretch and mould the ability that I have, and found a niche for myself.""
Never tested positive............:rolleyes:
 
kingjr said:
You're doing the same thing right now.
Anyway, let's assume for a moment that's true, what would be the reason for that in your opinion? Care to elaborate?
Tribalism. We all see "others" as a bit of a mystery and tend to mistake individual traits for trends among larger groups.

That's about as polite a spin on it I can muster.
 
martinvickers said:
But let's leave cycling for a moment. Is it not legitimate to note that, for example, Jamaica has a desperately poor anti-doping system, compared to some rivals? Is it not legitimate to note that when literally dozens of Turkish junior athletes ping in one great bunch as soon as they leave the country, that there may be an institutional issue?
Yes, that is legitimate.
 
Digger said:
it was lumped at me a lot last year that it was an anti british thing by me with sky...made no sense.
That's different than what I mean. That's tribal defensiveness manifesting without any real data or actual behavior to back it up.

I agree it makes no sense. I have yet to see anyone attack Anglos in general as having particular traits when it comes to doping or cycling. Always treated in the media and by other Anglos on individual merit.

Not always the case when it comes to...folks from sunnier climes.
 
red_flanders said:
Tribalism. We all see "others" as a bit of a mystery and tend to mistake individual traits for trends among larger groups.

That's about as polite a spin on it I can muster.
So it would be fair to assume that it's the same thing the other way round?
Seeing at how you're apparently able to recognize this tribalism when you see it, would you say you're above it? Or could it be that you try a bit too hard to be above it?

That's tribal defensiveness manifesting without any real data or actual behavior to back it up.
I didn't see you backing up anything you've said so far.
 

martinvickers

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roundabout said:
I feel there is a slight contradiction between having a VO2 max of around 90 and not considering himself to be particularly gifted.

Unless of course it's a thinly veiled comment about the road race scene at the time, but it doesn't seem like that to me.
Well, there's a certain amount of false modesty I suspect, but VO2 max is of itself not enough. He clearly had some of the tools to be a great. But equally clearly he didn't have all. Perhaps he just knew that - that his gifts were peculiar and niche.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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All the measures. Not all the training. All the measures.


Such a loaded word. I wonder if Floyd had played that sentence through his mind prior to the interview.
 

martinvickers

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red_flanders said:
Yes, that is legitimate.
Thank you.

So you might imagine it's legitimate to note, for example, that in Colombia, outside of a small number of specific clubs with decent reputations, there's a well known appalling doping culture? Which doesn't mean I immediately suspect Quintana.

That it's legitimate to note that 1998 was a turning point in the attitudes of French authorities to doping that had an effect on the chances of the nation's cyclists? Which doesn't mean I immediately suspect Pinot.

That the spanish 'authorities' have been less than useful on occasion when it comes to helping stamp out doping in their jurisdiction?Which doesn't mean I immediately suspect Castroviejo

I have absolutely no genetic/racial axe to grind, but I don't accept that all countries are exactly the same - not for some ludicrous facist/racist reason, but because of cultural reasons arising from their history. And cultures can change.

Let's be clear. As cycling becomes more and more mainstream in GB, there will be more JTLs. Doping follows success, fame and earning opportunities - the more of those come via cycling, the more dopers you'll get - just as there have been many, many more positives, for example, in English rugby union as it has grown. I'm sure JTL is just the start. Britain is no different, in that sense, than anywhere else.

But, and I mean this gently, I reserve the right to be alarmed at dozens of Turkish junior athletes all popping at the same time as soon as they leave the country. I reserve the right to be alarmed when a 14 year russian swimmer pops. I reserve the right to be slightly encouraged that all three recent Olympic candidates were extensively quizzed on doping - and that Japan's superior record in that area may have played into the decision to crown Tokyo.

I think, personally, that testing only gets you so far - you have to change cultures too. and some cultures, for purely historical, non-racial reasons, have greater problems than others. Many of which I trace back to governmental or societal issues, as it happens - whether it's the communist disease of USSR and GDR, the mad hyper-competitiveness of the USA, the catholic facism of Spain, Portugal and Italy, the rampant poverty of east africa, or, god help me, the chip on the shoulder-ism and faux morality of Ireland, Britain and Australia - for example.

I think, to some extent, the French attitude changed post 1998. Not all the way, not for all french, of course. But better than nothing. Something to work with.

My 2c
 

martinvickers

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Dear Wiggo said:
All the measures. Not all the training. All the measures.


Such a loaded word. I wonder if Floyd had played that sentence through his mind prior to the interview.
I'd put my house on it...watch this space...
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Netserk said:
'Cause your post certainly showed an excellent example of that...
Pot calling kettle? An irrelevant post to accuse another post of irrelevance for brandishing another irrelevant. How very post-modern of you
 

martinvickers

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Dear Wiggo said:
And so the vortex began.
Eek...can we pull back please? There was something approaching an interesting discussion before that silly B post, designed only to crash the discussion - any chance we can go back to it, s'il vous plait?
 
martinvickers said:
Eek...can we pull back please? There was something approaching an interesting discussion before that silly B post, designed only to crash the discussion - any chance we can go back to it, s'il vous plait?
It was actually your reply that was the turning point. Hint: It's the last thing in a Spanish stage.
 
martinvickers said:
Thank you.

So you might imagine it's legitimate to note, for example, that in Colombia, outside of a small number of specific clubs with decent reputations, there's a well known appalling doping culture? Which doesn't mean I immediately suspect Quintana.

That it's legitimate to note that 1998 was a turning point in the attitudes of French authorities to doping that had an effect on the chances of the nation's cyclists? Which doesn't mean I immediately suspect Pinot.

That the spanish 'authorities' have been less than useful on occasion when it comes to helping stamp out doping in their jurisdiction?Which doesn't mean I immediately suspect Castroviejo

I have absolutely no genetic/racial axe to grind, but I don't accept that all countries are exactly the same - not for some ludicrous facist/racist reason, but because of cultural reasons arising from their history. And cultures can change.

Let's be clear. As cycling becomes more and more mainstream in GB, there will be more JTLs. Doping follows success, fame and earning opportunities - the more of those come via cycling, the more dopers you'll get - just as there have been many, many more positives, for example, in English rugby union as it has grown. I'm sure JTL is just the start. Britain is no different, in that sense, than anywhere else.

But, and I mean this gently, I reserve the right to be alarmed at dozens of Turkish junior athletes all popping at the same time as soon as they leave the country. I reserve the right to be alarmed when a 14 year russian swimmer pops. I reserve the right to be slightly encouraged that all three recent Olympic candidates were extensively quizzed on doping - and that Japan's superior record in that area may have played into the decision to crown Tokyo.

I think, personally, that testing only gets you so far - you have to change cultures too. and some cultures, for purely historical, non-racial reasons, have greater problems than others. Many of which I trace back to governmental or societal issues, as it happens - whether it's the communist disease of USSR and GDR, the mad hyper-competitiveness of the USA, the catholic facism of Spain, Portugal and Italy, the rampant poverty of east africa, or, god help me, the chip on the shoulder-ism and faux morality of Ireland, Britain and Australia - for example.

I think, to some extent, the French attitude changed post 1998. Not all the way, not for all french, of course. But better than nothing. Something to work with.

My 2c


Phenomenal post. Very true in all respects.

The part many forget was that Festina was a national issue in France. Not from cyclists using PEDs but there was an underworld out there of dark forces import/export of drugs in and out of France.

When Armstrong entered stage right the US population had no idea what Festina not even save the fact they didn't even know it was a brand of watch.
 
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