Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dear Wiggo]

I've never noted that here or elsewhere. I will keep an eye out.

If anything the opposite (Spanish, Russians, etc are dodgy) would be truer.

 

[martinvickers]

If anything the opposite (Spanish, Russians, etc are dodgy) would be truer.

I disagree. I'd say it works both ways, personally. Which is kinda sad, but there you go.

 

[red_flanders]

If anything the opposite (Spanish, Russians, etc are dodgy) would be truer.

That I've seen a lot of.

Northerners can tend to lump the bad behavior of southerners into groups ("dirty Spaniards") but criticize other northerners individually ("Horner or Wiggins are dopers") without the cultural reference.

A common pattern in many walks of life.

 

[kingjr]

Northerners can tend to lump the bad behavior of southerners into groups ("dirty Spaniards") but criticize other northerners individually ("Horner or Wiggins are dopers") without the cultural reference.

You're doing the same thing right now.
Anyway, let's assume for a moment that's true, what would be the reason for that in your opinion? Care to elaborate?

 

[martinvickers]

That I've seen a lot of.

Northerners can tend to lump the bad behavior of southerners into groups ("dirty Spaniards") but criticize other northerners individually ("Horner or Wiggins are dopers") without the cultural reference.

A common pattern in many walks of life.

Depend what you mean. I would never, for example, lump Sastre in with Valverde, or Nibali in with Basso, or Bassons with Virenque, or for that matter Lemond with Armstrong, or Obree with Sean Yates, or Dan Martin with Stephen Roche - not on the evidence we currently have, anyway. Individuals are individuals, and deserved to be treated individually.

But let's leave cycling for a moment. Is it not legitimate to note that, for example, Jamaica has a desperately poor anti-doping system, compared to some rivals? Is it not legitimate to note that when literally dozens of Turkish junior athletes ping in one great bunch as soon as they leave the country, that there may be an institutional issue?

None of that suggests some racial or genetic problem, after all - in GB sprint dopers include both Jason Livingstone and Dougie Walker, and in Ireland we dope Horses regardless of colour - it's a cultural one reflected in institutions.

Or are you trying to argue that all doping, always and everywhere is absolutely the same both in numbers and types?

 

[Digger]

A spanking?

it's clear even from that quote what he thinks and how he thinks wiggins did it...plus Floyd is on record before as seriously questioning Wiggins' blood values from 09, which are amazingly similar to Floyd's values from '06.

Some people on twitter saying landis isn't relevant anymore...ashenden wasn't saying that when Floyd helped him fill in the dots on testing...but anyway landis has raced with and against dopers...won the biggest races...brought down lance and so many others...actually raced against wiggins...if his opinion isn't relevant then what chance is there...well none anyway, but it's even worse if we don't listen to landis, Jorg and so on.

You see a guy like wiggins and froome with their high cadence, used by some as a sign of innovation and efficiency...you need way more red blood cells to do that...which so happen to come from doping.

 

[Digger]

That I've seen a lot of.

Northerners can tend to lump the bad behavior of southerners into groups ("dirty Spaniards") but criticize other northerners individually ("Horner or Wiggins are dopers") without the cultural reference.

A common pattern in many walks of life.

it was lumped at me a lot last year that it was an anti british thing by me with sky...made no sense. In that case I am anti American (lance), Anti Jamican (Bolt), Anti Spanish, anti Australian, even anti Irish (Nicholas Roche who I believe started doping between his first and second GT).

One thing I will concede, is that obviously there is a much greater chance of getting into a debate/argument with the fan of an English speaking rider, simply because we are going to be speaking English...if I could speak Spanish I am sure I would have gone into Spanish forums the time of Alberto's steak...el diggero.

However, as things stand, I see no other team that has dominated stage racing, even remotely as much as Sky have done for three years. And for me stage racing has always been the hotbed of doping. You could always get lucky clean on a one day - rare - but possible...you won't get lucky over three weeks and beat a doped rider. Not a chance...and again that's another reason I have been focused on sky...

And I think it's fair to say that JV would have no problems admitting that I don't focus all my attention on Sky that's for sure...as I have given him and his team a lot of criticism up until this week even.

 

[bobbins]

Sorry, you're going to have to be less cryptic than that. Barcfelona, Boardman, ....

I've heard some things about Keen and trips to Belgium prior to the 1992 games. I'm not the only one to have heard these things so perhaps others here are aware?

 

[Digger]

I've heard some things about Keen and trips to Belgium prior to the 1992 games. I'm not the only one to have heard these things so perhaps others here are aware?

It would be incredibly naive to think Boardman did what he did in the track and road when epo was absolutely rampant and totally without control. Not even the hct rule was in...as an aside I've always felt that Sonia o Sullivan had to have been doping also. Indeed the Atlanta non performance has been linked with this.

 

[martinvickers]

It would be incredibly naive to think Boardman did what he did in the track and road when epo was absolutely rampant and totally without control. Not even the hct rule was in...as an aside I've always felt that Sonia o Sullivan had to have been doping also. Indeed the Atlanta non performance has been linked with this.

Well, let's look at this.

What Boardman did on the track, Graeme Obree basically matched - they swapped hour records, they swapped world pursuit titles. Boardman then transferred to a niche career on the road, Obree attempted to join him, and was stopped by his new team precisely because he wouldn't dope. He refused to dope with them, and then publically denounced them at the cost of any future pro career. Even Bassons never did that. He just kept his own honour, and shut his mouth till he was 'outed' as M. Propre -and that's laudible enough, frankly. Obree went much further, and to his own significant detriment.

So Obree is as good a bet, on the face of it, for clean as you can get; he paid the ultimate racing price for his right not to dope, and appears, on the track certainly, to be basically a complete match for Boardman.

Now, by your rational of performance=dope, you'd have to be incredibly naive to think Obree did what he did in the track when epo was absolutely rampant and totally without control, wouldn't you - since it was basically indistinguishable from what Boardman did.

Would you call Paul Kimmage incredibly naive? Because he thought Obree was clean as recently as launching his law suit against HV/PmcQ, when he specifically named him as one fo the riders he was fighting for!

If you want to argue that Boardman jumped on the good ship EPO on reaching the pro peleton, there's an argument there to be made, I entirely accept. He has no retested samples popping - I vaguely recall some had degraded, but no backdated popping - and he seemed very happy to freeze samples for future testing when he did his hour - but you can't know for certain, and it was "the worst of times". I'll not be shocked if it comes out he doped

But I don't think Paul Kimmage is naive about doping. Wrong, sometimes (Kohl) - but incredibly naive? Not buying that.

No, I think you wildily overstate your case there. You don't believe in Boardman. Fine, i've no problem with that whatsoever (see above) - but trying to make out it's some mental deficiency to disagree is ridiculous.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

boardman is a clear prove of a massively talented rider getting results in a clean way. he basically only won prologue's in which stuff like epo makes no difference. he shined in stage races like dauphinee when tour contenders were still not juiced up completely for the tour and when the tour was around boardman would be a non-factor outside of the prologue and his recuperation was considerably less than others.

 

[martinvickers]

boardman is a clear prove of a massively talented rider getting results in a clean way. he basically only won prologue's in which stuff like epo makes no difference. he shined in stage races like dauphinee when tour contenders were still not juiced up completely for the tour and when the tour was around boardman would be a non-factor outside of the prologue and his recuperation was considerably less than others.

I don't think boardman is clear proof of anything, one way or the other. That's kinda my point.

 

[Digger]

boardman is a clear prove of a massively talented rider getting results in a clean way. he basically only won prologue's in which stuff like epo makes no difference. he shined in stage races like dauphinee when tour contenders were still not juiced up completely for the tour and when the tour was around boardman would be a non-factor outside of the prologue and his recuperation was considerably less than others.

This is a wind up post right? Epo makes no difference in Prologues?
And riders weren't juiced up completely for dauphine races?

 

[SundayRider]

I don't think boardman is clear proof of anything, one way or the other. That's kinda my point.

If I had to gamble on his health problems being caused by doping or being totally natural it would be the doping.

 

[martinvickers]

If I had to gamble on his health problems being caused by doping or being totally natural it would be the doping.

Fair enough. I just wouldn't gamble on hte kind of evidence we have, personally - though I do still have to read the Gaumond book, I recall the Aubier interview in Rough Ride.

 

[Digger]

Jv himself says that 100% of the '98 tour field was doped. A race Boardman rode.
Then again....

 

[SundayRider]

Fair enough. I just wouldn't gamble on te kind of evidence we have, personally - thouh I do still have to read the Gaumond book.

The chance of suffering those kind of health problems at that age is very very slim. The chance of a cyclist doping in that era is very very high.

 

[martinvickers]

Jv himself says that 100% of the '98 tour field was doped. A race Boardman rode.
Then again....

Indeed, then again... Aubier, who roomed with him for two years, and called out just about every rider in the peleton, including his own team, said all the top 100 riders doped. Bar one. Boardman. Quoted in rough Ride by Kimmage. Again, is Kimmage incredibly naive?

Did Aubier sound incredibly naive to you?

Lemond thought Boardman was clean. Was he incredibly naive?

Papp said he had heard all sorts of rumours about all sorts of riders, but about Boardman, only one vague one; that he never doped on the road, only possibly for his second Hour attempt at the very end.

Is Papp incredibly naive? I imagine he's many things. Naive doesn't strike me as one of them.

Oh, and one more thing - since when did you start believing everything Vaughters says? You've called him a liar often enough. Is he only honest when he suits you?

One might suspect there you're just scrambling for anything that backs your own hunch up.

Which is fine, actually, there's no problem looking for backup. Hell, the hunch may even be right, I'm certainly not going to the gallows for Boardman's cleanliness - but to argue it's some no brainer, and only the gullible would possibly believe otherwise is ridiculous, and frankly, an attempt to stifle discussion by insulting contrary opinions.

Argue on the facts. Leave the editorialisng elsewhere. There'll be more light and less heat.

 

[martinvickers]

The chance of suffering those kind of health problems at that age is very very slim. The chance of a cyclist doping in that era is very very high.

Without some numbers, it's hard to say just how much weight to give to very, very. After all, it seems to be a 'very, very' rare health problem EVEN AMONG DOPERS.

I do know low testosterone is widely accepted as a standard secondary cause of osteo in men. So is overuse of steroid asthma medications.

you pays your money...

 

[lllludo]

If you don't mind me asking, who?

He wasn't just vocal. He lost his job over it, and then proceeded to lose his whole chance of a career when he spoke out about the team. That's arguably even above Bassons level, who only really came out after his own refusal to dope was made public.

One of his fellow competitor in Barcelona who later rode in the same team.

In "In search for Millar" Moore and Millar give another version of the story. Obree didn't show up for the 1st and 2nd Le Groupement team meetings then was sacked. Maybe Valcke had already advised him to dope for the Tour de France 6 months later. Only Obree knows that...

 

[lllludo]

Indeed, then again... Aubier, who roomed with him for two years, and called out just about every rider in the peleton, including his own team, said all the top 100 riders doped. Bar one. Boardman. Quoted in rough Ride by Kimmage. Again, is Kimmage incredibly naive?

Did Aubier sound incredibly naive to you?

Lemond thought Boardman was clean. Was he incredibly naive?

Papp said he had heard all sorts of rumours about all sorts of riders, but about Boardman, only one vague one; that he never doped on the road, only possibly for his second Hour attempt at the very end.

Is Papp incredibly naive? I imagine he's many things. Naive doesn't strike me as one of them.

Aubier said he never saw Boardman inject himself anything so he believes Boardman was clean. Aubier rode for GAN until 95 and was not a rider of the A-team. He never rode the Tour and was not often in the same races as Boardman.
Lemond who rode with GAN until 94 and rarely in 93 and 94.
Papp heard a rumour but it shall be dismissed...
I agree JV is an expert liar but when it comes to expose former dopers he's often reliable.
If only UKAD could have busted someone, anyone, it would be possible to convince some british fans that not all british riders are clean

 

[roundabout]

I still don't see how Boardman was a niche racer. Maybe the post 1997 one, but pre 1998 he achieved impressive 1 week race results. And not purely on TT strength

 

[DirtyWorks]

I agree JV is an expert liar but when it comes to expose former dopers he's often reliable.

JV1973 has a very keen sense of timing the disclosures, so IMHO the reliability comes from "reading tea leaves" very well.

If only UKAD could have busted someone, anyone, it would be possible to convince some british fans that not all british riders are clean

When it comes to WT cycling how can they? UKAD can't open cases and BC runs Team Sky. Why would they invite anti-doping controversy by starting a sanction with their WT winners? The system is ridiculously stacked against an anti-doping organization catching a federation-supported athlete.

Any IOC recognized sport federation, or the event promoter has the option to open a case and they don't have to exercise that option. The only exception where UKAD could open sanctions is if athletes go directly to UKAD. It has to be similar to how things played out with Armstrong. Even then the sports federation was trying to block the anti-doping authority.

 

[Catwhoorg]

If only UKAD could have busted someone, anyone, it would be possible to convince some british fans that not all british riders are clean

They did.
Dan Staite *giggles*

JTL is still up in the air though that came via the UCI

 

[DirtyWorks]

JTL is still up in the air though that came via the UCI

If the UCI behaved consistently, elite riders could reasonably expect JTL would be sanctioned as swiftly as FuYu Li, or less swiftly like the pursuit of a sanction against Bauge, or SOMETHING like those examples. There would be less doping because riders and teams would know to expect some kind of sanction.

Instead, we get what we have. Never tested positive and EPO-like power for months at a time from the skinniest riders in cycling history.