Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Miburo]

Glorious day for cycling, let's see how they respond to this one.

But is there now anyone left here that believes sky didn't do anything or are they all gone?

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

What does Mr Fancy Bears tell us about Sky: in the form of tangible evidence?

That Wiggins' 2012 TDF was predicated on him maintaining power at a body weight that could only be maintained with corticosteroids. Officially legit because of the TUE, but this is in no way consistent with their marginal gains narrative. It is explicitly using drugs and the system of rules to maximize power-weight ratio, which they fully understand to be a necessary condition for winning the tour.

By inference, it follows that the template laid down in 2012 was likely followed in subsequent tours.

That is, independent of speculation about using illegal methods - which we can simply bracket here - we have tangible positive evidence that they are willing to utilise chemical methods to maximise power-weight ratios, and that this is a substantive and manifest gain which is unequivocally about chemical methods.

Conclusion: all of this is bleeding obvious to any one who looks, but those who parrot the marginal gains bullocks must contend with this evidence to the contrary.

So my hunch that Leinders was hired as the 'grey areas' doc may not be that far off the mark, and if true Sky can still claim to be 'clean' within the current rules.

Absolutely no one who said Sky were doping 1 week ago, is now going to believe, after wiggins was just caught lying through his teeth, that actually he must have been clean all along

Indeed not, but these TUEs do show that they were using murky / grey areas in my view and as DFA said Leinders knowledge of what was possible 'within the rules' (TUEs etc) would have been invaluable. It would be interesting to know what else was being combined with the cortico - Xenon and Meldonium perhaps.

If you take 2008 wiggins and 2010 Froome and give them the aid of a couple of "murky" "grey area" drugs, they might finish top 100 and top 50 in a gt respectively.

You need a lot more powerful **** to have them dominate the TDF

You are right on everything you said. This just opens the eyes on the naïve people. Not on the people that already knows. Or at least exposes them a little.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

What does Mr Fancy Bears tell us about Sky: in the form of tangible evidence?

That Wiggins' 2012 TDF was predicated on him maintaining power at a body weight that could only be maintained with corticosteroids. Officially legit because of the TUE, but this is in no way consistent with their marginal gains narrative. It is explicitly using drugs and the system of rules to maximize power-weight ratio, which they fully understand to be a necessary condition for winning the tour.

By inference, it follows that the template laid down in 2012 was likely followed in subsequent tours.

That is, independent of speculation about using illegal methods - which we can simply bracket here - we have tangible positive evidence that they are willing to utilise chemical methods to maximise power-weight ratios, and that this is a substantive and manifest gain which is unequivocally about chemical methods.

Conclusion: all of this is bleeding obvious to any one who looks, but those who parrot the marginal gains bullocks must contend with this evidence to the contrary.

So my hunch that Leinders was hired as the 'grey areas' doc may not be that far off the mark, and if true Sky can still claim to be 'clean' within the current rules.

Of course they can still claim this, within the sphere of public knowledge/discourse and it has a certain kind of legalistic validity.

What they can no longer claim is that they have/are not actively and expertly exploiting the grey areas. We now know they are. And it is very visible in that same sphere of public knowledge that such exploitation is foundational to their success. i.e. it is how you turn trackies into climbers, it is how you turn okay climbers into outstanding climbers, it is how you turn nobody's into GT greats. This doesn't happen via marginal gains.

Beyond that, it seems very implausible that they would be so happy and willing to exploit the grey areas of steroid use in order the maximise power-weight and win GT's, whilst maintaining some kind of moral stance against the other necessary chemical-scientific means, namely epo in one of its modern and less detectable incarnations.

We don't *know* of this per se, but the inference is now irresistible. What they're trying to do is maximise performance, win and not get caught breaking doping rules - like everyone else. What they claim is that they are the moral saints of the new era of clean cycling.

 

[meat puppet]

Re:

A genuine question - and do please direct me to where it has been answered if previously asked - but if Froome has used an inhaler since he was a teenager why does he not have pre-2009 TUEs for salbutamol?

Good question. My take is that froome knew he was an asthmatic. He knew. But not fully.

Also, nothing grey about corticoids and asthma stuff really. Just plain PED use.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re:

A genuine question - and do please direct me to where it has been answered if previously asked - but if Froome has used an inhaler since he was a teenager why does he not have pre-2009 TUEs for salbutamol?

Some detection in a sample might not be a positive straight away. Have too much, and a TUE is needed. It's a good idea not to generalize this too much as similar drugs are treated differently. Some have low positive thresholds, others don't, yet both could be similar.

 

[Singer01]

Re: Sky

I'm impressed that the British media is starting to ask the right type of questions, they are starting to get it. Wiggins and Sky certainly have got themselves into a bind. I guess their best move is silence and hope this goes away, perhaps Walsh will write a puff piece on Sunday to calm the waters.

yap.
There seems to be a growing realization that British sports press, personified by David Walsh, have become the laughing stock of social media. And luckily not every british journo will just sit back and watch it happen.
I'm not sure if too many british sports journos will still want to sit next to David.

is this a joke, do you think anybody in the history of the world cares what a bunch of people on the internet think?

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Sky

I'm impressed that the British media is starting to ask the right type of questions, they are starting to get it. Wiggins and Sky certainly have got themselves into a bind. I guess their best move is silence and hope this goes away, perhaps Walsh will write a puff piece on Sunday to calm the waters.

yap.
There seems to be a growing realization that British sports press, personified by David Walsh, have become the laughing stock of social media. And luckily not every british journo will just sit back and watch it happen.
I'm not sure if too many british sports journos will still want to sit next to David.

is this a joke, do you think anybody in the history of the world cares what a bunch of people on the internet think?

You seem upset.

Maybe put in your DVD of Wiggins tdf win, and watch it, pretending everything is ok. That might make you feel better.

 

[buckle]

Re: Sky

Can anyone explain the success of Sky post-Leinders? I do wonder wonder wherher there is more to Leunders than just doping?

 

[pastronef]

Re:

Glorious day for cycling, let's see how they respond to this one.

But is there now anyone left here that believes sky didn't do anything or are they all gone?

glorious day for cycling
what is "cycling" ?
thanks

 

[Savant12]

Re: Sky

Can anyone explain the success of Sky post-Leinders? I do wonder wonder wherher there is more to Leunders than just doping?

You've seen the movie Surrogates? That's Team Sky! Their entire team has been replaced by robots or too pass a blood test, a cybernetic organism. When they're racing the real Team Sky riders are back in some dark room at British Cycling HQ remote controlling their better surrogates.

The next anti-doping step is to X-ray the riders.

 

[buckle]

Re: Sky

Can anyone explain the success of Sky post-Leinders? I do wonder wonder wherher there is more to Leinders than just doping?

You've seen the movie Surrogates? That's Team Sky! Their entire team has been replaced by robots or too pass a blood test, a cybernetic organism. When they're racing the real Team Sky riders are back in some dark room at British Cycling HQ remote controlling their better surrogates.

The next anti-doping step is to X-ray the riders.

Why would DB, who was doping the team prior to 2010 and after Leinder's dismissal, run such a reputational risk in the first place? What occurred in the summer of 2010 to prompt him to effectively press the panic button?

 

[Singer01]

Re: Sky

I'm impressed that the British media is starting to ask the right type of questions, they are starting to get it. Wiggins and Sky certainly have got themselves into a bind. I guess their best move is silence and hope this goes away, perhaps Walsh will write a puff piece on Sunday to calm the waters.

yap.
There seems to be a growing realization that British sports press, personified by David Walsh, have become the laughing stock of social media. And luckily not every british journo will just sit back and watch it happen.
I'm not sure if too many british sports journos will still want to sit next to David.

is this a joke, do you think anybody in the history of the world cares what a bunch of people on the internet think?

You seem upset.

Maybe put in your DVD of Wiggins tdf win, and watch it, pretending everything is ok. That might make you feel better.

I have no idea what you think your comment has to do with my post.

 

[deviant]

So Sky used TUE certs.....wow, that's quite a smoking gun, I mean it's practicality blood bags, EPO vials and bags of steroids (sarcasm mode off).....seriously guys, there is a world of difference from a medical exemption for inhalers and cortisone and the big nasties like Growth Hormone, testosterone, insulin, GW501516 and Aicar etc.

If this was Astana or Tinkoff it'd be a non story but the clinic lives for a good Sky bashing.

 

[Miburo]

Re: Re:

Glorious day for cycling, let's see how they respond to this one.

But is there now anyone left here that believes sky didn't do anything or are they all gone?

glorious day for cycling
what is "cycling" ?
thanks

Me is prob better wording, good point mate

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

So Sky used TUE certs.....wow, that's quite a smoking gun, I mean it's practicality blood bags, EPO vials and bags of steroids (sarcasm mode off).....seriously guys, there is a world of difference from a medical exemption for inhalers and cortisone and the big nasties like Growth Hormone, testosterone, insulin, GW501516 and Aicar etc.

If this was Astana or Tinkoff it'd be a non story but the clinic lives for a good Sky bashing.

sorry Deviant, but you are either obuscating and failing or missing some grey matter.

Sky have been caught lying about how they achieved their GT success with 1 former Gruppetto stalwart. I think this is massive. Remember Sky were the team claiming they were squeaky clean! Remember Sky claimed it has a ZTP policy and were going to do everything clean and transparent.

Well they have been caught lying and if you are going to lie about TUEs what else are they lying about, EPO, AICAR, HGH, motors, etc etc..

So dont try to compare Sky with Astana or Tinkoff as chalk and cheese springs to mind.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Sky

I'm impressed that the British media is starting to ask the right type of questions, they are starting to get it. Wiggins and Sky certainly have got themselves into a bind. I guess their best move is silence and hope this goes away, perhaps Walsh will write a puff piece on Sunday to calm the waters.

yap.
There seems to be a growing realization that British sports press, personified by David Walsh, have become the laughing stock of social media. And luckily not every british journo will just sit back and watch it happen.
I'm not sure if too many british sports journos will still want to sit next to David.

is this a joke, do you think anybody in the history of the world cares what a bunch of people on the internet think?

You seem upset.

Maybe put in your DVD of Wiggins tdf win, and watch it, pretending everything is ok. That might make you feel better.

I have no idea what you think your comment has to do with my post.

I think you do. Plenty care. Did you miss the hashtag fiasco for SkyTV and Mo Farah #askmo? That backfired.

Checkout the #askwiggo for more examples of people in the world caring what sporting stars are lying about!

It may not be of huge importance in the great scheme of things but people dont like being lied to.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Sky

I'm impressed that the British media is starting to ask the right type of questions, they are starting to get it. Wiggins and Sky certainly have got themselves into a bind. I guess their best move is silence and hope this goes away, perhaps Walsh will write a puff piece on Sunday to calm the waters.

yap.
There seems to be a growing realization that British sports press, personified by David Walsh, have become the laughing stock of social media. And luckily not every british journo will just sit back and watch it happen.
I'm not sure if too many british sports journos will still want to sit next to David.

is this a joke, do you think anybody in the history of the world cares what a bunch of people on the internet think?

From what I have seen, most athletes do. And sponsors as well. Image is very important.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

So Sky used TUE certs.....wow, that's quite a smoking gun, I mean it's practicality blood bags, EPO vials and bags of steroids (sarcasm mode off).....seriously guys, there is a world of difference from a medical exemption for inhalers and cortisone and the big nasties like Growth Hormone, testosterone, insulin, GW501516 and Aicar etc.

If this was Astana or Tinkoff it'd be a non story but the clinic lives for a good Sky bashing.

You are right. Just like Hitch said, this is small potatoes really.

Try explaining that to the average public. They don't know the details like you do. They think they were doing really bad stuff. And not with small potatoes!

 

[doperhopper]

Re: Re:

So Sky used TUE certs.....wow, that's quite a smoking gun, I mean it's practicality blood bags, EPO vials and bags of steroids (sarcasm mode off).....seriously guys, there is a world of difference from a medical exemption for inhalers and cortisone and the big nasties like Growth Hormone, testosterone, insulin, GW501516 and Aicar etc.

If this was Astana or Tinkoff it'd be a non story but the clinic lives for a good Sky bashing.

sorry Deviant, but you are either obuscating and failing or missing some grey matter.

Sky have been caught lying about how they achieved their GT success with 1 former Gruppetto stalwart. I think this is massive. Remember Sky were the team claiming they were squeaky clean! Remember Sky claimed it has a ZTP policy and were going to do everything clean and transparent.

Well they have been caught lying and if you are going to lie about TUEs what else are they lying about, EPO, AICAR, HGH, motors, etc etc..

So dont try to compare Sky with Astana or Tinkoff as chalk and cheese springs to mind.

in the meantime... as SkyTUE-gate pops out, Pistolero responds (source CN):

Alberto Contador: Of course I can win another Tour de France

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

So Sky used TUE certs.....wow, that's quite a smoking gun, I mean it's practicality blood bags, EPO vials and bags of steroids (sarcasm mode off).....seriously guys, there is a world of difference from a medical exemption for inhalers and cortisone and the big nasties like Growth Hormone, testosterone, insulin, GW501516 and Aicar etc.

If this was Astana or Tinkoff it'd be a non story but the clinic lives for a good Sky bashing.

sorry Deviant, but you are either obuscating and failing or missing some grey matter.

Sky have been caught lying about how they achieved their GT success with 1 former Gruppetto stalwart. I think this is massive. Remember Sky were the team claiming they were squeaky clean! Remember Sky claimed it has a ZTP policy and were going to do everything clean and transparent.

Well they have been caught lying and if you are going to lie about TUEs what else are they lying about, EPO, AICAR, HGH, motors, etc etc..

So dont try to compare Sky with Astana or Tinkoff as chalk and cheese springs to mind.

Very true, it's common sense that Wiggins was doping. Track rider come Grand Tour was too absurd even for cycling. TUE-gate just confirms what we all knew and that Brailsford/Sky have being doing a lot of lying over the past 6 years. But it's not all their fault, there are a lot of stupid journalists and fans out there who have propagated the margin gains BS and refused to question basic logic.

I don't know where to now for Sky, they currently are staying quiet in the hope that this all goes away or nervous that Fancy has more up his sleeve.

 

[winkybiker]

Re: Sky

I'm impressed that the British media is starting to ask the right type of questions, they are starting to get it. Wiggins and Sky certainly have got themselves into a bind. I guess their best move is silence and hope this goes away, perhaps Walsh will write a puff piece on Sunday to calm the waters.

yap.
There seems to be a growing realization that British sports press, personified by David Walsh, have become the laughing stock of social media. And luckily not every british journo will just sit back and watch it happen.
I'm not sure if too many british sports journos will still want to sit next to David.

is this a joke, do you think anybody in the history of the world cares what a bunch of people on the internet think?

From what I have seen, most athletes do. And sponsors as well. Image is very important.

Image is everything. Look at Lochte. Was he found cheating and his medals stripped? No. He simply destroyed his image and sponsors dropped him immediately. To be fair, that made mainstream news, not some backwater blog. (He'd always struck me as a bit of a ***, but that might just be me.)

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Sky

I'm impressed that the British media is starting to ask the right type of questions, they are starting to get it. Wiggins and Sky certainly have got themselves into a bind. I guess their best move is silence and hope this goes away, perhaps Walsh will write a puff piece on Sunday to calm the waters.

yap.
There seems to be a growing realization that British sports press, personified by David Walsh, have become the laughing stock of social media. And luckily not every british journo will just sit back and watch it happen.
I'm not sure if too many british sports journos will still want to sit next to David.

is this a joke, do you think anybody in the history of the world cares what a bunch of people on the internet think?

From what I have seen, most athletes do. And sponsors as well. Image is very important.

Image is everything. Look at Lochte. Was he found cheating and his medals stripped? No. He simply destroyed his image and sponsors dropped him immediately. To be fair, that made mainstream news, not some backwater blog. (He'd always struck me as a bit of a ****, but that might just be me.)

While no doubt Lochte is a doper, he committed a crime in Brazil. Destroying private property doesn't go down well with normal people.

But winning olympic gold medals while cheating also doesn't sit well, no matter your royal title or not.

 

[thehog]

Re: Sky

I'm impressed that the British media is starting to ask the right type of questions, they are starting to get it. Wiggins and Sky certainly have got themselves into a bind. I guess their best move is silence and hope this goes away, perhaps Walsh will write a puff piece on Sunday to calm the waters.

yap.
There seems to be a growing realization that British sports press, personified by David Walsh, have become the laughing stock of social media. And luckily not every british journo will just sit back and watch it happen.
I'm not sure if too many british sports journos will still want to sit next to David.

is this a joke, do you think anybody in the history of the world cares what a bunch of people on the internet think?

From what I have seen, most athletes do. And sponsors as well. Image is very important.

Image is everything. Look at Lochte. Was he found cheating and his medals stripped? No. He simply destroyed his image and sponsors dropped him immediately. To be fair, that made mainstream news, not some backwater blog. (He'd always struck me as a bit of a ****, but that might just be me.)

Lochte has been suspended until August next year, he will miss the worlds, fined by US swimming and lost most of his sponsors. He is now on Dancing with the Stars, so not all is lost!

Wiggo to make a comeback as a dancer?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Sky

Can anyone explain the success of Sky post-Leinders? I do wonder wonder wherher there is more to Leunders than just doping?

Look up the number of events ASO is producing in Britain since the implausible grand tour win by a good track rider. Everybody that matters in cycling is making money in the UK now.

 

[pastronef]

Re: Sky

Can anyone explain the success of Sky post-Leinders? I do wonder wonder wherher there is more to Leunders than just doping?

Look up the number of events ASO is producing in Britain since the implausible grand tour win by a good track rider. Everybody that matters in cycling is making money in the UK now.

before the win
Tour start 2007


after the win:

Tour Start 2014
and Yorkshire Tour