Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Catwhoorg]

Surely at the time there was a test for Testosterone but not EPO? So I woulnd't think it was that odd that you might worry about an exemption for the former but not the latter. . .

EPO was first tested for in 2000.
Urine only test was 2003.

 

[RownhamHill]

EPO was first tested for in 2000.
Urine only test was 2003.

Didn't he retire in 2000? When did he apply for the TUE for Testosterone, I'd assumed it was earlier than that, but I admit I know little about this. . .

 

[Catwhoorg]

As the thread is going to be pruned of this off topic sidebar. I hope anyone who does have anything on Boardman, speaks to CIRC about it.

We really need clarity in what was, and what is now.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Retired in 2000 and applied in 98 I think. Disappointing to hear about the doping accusations. Still, as people say, if it seems too good to be true...hopefully, someday we will know the truth.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Didn't he retire in 2000? When did he apply for the TUE for Testosterone, I'd assumed it was earlier than that, but I admit I know little about this. . .

The condition was diagnosed in 1998, so I would assume around that time frame.

 

[RownhamHill]

The condition was diagnosed in 1998, so I would assume around that time frame.

Yeah, so need for a TUE for EPO in 1998. . .

 

[SundayRider]

The question isn't whether Boardman was doping though, is it?

The question is more like whether he had any ability on the road, and whether his previous success on the track might have been an indicator of that ability.

Yeah no way Boardman was clean, he is never going to admit it though is he? Not with his commentary work and bike business.

 

[Digger]

Theo Bos - he's going well in the sprints.

This idea that track talent is as deep as road talent is hilarious. Logistically alone that's rubbish...how many countries, including Ireland, don't even have an indoor track.

Yet road cycling is currently flying.

 

[lllludo]

What is the name of that book and do you have a link to Vaughters's saying this?

edit. I found the book title (Prisonnier du dopage ) but I have not seen any reference to the events you describe. Sounds interesting though. I will give it a read.

It's in Vaughters twitter thread end of July 2013

No big deal that just confirms what's in Gaumont's book. It's in the chapter about 1996 when he won 4JDD fueled by EPO and assisted by Boardman.
Oddly for many UK cyling "experts" Walsh, Moore, Fotheringham .... Boardman is not only labeled as a clean rider but he's also the only credible superstar of the 1995-00 era.

 

[RownhamHill]

Theo Bos - he's going well in the sprints.

This idea that track talent is as deep as road talent is hilarious. Logistically alone that's rubbish...how many countries, including Ireland, don't even have an indoor track.

Yet road cycling is currently flying.

Has anyone suggested that track talent is as deep as road talent? The only, rather modest, suggestion I saw was that a 25 year old triple world champion and double world champion on the track might be the indicator of having some transferable talent to the road. That's got nothing to do with depth of talent at all.

 

[veganrob]

The condition was diagnosed in 1998, so I would assume around that time frame.

Why would a healthy male, an elite athlete, suddenly be diagnosed for low testosterone?

 

[Mellow Velo]

Riders have to progress from somewhere.
The current suggestion appears to be that an elite young track rider making the move to a high quality, road domestique is far more indicative of a potential doper, than a rider emerging from the mass ranks of junior road racers, to have a similar career trajectory.
Have I got that right?
Cos given the sport's history, I'd say that was bananas.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Why would a healthy male, an elite athlete, suddenly be diagnosed for low testosterone?

The primary diagnosis was an osteoporosis type of illness.

Testosterone is one of the treatment options indicted at that time.
(Options are much different these days, a lot of hormone modifiers out there).


But your leading question is designed to get the answer: steroid use can lead to low T.

 

[martinvickers]

It's in Vaughters twitter thread end of July 2013

No big deal that just confirms what's in Gaumont's book. It's in the chapter about 1996 when he won 4JDD fueled by EPO and assisted by Boardman.
Oddly for many UK cyling "experts" Walsh, Moore, Fotheringham .... Boardman is not only labeled as a clean rider but he's also the only credible superstar of the 1995-00 era.

I think two issues cloud the Boardman question.

1) his link with Peter Keen, the original godfather of the British renaissance. Boardman was to all intents and purposes Keen's "proof of concept" for the rejuvenated high performance track squad, the first signing of which was one 19yo Bradley Wiggins.

If Boardman was dirty with Keen, it places the entire track program in a dangerous light, unless the argument is that a clean Boardman went to France, saw 'the way things were' and THEN joined in.

2) Obree. Pretty much matched Boardman in both IP and going for the hour, with less resources. And Obree has a solid record re: doping if anyone does.

The point being, if Obree could do it clean, then in theory there's no pure performance reason why boardman could not have done it clean either, at least the bits and at the times where they were in direct competition.

I haven't read the Gaumont book yet, only hearing stuff second hand from it. not sure my Year 5 french will be up to it, but Must chase it up, sounds interesting.

 

[SundayRider]

I think two issues cloud the Boardman question.

1) his link with Peter Keen, the original godfather of the British renaissance. Boardman was to all intents and purposes Keen's "proof of concept" for the rejuvenated high performance track squad, the first signing of which was one 19yo Bradley Wiggins.

If Boardman was dirty with Keen, it places the entire track program in a dangerous light, unless the argument is that a clean Boardman went to France, saw 'the way things were' and THEN joined in.

2) Obree. Pretty much matched Boardman in both IP and going for the hour, with less resources. And Obree has a solid record re: doping if anyone does.

The point being, if Obree could do it clean, then in theory there's no pure performance reason why boardman could not have done it clean either, at least the bits and at the times where they were in direct competition.

I haven't read the Gaumont book yet, only hearing stuff second hand from it. not sure my Year 5 french will be up to it, but Must chase it up, sounds interesting.

If Obree matched the times of Boardman on the track and thus was capable of doign similar on the road why then did the peloton laugh at him for refusing to dope. Doesn't make sense.

 

[Catwhoorg]

If Boardman was dirty with Keen, it places the entire track program in a dangerous light, unless the argument is that a clean Boardman went to France, saw 'the way things were' and THEN joined in.

This is very true.
Boardman (and to a lesser extent Obree), paved the way for the whole lottery funding of British Track Cycling.

 

[BYOP88]

Not looking to derail the forum harmony.
I only posted the info to give some factual context to show that Thomas was successfully splitting his time between the boards and the tarmac, while at Barloworld.

However, you do seem to be getting confused over what is normally considered classics/mountains parcour.
The Cote de Mont Brouilly, (yesterday's climb) being 3kms at 8% would normally be considered to fall into the former (Ardennes), not the latter (Alps) category.

Taylor Phinney also says 'hi'.

When I mentioned Thomas and climbing I was using last year as reference, you know when Thomas did some damage on climbs whilst setting pace, which I can't remember him doing in his Barloworld days, but I guess then he was just focused on the Track and getting drunk.

How many Paris-Roubaix's has Phinney won?

Dmitry Kozonchuk, Sergey Lagutin, Sébastien Joly, Popo and a few others say 'hi'.

 

[blackcat]

When I mentioned Thomas and climbing I was using last year as reference, you know when Thomas did some damage on climbs whilst setting pace, which I can't remember him doing in his Barloworld days, but I guess then he was just focused on the Track and getting drunk.

How many Paris-Roubaix's has Phinney won?

Dmitry Kozonchuk, Sergey Lagutin, Sébastien Joly, Popo and a few others say 'hi'.

G was 20 or 21 in his first TdF with Barlo.


Lance was having his nappies changed by linda in austin that age

give him time

 

[Mellow Velo]

When I mentioned Thomas and climbing I was using last year as reference, you know when Thomas did some damage on climbs whilst setting pace, which I can't remember him doing in his Barloworld days, but I guess then he was just focused on the Track and getting drunk.

How many Paris-Roubaix's has Phinney won?

Dmitry Kozonchuk, Sergey Lagutin, Sébastien Joly, Popo and a few others say 'hi'.

Taylor 2 Thomas 1.

You are right.
That's the trouble with twenty year old blokes.
Win a few World and Olympic titles on the track, finish the odd Tour and Giro at the same time, which of course is simples for kids and then all the want to do is go out and have a few beers with their mates.
No commitment.

 

[martinvickers]

If Obree matched the times of Boardman on the track and thus was capable of doign similar on the road why then did the peloton laugh at him for refusing to dope. Doesn't make sense.

Obree was capable of doing similar things on the track. We know this, because he did. There's no 'if'. There's an if about whether he was clean - but not much of one - Kimmage was and remained certainly a believer - though to be fair, he was vocal in believing Boardman too as memory serves at the time.

We know Obree was pretty/very outspoken on doping issues, and it clearly did for him. In terms of believing in him, that has to be a VERY good sign - he literally sacrificed his career over it. And that has to put his hour in perspective.

I always got the feeling it was his 'attitude' not his 'performance' that got him mocked. from what i've read, once his views became clear to his team, they binned him before he'd really began - 12 hrs or something. Perhaps if they hadn't been quite so sneering, he might have shown them a thing or two. One of the great what ifs. But once he spoke, he wasn't coming back. and he was a better person for it.

Boardman kept schtum, apart from a few comments on Gaumont, and got to have a career (albeit a very niche - specialised one - unlike fellow hour rider Merckx, and fellow hour rider, AND world ind. pursuit champ. Coppi)

 

[bobbins]

I think two issues cloud the Boardman question.

1) his link with Peter Keen, the original godfather of the British renaissance. Boardman was to all intents and purposes Keen's "proof of concept" for the rejuvenated high performance track squad, the first signing of which was one 19yo Bradley Wiggins.

If Boardman was dirty with Keen, it places the entire track program in a dangerous light, unless the argument is that a clean Boardman went to France, saw 'the way things were' and THEN joined in.

2) Obree. Pretty much matched Boardman in both IP and going for the hour, with less resources. And Obree has a solid record re: doping if anyone does.

The point being, if Obree could do it clean, then in theory there's no pure performance reason why boardman could not have done it clean either, at least the bits and at the times where they were in direct competition.

I haven't read the Gaumont book yet, only hearing stuff second hand from it. not sure my Year 5 french will be up to it, but Must chase it up, sounds interesting.

Do some digging WRT Keen in 1992 and you might find some answers.

 

[martinvickers]

Do some digging WRT Keen in 1992 and you might find some answers.

Sorry, you're going to have to be less cryptic than that. Barcfelona, Boardman, ....

 

[BYOP88]

Taylor 2 Thomas 1.

You are right.
That's the trouble with twenty year old blokes.
Win a few World and Olympic titles on the track, finish the odd Tour and Giro at the same time, which of course is simples for kids and then all the want to do is go out and have a few beers with their mates.
No commitment.

So Peter Velits should have rainbow bands on his jersey sleeves? You may want to check your info regarding P-R winners. Phinney and Thomas have no Paris-Roubaix wins. They have 2 U-23's and 1 Junior Paris-Roubaix between them but no 'senior' wins.

In 2007 Thomas was out the back the moment the road went up, he was probably talking with Froome and how in 6 years one of them would be winning the Tour. Seem to remember Wiggins mentioning something about that and the respect he had for Thomas, when he had his press conference in Manchester when Cofidis were booted out in '07. I can't remember Thomas doing much on climbs until 2011.

 

[pmcg76]

If Obree matched the times of Boardman on the track and thus was capable of doign similar on the road why then did the peloton laugh at him for refusing to dope. Doesn't make sense.

I don't think Obree ever got the chance to compete on the road properly once booted by LeGroupment. There was also one massive difference between Boardman and Obree in terms of experience. Obree had very little road racing experience, Boardman was capable of winning races like Tour of Lancashire/Premier Calendar races as well as numerous selections for British teams in international road races. His focus was track but he still raced road races and when committed, he was the best amateur rider in Britain.

Obree did track and the TT scene in Britain and that was about it, for some reason I have a memory that Obree didn't even have a Cat 1 racing licence around 90/91. I think there was also a belief that the bike set-up was a big part of Obree's success. Obree did ride the GP des Nations in 93 I think and was 15th or something but that was on his bike which was not ideal for riding on the road.

 

[Mellow Velo]

So Peter Velits should have rainbow bands on his jersey sleeves? You may want to check your info regarding P-R winners. Phinney and Thomas have no Paris-Roubaix wins. They have 2 U-23's and 1 Junior Paris-Roubaix between them but no 'senior' wins.

In 2007 Thomas was out the back the moment the road went up, he was probably talking with Froome and how in 6 years one of them would be winning the Tour. Seem to remember Wiggins mentioning something about that and the respect he had for Thomas, when he had his press conference in Manchester when Cofidis were booted out in '07. I can't remember Thomas doing much on climbs until 2011.

You may want to check my initial post. It says age 17: Junior P-R.

You can only wear rainbow bands in the discipline in which they were won,
as we all know.
So, the youngest starter and finisher of the 2007 Tour as a domestique, while winning a senior world title on the track.
At 21, Olympic champion, starts and finishes a tough Giro as a domestique and finished 5th in an "rolling" Italian semi classic.
This is all meaningless.

This started out as a debate about natural progression.
When talented riders mature and are given a chance to move up the ladder.
Yet it seems if you ride for Sky, but can't climb like young Nairo Quintana from day one, you should never be able to get over a speed bump.
That is the exception to the natural progression rule.