Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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May 26, 2009
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Ventoux Boar said:
[Sorry to break off mid-chinwag. Had to catch a few Spring photons]
Cheers for the reply, it's ok I'm aware that people have other stuff that needs attention IRL instead of the fun game of back &forth of internet chat rooms.

Ventoux Boar said:
That's a fair question. And good deal more rational than the Sky shill taunts. No offence, but your general posting suggests you're far too sharp for handbags. (Not that I'm not game for a laugh:))
I don't mind the odd game of 'handbags' every once in a while, who doesn't?

Ventoux Boar said:
My take is that I don't believe in miracles. I doubt he was a donkey 6 weeks before the Vuelta, somehow scored some seriously good gear, permanently transforming him into the best rider most of us have ever seen.
I think it's much more likely that his results were compromised by illness, inexperience at elite level, defensive team tactics, and 1001 other things that lead most riders to fall short of their potential. If correct, it's shortsighted to directly equate results with maximum performance.
I don't think I've ever said he was a donkey. I think(I could be wrong in my logic) it's unlikely a "donkey" would survive that long in the peloton. Regarding the responding to the gear, maybe a clean bill of health meant he could respond better to his or the teams program or maybe he's never done any gear and he is just that good.
I accept he had Schistosomiasis at some point in his life, again I don't think I've ever doubted that point. I just find it strange that the amount of tests that are run on cyclists by elite teams wouldn't they pick something up with Froome's test results. Given the PR that Sky come up with and the science they say they employ, I do find it a little odd that this could escape their net. From the stuff I've looked up about the illness it does seem that with most illnesses the quicker it's found the easier it is to treat and cure. The longer it's left the more damage it does and can lead to more serious conditions like HIV, flaccid paraplegia, Bladder cancer and other stuff. It would help if the info regarding Froome and this all said the same thing, but Cound says one thing, Team Sky say another, Froome says another and so on. Look at what Cound said on Velorooms regarding the treatment in March 2012 to what Froome said about it.

Ventoux Boar said:
I also think his dominance over Tour debutant, and superstar Valverde sacrifice, Quintana is exaggerated. As are the climbing records - sample size and Alpe d'Huez for example.
I don't think it matters if a guy is riding the Tour for the first or tenth time, you got the legs you've got them. The reason that people mention the climbing times is because of the stuff Brailsford says. Just out of interest, do you think that Valverde and Quintana are clean?(I'm happy to discuss that in the Movistar thread, to not derail this one)

Ventoux Boar said:
Accepting that he needed to fix quite a few things, but that the underlying engine was sound, paradoxically makes the dark arts case easier to make. Now we don't need miraculous transformations, we just need a snapping of resolve in desperation to save a career. And regular, 'everybody does it', doping.
I see your point that he may have needed to fix stuff and those things may have turned him from autobus-podium, but in the time frame of Poland to Vuelta, I don't see how that's possible.

Ventoux Boar said:
All this heretic hunting is diverting y'all from committing acts of original thought around the Sergio situation.
Been doing that on another forum. Could do with a few more hours in the day.

Ventoux Boar said:
That's my take.
Once again, thanks for the reply. Have a good one.:)
 
Feb 22, 2014
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Tremendous. I was giving my general take, by the way, not suggesting you held all views. Amongst the interesting things you said, this stood out.

BYOP88 said:
I accept he had Schistosomiasis at some point in his life, again I don't think I've ever doubted that point. I just find it strange that the amount of tests that are run on cyclists by elite teams wouldn't they pick something up with Froome's test results. Given the PR that Sky come up with and the science they say they employ, I do find it a little odd that this could escape their net.
One of the things I learned from the Sergio situation is that the anomaly was picked up by the Sky expert team formed in the wake of JTL to monitor compliance: suggesting to me that there was no monitoring before winter 2013, with all sorts of interesting implications.
 
BYOP88 said:
In that picture I've noticed that the cyclist not wearing glasses is ahead of those cyclists that are wearing glasses. #marginalgains.
The gold neck chain will be costing Cobo minutes.

Ever seen a Sky rider with a hairy chest and gold chain? Never.

#marginalgains #nochain
 
Jul 21, 2012
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Saint Unix said:
The whole marginal gains thing makes it sound like the riders before 2010 were overweight fast-food restaurant customers riding in 40kg bomb suits while using their hands to pedal lead-framed bikes with square wheels.


To be honest, if it was like that that would explain how Froome is now cleaning up.
I have yet to see anyone that isnt british buy into that horse****.

Froome gets 20% extra power... hmmmm adjusted bolts or doping? I wonder. :rolleyes:
 
Mar 8, 2010
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Ventoux Boar said:
My take is that I don't believe in miracles. I doubt he was a donkey 6 weeks before the Vuelta, somehow scored some seriously good gear, permanently transforming him into the best rider most of us have ever seen.
SKY fans typical : the "best rider most of us have ever seen" was not a donkey 6 weeks before Vuelta 2011 but just an average rider.
Then he won on Pena Cabarga in a display of power (6,4W/kg) after more than 2 weeks of racing. How funny last year in Ax3D Sky fans were saying "it's normal Froomey climbed faster than Armstrong did, because in 2013 the climb comes only after 1 week of racing"

By the way, nice ride today by Swifty, another former protege of Max Sciandri nurtured in Quarrata. It makes us feel better after the blood passport irregularities from JTL and Henao.
Swifty was flamboyant in Mallorca in the beginning of the season then rode very nicely for 8th in Nokere Korse, as Nokereberg is the ideal preparation for MSR capi as everybody knows. Today he was so strong climbing the Cipressa, 3rd wheel just behind Sagan. Impressive on Poggio again he came close to winning today. Good job signore Cecchini !
 
Mar 11, 2009
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The whole "nothing to see here" Ventioux Bear chat has been interesting.
We WATCH the racing and there are "extraterrestrial" performances.
Denying that which is hidden in plain sight.
Jedi mind tricks.
"These aren't the sky bots you are looking for "

Also Ax3 was defo extraterrestrial !
 
Mar 12, 2009
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sniper said:
does anybody know where to find the footage of mcquaid talking about sky's winner's celebration party long before the end of the 2012 tdf?
Tried to search it but couldn't find it, maybe someone with better search skills can. I do remember that well, saw it too.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Should be a great road racing cycling show in Cataluna, since Horner isn´t there. Thus I´ll sit back, relax, and enjoy the competition between two relative young men. Even if it would be a doping battle, at least it wouldn´t be outright grotesque like last years Vuelta... and of course I´ll have a look here now and then when Sky-bashing climaxes :D
Looking forward a great cycling week in all matters
 
Feb 22, 2014
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lllludo said:
SKY fans typical : the "best rider most of us have ever seen" was not a donkey 6 weeks before Vuelta 2011 but just an average rider.
Then he won on Pena Cabarga in a display of power (6,4W/kg) after more than 2 weeks of racing. How funny last year in Ax3D Sky fans were saying "it's normal Froomey climbed faster than Armstrong did, because in 2013 the climb comes only after 1 week of racing"
Why the need to insult and distort? That's the work of tribal Hacks like Sunday and Hog. Detecting fealty to the disgusting toxic Murdoch corporation through my postings suggests you might want to read a little harder.

Rather than rummage through your archive of the two climbs where you can point to the supernatural - while scientifically ignoring the others - why not look at the genuinely interesting new information about Sky's compliance monitoring that emerged from interviews explaining Sergio's benching?
 
Feb 24, 2014
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Ventoux Boar said:
why not look at the genuinely interesting new information I hinted at in the Sergio case?
Cut out the cloak and dagger stuff (there is enough of that going on). If you have info please post along with a source.
Thank you.
 
Feb 22, 2014
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deeno1975 said:
Cut out the cloak and dagger stuff (there is enough of that going on). If you have info please post along with a source.
Thank you.
A new sheriff hits town. I edited my post to include the same information that was in the previous one. I look forward to you keeping all of us to the same high standards.
 
Feb 24, 2014
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Ventoux Boar said:
A new sheriff hits town. I edited my post to include the same information that was in the previous one. I look forward to you keeping all of us to the same high standards.
This thread is massive, keeping track is hard enough without the wink and nod posting. I still can't find what new info you have on the Henao case. please indulge me and post this new info, sorry if you have to repeat yourself, ta.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Some time pre-Vuelta 2011:
DB: righto team coaches, ds's and other assorted management staff, let's discuss 2012 and our hiring and firing short list
Group: mumble murmur nod
...
DB: Next up, Froome. Done little all year. Nice enough guy but I really don't think he's going anywhere nor doing anything. Thoughts?
Group: mumble murmur shake
DB: Righto then. Froome's out. Next up is Wiggo...
...

...

Some time mid-Vuelta 2011:
DB: dafuq is this Froome kid? He's kickin' Wiggo's as- holy seat bolts Sutto, he just caned Wiggo in a fricken TT. Goddamnit, now we're gonna be bleeding from all our financial orifices to keep him in the team. Seems completely legit, no need to start monitoring rider power files, do VO2 max or any sort of physiological testing, send him to a wind tunnel nor scrutinise his BP for anomalies. Perfectly reasonable turn around in ability.
...
...

JTL gets "busted".
DB: D'Oh! If only I had have had a rider test over 50% Hct in 2008 the day before World champs, called Rob Hayles, I could have learnt that despite not doping my riders directly, monitoring their blood parameters might have been a good idea to prevent this eggy mess all over my face. Ok, well, we'll start now. Monthly BP reviews. Despite the fact the APMU could be checking results and questioning riders at any time we'll do a BP review of our riders once a month. Noone else is suspicious nor doing any sort of extraordinary performances before now, going from "about to be fired" to "kickin' Wiggo to the curb in a TT and pretty much winning the Vuelta", but ... just to be safe. Marginal brains and all that.
...
...


Someone in a cycling forum, somewhere
The only reason Sky didn't pick up Froome's outrageous improvement is because they were not reviewing his BP.

Me:
uh. no.
 
Feb 22, 2014
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deeno1975 said:
This thread is massive, keeping track is hard enough without the wink and nod posting. I still can't find what new info you have on the Henao case. please indulge me and post this new info, sorry if you have to repeat yourself, ta.
Sorry.

I think it's interesting that Sky formed a team of experts to monitor Wada compliance in the wake of the JTL passport case - no earlier than September 2013. I think this suggests that there was no monitoring before this time, which I found surprising. If true there are implications for the team's (widely assumed comprehensive and scientific) internal testing, and the team's view on the deterrent value of testing.
 
Feb 22, 2014
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Dear Wiggo said:
Someone in a cycling forum, somewhere
The only reason Sky didn't pick up Froome's outrageous improvement is because they were not reviewing his BP.
:) Very entertaining. Thanks for making the effort.

Even if they weren't reviewing the BP, I'm pretty sure* they're on record as reviewing his "power files" post Vuelta to check for precisely this.

*Disclaimer - Info may have been from Walsh appearance on Humans Invent podcast. And we all know Walsh and the HI crew are Murdoch propagandists
 
Feb 24, 2014
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Ventoux Boar said:
Sorry.

I think it's interesting that Sky formed a team of experts to monitor Wada compliance in the wake of the JTL passport case - no earlier than September 2013. I think this suggests that there was no monitoring before this time, which I found surprising. If true there are implications for the team's (widely assumed comprehensive and scientific) internal testing, and the team's view on the deterrent value of testing.
Thanks for the clarification
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Ventoux Boar said:
:) Very entertaining. Thanks for making the effort.

Even if they weren't reviewing the BP, I'm pretty sure* they're on record as reviewing his "power files" post Vuelta to check for precisely this.
Post-vuelta - ie after the horse had bolted?

That's as useful as testing a rider's blood / urine either side of a step test the day after he won a prestigious U23 classic, imo.

ie not.

A before & after Vuelta 2011 comparison is going to show a jump in power, no question. Kerrison was tracking power values from 2010, so it should be a no brainer to do this comparison.
 
Feb 22, 2014
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Dear Wiggo said:
Post-vuelta - ie after the horse had bolted?

That's as useful as testing a rider's blood / urine either side of a step test the day after he won a prestigious U23 classic, imo.

ie not.

A before & after Vuelta 2011 comparison is going to show a jump in power, no question. Kerrison was tracking power values from 2010, so it should be a no brainer to do this comparison.
I'm forensically challenged... Here's the podcast I was referring to: 15 minutes in. Walsh retells the tale of Richard Freeman, Sky Dr, reviewing Froome's pre-Vuelta data for irregularities.

The two events that we know of provoking Sky to review passports are JTL's charge, and Froome's 2011 Vuelta.:p
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Ventoux Boar said:
I'm forensically challenged... Here's the podcast I was referring to: 15 minutes in. Walsh retells the tale of Richard Freeman, Sky Dr, reviewing Froome's pre-Vuelta data for irregularities.

The two events that we know of provoking Sky to review passports are JTL's charge, and Froome's 2011 Vuelta.:p
We already pretty much debunked / tore that podcast (which was printed somewhere - can't remember or care now) to shreds.

It was a farce that anyone with critical thinking skills or journalistic ability would have been sorely ashamed of releasing to the thinking public.

Fluff and puffery at best. Disingenuous twaddle at worst.

Starts here: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=1349563#post1349563
ETA: Isn't Freeman the Dr who interviewed Leinders and gave him the all-clear?
 

EnacheV

BANNED
Jul 7, 2013
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lllludo said:
By the way, nice ride today by Swifty, another former protege of Max Sciandri nurtured in Quarrata. It makes us feel better after the blood passport irregularities from JTL and Henao.
Swifty was flamboyant in Mallorca in the beginning of the season then rode very nicely for 8th in Nokere Korse, as Nokereberg is the ideal preparation for MSR capi as everybody knows. Today he was so strong climbing the Cipressa, 3rd wheel just behind Sagan. Impressive on Poggio again he came close to winning today. Good job signore Cecchini !
you post 100 words with 5-10 lies/inaccuracies/own whishfull thinking presented as facts

this is why i laugh all the time at clinic trolls and haters.

seriously, you wouldn't expect to be listen seriously when you post garbage like this.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Dear Wiggo said:
We already pretty much debunked / tore that podcast (which was printed somewhere - can't remember or care now) to shreds.

It was a farce that anyone with critical thinking skills or journalistic ability would have been sorely ashamed of releasing to the thinking public.

Fluff and puffery at best. Disingenuous twaddle at worst.
baffling, right, how he suggests freeman's word is some objective bit of evidence.
just stunning coming from the man who tackled lance/usps.
 
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