Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[sniper]

Re: Sky

...
Who knows why oldcrank's posts have been removed?

if you need me to explain "off topic trolling" to you, I'll be happy to.

You are so kind. No thanks. I don't want to labour the point, but my own post was as much on topic as many and oldcrank thought fit to support it with more proof that the particular sniping against Sky and Thomas in particular was unwarranted on this occasion. Getting his post removed was the pits, but I have no more to say about it.

i think the mods are capable of making up their own minds.
nobody 'got' nothing removed.
Most of oldcrank's posts are still up, even if 90% is off topic.
I don't think he ever got banned either, even though posters get banned on a regular basis for posting off topic.
So no, he's not unfairly treated.

What, in your view, is responsible for Sky/BC's success, if not the marginal gains?
If marginal gains, then why no windtunnel?
If not the marginal gains, then why do they pretend it's the marginal gains?
These are largely rethorical questions, Wrinkly, but surprise me if you have an alternative answer.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Sky

...
Who knows why oldcrank's posts have been removed?

if you need me to explain "off topic trolling" to you, I'll be happy to.

You are so kind. No thanks. I don't want to labour the point, but my own post was as much on topic as many and oldcrank thought fit to support it with more proof that the particular sniping against Sky and Thomas in particular was unwarranted on this occasion. Getting his post removed was the pits, but I have no more to say about it.

i think the mods are capable of making up their own minds.
nobody 'got' nothing removed.
Most of oldcrank's posts are still up, even if 90% is off topic.


If marginal gains, then why no windtunnel?
If not the marginal gains, then why do they pretend it's the marginal gains?

That's right, I expect marginal gains have much to do with it and they include work on riding position. That's what the video this started with was all about. The point being made about it was spurious. He's been in a wind tunnel and he's been a winner. He's also been working on his position as shown in the video. I looked at the video. it did not support the point being made (in the terms it was made), to which I responded.

 

[Benotti69]

6.  Innovation like no other. Brailsford had talked of “going right to the line” of what was legal – but had they crossed it?

Seems Wiggins confirmed it in his quote about Sharapova.

Wiggins:

"we get told "stop taking that, by the doctor"

So Sky 'dope' and as long as it is not on a list it is legal, it would appear.

 

[sniper]

Wrinkly straddling the border between extreme gullibility and intellectual dishonesty.

If you can be bothered search The Climb for the key word "wind tunnel" and tell me why G hasn't been in one since 2007. Or why Froome hadn't been in one pre-2012(13?).

I also like this Ketchell guy's profile
http://www.teamsky.com/teamsky/staff/article/7781#fvYJvxe5w7YTFgbV.97

Working at a wind tunnel facility in Colorado, Ketchell built the testing balance and software to enable the aerodynamic testing of cyclists.
...
With an ever-evolving role, Ketchell has put his years of experience in aerodynamic analysis to use, helping the team find key gains in aero projects.

Now what did G say? No aero/positioning work since 2007.
Lol, i guess.

 

[CTQ]

Robby Ketchell works for Team Sky since 2015. He was with Team Garmin Sharp before.




http://garmin.blogs.com/my_weblog/2014/01/team-garmin-sharp-sports-scientist-robby-ketchell-talks-aerodynamics.html#.VuQF9OLhDIU

 

[veganrob]

Re: Sky

Yeah, one would think Sky could do better than that. Maybe after all the BS they spoon feed their fans they are running out of marginal gains to brag about. Remember how proud they were of having a TT bike with hidden bolts. OMG hidden bolts, how could they think of something so amazing. Despit the fact every TT bike in the peloton has hidden bolts. And the SKy fans lap it up.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re:

Wrinkly straddling the border between extreme gullibility and intellectual dishonesty.

If you can be bothered search The Climb for the key word "wind tunnel" and tell me why G hasn't been in one since 2007. Or why Froome hadn't been in one pre-2012(13?).

I also like this Ketchell guy's profile
http://www.teamsky.com/teamsky/staff/article/7781#fvYJvxe5w7YTFgbV.97

Working at a wind tunnel facility in Colorado, Ketchell built the testing balance and software to enable the aerodynamic testing of cyclists.
...
With an ever-evolving role, Ketchell has put his years of experience in aerodynamic analysis to use, helping the team find key gains in aero projects.

Now what did G say? No aero/positioning work since 2007.
Lol, i guess.

Lets get this right, I am not up for being called intellectually dishonest, however you dress it up. the original item from Froomestrong was,

This team is a total farce. In a GCN video, G. Thomas says that he hasnt done ANY aero/positioning work since...
2007.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiwvmDcKycI

Marginal gains apparently dont extend to the low hanging fruit like positioning. Amazing.

In reply I said

It doesn't seem to have done him any harm. More precisely he says he has not been in a wind tunnel since 2007. Perhaps he didn't need to do so!

2012 Olympic Games - gold in Team pursuit
2012 World Track Championships 1st (rainbow jersey) Team pursuit

Must have an awful position!

Now that's the extent of my view on this. You ask what he said.

In the video he was asked, "We are at the Palma Velodrome and you are going to be testing your position which I understand you have not done since 2012, am I right?"

Thomas replied, "Yes, I was in the wind tunnel in 2007-ish and yeah, obviously with the track stuff we done and we did quite a lot of work on it then, but yeah, ever since I left the track I have not done anything."

And there he was, doing something on the video with computer analysis, the lot. What he said disclosed his 2007-ish wind tunnel work and other work while he was riding track i.e. before the Olympics and Worlds.

Now I don't dispute any of that and never have. The guy had done enough work on it for his wins and is working on it again in the video. It doesn't need to be turned into a doping issue and should not be.

I am not up for further discussion on this simple issue - please feel free of course, but I am not coming back on it. Accusing somebody of verging on intellectual honesty is the last bastion of the man who does not want to acknowledge another's view.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Re: Re:

Wrinkly straddling the border between extreme gullibility and intellectual dishonesty.

If you can be bothered search The Climb for the key word "wind tunnel" and tell me why G hasn't been in one since 2007. Or why Froome hadn't been in one pre-2012(13?)..................

Lets get this right, I am not up for being called intellectually dishonest, however you dress it up.
......
I am not up for further discussion on this simple issue - please feel free of course, but I am not coming back on it. Accusing somebody of verging on intellectual honesty is the last bastion of the man who does not want to acknowledge another's view.

Sniper did acknowledge the view expressed in your posts, as so many others who read your posts can also do. Those posts trip between attempting to appear extremely gullible, based on this being professional cycling and all that entails, and genuinely avoiding connecting hard facts together.

When the blood passport came out G was right up there with a bunch of guys who have since been popped. Fact. Take yourself back to the time Pantani and the rest had been popped and Lance's fans were trying to tell us around 2002 2003 that he was the only guy riding clean. It is that level of intellectual incontinence that earns ridicule. Move the spotlight to recent events at BC. Millar doped in 2003 to win, and had his medal taken off him. Fact. But was "clean" when he was 2nd against a field, rich in dopers, by just a handful of seconds. He keeps his medal because he has been "honest" and told us everything about his doping, and he now is selected by Sutton to counsel youngsters on the perils of doping. Some (i) cretins will believe he is being honest, saying he could beat all those dopers by riding clean, others (ii) will know he is lying and feign gullibility, whilst being intellectually dishonest and then there are many who post here (iii) who joined the dots just as we did with Armstrong before and recognise BS when we see it.

The cold eye of the intelligent observer, with no vested interest in cycling might conclude, that the only thing Sky have really gone to town on, and applied "marginal gains" beyond their competitors, is in ensuring their riders are the most informed and most well supported athletes in the peloton on how to avoid tripping the low grade intelligence test and so not return any positives.

The "new clean generation" have produced as many positives in the sport as ever their predecessors did and with motor doping eventually (what 6 to 16 years after it entered the peloton ?) now being outed, only a moron would think that this is a sport where corruption is not part of the DNA of any long term participants.

I am sure such there is an audience for the kind of intellectually, dyslexic posts that Sniper criticises, but if you post them on this this forum you can expect them to be criticised.

Oh and by the way - play the ball not the man and intellectual DIShonesty was the accusation rightly made of the posts you put up.

 

[The Hitch]

Check mate.

 

[The Carrot]

Re: Re:

Wrinkly straddling the border between extreme gullibility and intellectual dishonesty.

If you can be bothered search The Climb for the key word "wind tunnel" and tell me why G hasn't been in one since 2007. Or why Froome hadn't been in one pre-2012(13?)..................

Lets get this right, I am not up for being called intellectually dishonest, however you dress it up.
......
I am not up for further discussion on this simple issue - please feel free of course, but I am not coming back on it. Accusing somebody of verging on intellectual honesty is the last bastion of the man who does not want to acknowledge another's view.

Sniper did acknowledge the view expressed in your posts, as so many others who read your posts can also do. Those posts trip between attempting to appear extremely gullible, based on this being professional cycling and all that entails, and genuinely avoiding connecting hard facts together.

When the blood passport came out G was right up there with a bunch of guys who have since been popped. Fact. Take yourself back to the time Pantani and the rest had been popped and Lance's fans were trying to tell us around 2002 2003 that he was the only guy riding clean. It is that level of intellectual incontinence that earns ridicule. Move the spotlight to recent events at BC. Millar doped in 2003 to win, and had his medal taken off him. Fact. But was "clean" when he was 2nd against a field, rich in dopers, by just a handful of seconds. He keeps his medal because he has been "honest" and told us everything about his doping, and he now is selected by Sutton to counsel youngsters on the perils of doping. Some (i) cretins will believe he is being honest, saying he could beat all those dopers by riding clean, others (ii) will know he is lying and feign gullibility, whilst being intellectually dishonest and then there are many who post here (iii) who joined the dots just as we did with Armstrong before and recognise BS when we see it.

The cold eye of the intelligent observer, with no vested interest in cycling might conclude, that the only thing Sky have really gone to town on, and applied "marginal gains" beyond their competitors, is in ensuring their riders are the most informed and most well supported athletes in the peloton on how to avoid tripping the low grade intelligence test and so not return any positives.

The "new clean generation" have produced as many positives in the sport as ever their predecessors did and with motor doping eventually (what 6 to 16 years after it entered the peloton ?) now being outed, only a moron would think that this is a sport where corruption is not part of the DNA of any long term participants.

I am sure such there is an audience for the kind of intellectually, dyslexic posts that Sniper criticises, but if you post them on this this forum you can expect them to be criticised.

Oh and by the way - play the ball not the man and intellectual DIShonesty was the accusation rightly made of the posts you put up.

Good post.

From memory, I think the year Millar came 2nd (2002?), he was actually leading at all the intermediate time checks and probably would have won, had Ullrich not made a catch and done a 2 up to time trial with that rider all the way to the finish. (Small point).

 

[oldcrank]

Re: Sky

...
Who knows why oldcrank's posts have been removed?

if you need me to explain "off topic trolling" to you, I'll be happy to.

You are so kind. No thanks. I don't want to labour the point, but my own post was as much on topic as many and oldcrank thought fit to support it with more proof that the particular sniping against Sky and Thomas in particular was unwarranted on this occasion. Getting his post removed was the pits, but I have no more to say about it.

I guess I need to add Wildean drollery to my posts!

But on the topic of Team SKY and aerodynamic testing,
I recall a few years back when one of the experts that
developed the technology that Team SKY was using in
the video that bumped this thread appeared on certain
cycling forums...of course his knowledge and expertise
was very threatening to, as our Cav calls them, "internet
forum people." Unfortunately, an actual aero expert no
longer bothers with those forums but now he keeps busy
working with some of the greatest cyclists in the world
...and as for "the internet forum people"...well, they are
a little less informed because of it.

 

[infeXio]

Ohhhhh, Geraint

 

[hfer07]

Re: Sky

Behold!!!

"G" is the new found GC rider

oh man... SKY is really pushing it to the limit, don't they?

 

[May0maniac]

Re: Sky

Behold!!!

"G" is the new found GC rider

oh man... SKY is really pushing it to the limit, don't they?

Durning the Tour he'll go full Ullrich on the Androrra stage.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Sky

Thomas is on my short list to be within 60 seconds of the Dawg come the first MTF at the tour.

 

[Benotti69]

i see Sergio Heano recovered well from his 'Altitude Nativety'..........

Geraint Thomas won the Paris Roubaix as a junior so it only natural that he turns into a GT contender at the grand old age of 29/30, I mean isn't that what Wiggins did

Thomas always had the engine but it has taken Sky 6 years to find it and harness it for GTs.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Thomas is on my short list to be within 60 seconds of the Dawg come the first MTF at the tour.

...
Thomas always had the engine but it has taken Sky 6 years to find it and harness it for GTs.

What is it with Thomas and 6-es?

6 / 10
Linus Gerdemann, Christian Knees, Egoi Martinez, Francesco Reda, Alessandro Petacchi, Mauro Santambrogio, Geraint Thomas

 

[LaFlorecita]

Some fine company there but seriously, I thought today's performance wasn't especially bad, on a serious climb he would have watched Contador's butt disappear in the distance.

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

Some fine company there but seriously, I thought today's performance wasn't especially bad, on a serious climb he would have watched Contador's butt disappear in the distance.

Agree, Thomas was way more ridiculous on PSM in the Tour last year

 

[SeriousSam]

His trajectory over the past year suggests he'll be even better than that at the Tour this year

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Thomas is on my short list to be within 60 seconds of the Dawg come the first MTF at the tour.

...
Thomas always had the engine but it has taken Sky 6 years to find it and harness it for GTs.

What is it with Thomas and 6-es?

6 / 10
Linus Gerdemann, Christian Knees, Egoi Martinez, Francesco Reda, Alessandro Petacchi, Mauro Santambrogio, Geraint Thomas

Reda currently serving an 8 year suspension for EPO. Santambrogio another caught. Petacchi was banned by CAS. Hmm Geraint should mind the company he keeps.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...

Linus Gerdemann, Christian Knees, Egoi Martinez, Francesco Reda, Alessandro Petacchi, Mauro Santambrogio, Geraint Thomas

Reda currently serving an 8 year suspension for EPO. Santambrogio another caught. Petacchi was banned by CAS. Hmm Geraint should mind the company he keeps.

Gerdemann dodgy blood values in 2006: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/gerdemann-denies-doping/
Martinez is a 1+1 (Euskatel+Discovery).
That leaves Knees and Thomas, the two Sky riders, to save the honors.

More to the point: anybody who claims doping in procycling has become less, will have trouble explaining why Thomas is now at his best.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

...

Linus Gerdemann, Christian Knees, Egoi Martinez, Francesco Reda, Alessandro Petacchi, Mauro Santambrogio, Geraint Thomas

Reda currently serving an 8 year suspension for EPO. Santambrogio another caught. Petacchi was banned by CAS. Hmm Geraint should mind the company he keeps.

Gerdemann dodgy blood values in 2006: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/gerdemann-denies-doping/
Martinez is a 1+1 (Euskatel+Discovery).
That leaves Knees and Thomas, the two Sky riders, to save the honors.

The list was spot on.....

 

[LaFlorecita]

Not to mention all the riders below Thomas in the suspiciousness ranking.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Not to mention all the riders below Thomas in the suspiciousness ranking.

I won't bother with the calculations, but from what I can tell, if you take any of the years from 2011 through to 2014, and you calculate the average suspicion index ranking for each team, Sky beats all other teams.

So say, for example in 2012, team X had five riders on the list, total S-I points 20, makes an average of 4.0.
Team Y had four riders on the list, total 22 points, makes an average of 5.5.
Team Z had six riders on the list, 20 points total, makes an average of 3.3,
etc.
Team Sky would come out with the highest average.